When Science contradicts Religion

[JapaneseKappa]

Poor example. It says it was a misdiagnosis. Any misdiagnosis can result in death. I just read the conversion story of Jimmy Aiken. His wife died of a misdiagnosis (they eventually correctly identified the problem as cancer, but by then it was way too late.

On the other hand, when and exorcism is required but medical treatment is offered, there is no advantage to the patient. The church requests doctors to rule out disease prior to an exorcism. Exorcism is NOT an effective treatment for disease. It never was considered one.

The obvious reality is that *all *diagnoses of demonic activity are misdiagnoses. In fact, there isn’t even an objective method to make the diagnosis in the first place, priests are simply expected to “divine” whether or not demonic activity is involved. In contrast, while tests for other diseases are not 100% accurate and their results can be misinterpreted, the tests are at least objective and have quantified accuracies. In this day and age, proposing demons as an explanation of symptoms is as intellectually and scientifically serious as thinking someone is cursed by witchcraft or that their humors and biles are out of whack. In spite of this, the church still thinks that it is worthwhile to perform exorcisms.

If the girl had gotten better on her own, you would have claimed it as a success; the only way you “know” it was a misdiagnosis was that it didn’t work. This is the very definition of confirmation bias; only the anecdotes in favor of exorcisms count.

In light of the many diagnostic failures, even the Catholic Encyclopedia backs away from declaring any case of demonic possession an unambiguous success:

A Catholic is not asked to accept all the cases of diabolical possession recorded in the history of the Church, nor even to form any definite opinion on the historical evidence in favour of any particular case.

That means a Catholic is allowed to believe that in the history of the church, no exorcisms were ever successful because they never successfully diagnosed demonic possession (unless you count Jesus.)

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Very well, if they were that means Cain and Seth either mated with one of these other creatures (to be human, one must have a human soul) or (God forbid) their own mother or any sisters to follow.

Again, why is creation reliant on sin?

This is a much better framework for your question. I think the key to an answer is to ask the question, “Why is bestiality or incest wrong?” They aren’t wrong just because God said so. I suspect that the reasons these things are wrong might not apply to the very special circumstance of an almost entirely unpopulated world.

At any rate, I’m rather inclined to say that the historicity of Adam and Eve could be completely rejected without touching upon the evidence for the central dogmas of the Christian faith. The Adam and Eve story is a rather peripheral dogma, and in many ways not at all dogmatically held by the Church.

You picked two very bad examples for your argument. Sickle Cell anemia is most prevalent in Africans who also live in the areas most infested with malaria. Are you aware those who posess sickle cell are immune to malaria?

Likewise, many autistic also display the traits of a “Savant”; they are socially awkward and yet excel in other fields, notably the sciences. Many of the worlds leading mathematicians, Physicists and computer developers have been autistic.

No, this is why I like those examples. Because I think it’s likely that there are other extremely good traits associated with same-sex attraction, just like there are good traits associated with both those other conditions. This doesn’t mean that having sickle cell anemia or autism is a good thing.

Oh they’ll become paler certainly, but certainly not in the short timeframe that even a very loose allegorical interpretation of Genesis requires.

The allegorical interpretation doesn’t involve a short timeframe. On the allegorical interpretation, Adam could have existed 1 billion years before Jesus did – it makes no difference. The allegorical interpretation follows science for its cues about the timeline.

 

[MarkInOregon]

It’s probably not the best example but it’s the more recent one I’ve come across. How as Catholics do you reconcile things like this? Is “there is no conflict between science and faith” more an ideal than a reality? Because when we look back into history there are several episodes like this, Galileo’s proof that the Ptolemaic Geocentric understanding of the universe being incorrect easily being the most famous but not the only one.

Perhaps you should look more closely at the Galileo case–from the above I’m not sure you have a proper understanding of the case.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[Valiente88]

This is a much better framework for your question. I think the key to an answer is to ask the question, “Why is bestiality or incest wrong?” They aren’t wrong just because God said so. I suspect that the reasons these things are wrong might not apply to the very special circumstance of an almost entirely unpopulated world.

That’s quite true, but even if we leave the morality of the act aside as I did with the homosexual aspect we are still faced with another genetic quandary.

I don’t know if you’ve read much concerning efforts to save certain endangered species in captivity through intense breeding programs but zoologists and vetinarians are facing a momentous task by the time the third generation is born. Any inbred animal is born with a weaker immune system than a more genetically varied counterpart, and the closer the siblings are the worse the condition becomes. It doesn’t just end with that one animal however, for up to three generations after that again the decendants of an inbred creature are weaker, shorter and have shorter lifespans (aren’t early humans supposed to have lived for centuries?) than their non-unbred counterparts. If humanity was this inbred, it would have died out before the twelfth generation. Just look at some of the genetic diseases infesting European royalty during the 1800’s, and they had a far wider genepool!

We’re not even accounting for physical deformities here that would have made survival difficult if not impossible, but just genetic instability from a shallow gene pool. It’s not just one couple that isn’t enough, one hundred couples would not be able to provide a wide enough genetic base.

At any rate, I’m rather inclined to say that the historicity of Adam and Eve could be completely rejected without touching upon the evidence for the central dogmas of the Christian faith. The Adam and Eve story is a rather peripheral dogma, and in many ways not at all dogmatically held by the Church.

Oh I don’t think protestants like the Anglicans will have any difficulty reconciling things like this with their teachings, after all they’ve never claimed inerrancy and have modified several of their practices when new developments in social justice, theology or the sciences have come to light. The Catholic church however will find some unease explaining this in relation to the Dogma of Papal Infalliability however.

Was it Pius XII who wrote regarding evolution? How it is acceptable to hold to “Theistic Evolution” so long as belief remained that Adam and Eve was the common source of all humanity (I honestly do not recall, but one of them did). To deny the literal parenthood of Adam and Eve of all humanity was clearly labelled a heretical proposition.

I don’t think most non-literalist Christians, or most Cafateria Catholics for that matter will care. It does pose a problem for those who say the Church cannot err in matters of faith, because in this case it clearly has.

No, this is why I like those examples. Because I think it’s likely that there are other extremely good traits associated with same-sex attraction, just like there are good traits associated with both those other conditions. This doesn’t mean that having sickle cell anemia or autism is a good thing.

It doesn’t automatically mean it is a bad thing either as the Church would have us believe. Even if you do not act upon it, it is still disordered, something to be shunned and kept tucked away.

Maybe it doesn’t fit into a cute 50’s American idyll of what makes a perfect family, but no family or relationship is perfect. I know I’d certainly rather embrace the variety within society than enforce a monotone standard.

Damnit, I’m derailing now . I am not going to let this turn into into an argument on yes/no for homosexuality.

The allegorical interpretation doesn’t involve a short timeframe. On the allegorical interpretation, Adam could have existed 1 billion years before Jesus did – it makes no difference. The allegorical interpretation follows science for its cues about the timeline.

The problem here is that to achieve the genetic diversity from such a small common source of human souls (supposing the inbreds survived) would have taken an exceedingly long amount of time, and while there is evidence (from how our understanding of genetics works and from archeology) that single source theory cannot be and much the support that, there is little or nothing, indeed little more than the Hebrew Bible and Church Tradition that says otherwise.

 

[MarkInOregon]

1. Regardless to an individuals views on the morality of homosexual acts, the Catholic Church teaches the desire to commit them are gravely disordered, a disorder again arising from sin which had humanity not fallen into would not exist. With exception to a few hedge psychologists who are ridiculed by the rest of the profession, modern mental health authorities are certain without any doubt that Homosexual impulses are in no way disordered, merely one of many potential traits such as not liking the taste of strawberries.

What makes modern psychologists the arbiters of what is and is not disordered? If in a few years they start to tell us the pedophile impulses are entirely natural and are in no way disordered and define it a a feature of every species and perfectly normal–are you going to sign off on it? When this happens will you come here and tell us that pedophilia is merely one of many potential traits such as not liking the taste of strawberries. Of course by then it won’t be called pedophilia – we’ll just refer to those with the trait as minor attracted individuals.

The peace of Chrsit,
Mark

 

[Valiente88]

What makes modern psychologists the arbiters of what is and is not disordered?

In my case it is because I am a mental health professional, and research in the field by my more scholarly colleagues has yielded more than adequate evidence to show that there is no external “trauma” that causes homosexuality, neither is it a disorder that requires treatment. Quite frankly because there is no “cure”, because it is not a mental illness or disorder.

If in a few years they start to tell us the pedophile impulses are entirely natural and are in no way disordered and define it a a feature of every species and perfectly normal–are you going to sign off on it?

You know…I’ve only ever heard Christians campaigning against the LGBT movement and a couple of “quacks” who probably got their diplomas in the mail say this. No one else, ever. I can assure you, it is very, very, very, very unlikley Psychiatry will change it’s stance on Pedophilla. The only reason we don’t say never is because we’re not infallible, and we are always open to potential new evidence.

That said, we are 99.99999% certain this will never change.

Pedophilia has several potential external causes, and can be deduced as a social disorder due to a lack of empathy and an inability to recognise the thoughts of others in those who experience it. Homosexuality varies in that it does not, and (short of stress and trauma thrust upon them from persecution) homosexuals are otherwise perfectly healthy individuals.

When this happens will you come here and tell us that pedophilia is merely one of many potential traits such as not liking the taste of strawberries. Of course by then it won’t be called pedophilia – we’ll just refer to those with the trait as minor attracted individuals.

Pedophilia is a mental disorder, homosexuality is not. I am qualified to make a definitive statement on this matter.

I’m sorry it doesn’t match what an ancient institution thinks, but fact is fact.

I think a panel of highly qualified experts, the greatest and most academic practitioners of the Psychiatric and Medical professions knows a great deal more about the workings of the mind and brain than elderly Clerics, most of them sheltered from outside society who likely have never studied it. On this one it is not Science that has stepped outside of its domain, it’s Religion.

 

[MarkInOregon]

In my case it is because I am a mental health professional, and research in the field by my more scholarly colleagues has yielded more than adequate evidence to show that there is no external “trauma” that causes homosexuality, neither is it a disorder that requires treatment. Quite frankly because there is no “cure”, because it is not a mental illness or disorder.

You know…I’ve only ever heard Christians campaigning against the LGBT movement and a couple of “quacks” who probably got their diplomas in the mail say this. No one else, ever. I can assure you, it is very, very, very, very unlikley Psychiatry will change it’s stance on Pedophilla. The only reason we don’t say never is because we’re not infallible, and we are always open to potential new evidence.

That said, we are 99.99999% certain this will never change.

Pedophilia has several potential external causes, and can be deduced as a social disorder due to a lack of empathy and an inability to recognise the thoughts of others in those who experience it. Homosexuality varies in that it does not, and (short of stress and trauma thrust upon them from persecution) homosexuals are otherwise perfectly healthy individuals.

Pedophilia is a mental disorder, homosexuality is not. I am qualified to make a definitive statement on this matter.

I’m sorry it doesn’t match what an ancient institution thinks, but fact is fact.

I think a panel of highly qualified experts, the greatest and most academic practitioners of the Psychiatric and Medical professions knows a great deal more about the workings of the mind and brain than elderly Clerics, most of them sheltered from outside society who likely have never studied it. On this one it is not Science that has stepped outside of its domain, it’s Religion.

Did your profession ever make any claims regarding homosexuality similar to what you are now claiming regarding pedophilia? If there was new evidence regarding the origin of pedophilia–would that change your belief on the morality of the action?

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[Valiente88]

Did your profession ever make any claims regarding homosexuality similar to what you are now claiming regarding pedophilia?

Yes it did, but it is difficult to explain why, with different people giving different answers.

The most accepted explanations as to why Homosexuality was considered a mental disorder for a time are these…

1. Psychiatry in its early days as a fledgling field was strongly influenced by an almost Imperialistic and then devout European cultural perspective as to what constitutes “normal” behavior. Naturally, since the rise of Christianity homosexuals have been routinely condemned and at times actively persecuted in the western world and this history strongly influenced what was considered “healthy”. Since Homosexual desires were condemned by the culture and were not universal to all humans, they were not thought to be natural, rather an aberration. It was only much later when it shed such a narrow perspective and research began to yield data that the profession realized homosexuality was not a disorder, nor could it be cured or require treatment.
2. Rather like the Congregation of the Faith’s condemnation of Heliocentrism Western culture, then still strongly influenced by traditional conservative Christian conceptions of the world simply would not accept Homosexuality as not being a disorder, regardless as to any evidence saying otherwise. It was only when the sexual revolution came could we safely explore this topic.

I personally subscribe to the first proposition.

If there was new evidence regarding the origin of pedophilia–would that change your belief on the morality of the action?

The peace of Christ,
Mark

I’m not entirely sure how this is relevant, I’m talking about the Church’s teaching on the origin of homosexual desires rather than any morality concerning them but no it wouldn’t.

My system of morality is much the same as most others within liberal western societies in that it is largely based on consent rather than absolute dictates. A full grown man can consent to being penetrated by another man, a young boy has not yet acquired the maturity to make such a decision for himself.

 

[edwest2]

Catholic dogma states: The whole human race stems from one single human pair. (Sent. certs.)

and there is also: Catechism of the Catholic Church:

375 The Church, interpreting the symbolism of biblical language in an authentic way, in the light of the New Testament and Tradition, teaches that our first parents, Adam and Eve, were constituted in an original “state of holiness and justice”

390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.

As OP points out - there is massive reasoned scientifice evidence that there was no single first couple in human genetic lineage. We know that the mythology of Adam and Eve is made up… pretend.

The case OP is pointing out is, to me extremely strong.

From a Catholic Answers tract:

"Adam and Eve: Real People

"It is equally impermissible to dismiss the story of Adam and Eve and the fall (Gen. 2–3) as a fiction. A question often raised in this context is whether the human race descended from an original pair of two human beings (a teaching known as monogenism) or a pool of early human couples (a teaching known as polygenism).

"In this regard, Pope Pius XII stated: “When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parents of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now, it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the teaching authority of the Church proposed with regard to original sin which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam in which through generation is passed onto all and is in everyone as his own” (Humani Generis 37).

“The story of the creation and fall of man is a true one, even if not written entirely according to modern literary techniques. The Catechism states, “The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents” (CCC 390).”

Peace,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

They still believe exorcisms are effective treatments for disease. People have died because of it.

That is incorrect.

"Some of the classic signs of possession by a demon, Bishop Paprocki said, include speaking in a language the person has never learned; extraordinary shows of strength; a sudden aversion to spiritual things like holy water or the name of God; and severe sleeplessness, lack of appetite and cutting, scratching and biting the skin.

“A person who claims to be possessed must be evaluated by doctors to rule out a mental or physical illness, according to Vatican guidelines issued in 1999, which superseded the previous guidelines, issued in 1614.”

Peace,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

In my case it is because I am a mental health professional, and research in the field by my more scholarly colleagues has yielded more than adequate evidence to show that there is no external “trauma” that causes homosexuality, neither is it a disorder that requires treatment. Quite frankly because there is no “cure”, because it is not a mental illness or disorder.

You know…I’ve only ever heard Christians campaigning against the LGBT movement and a couple of “quacks” who probably got their diplomas in the mail say this. No one else, ever. I can assure you, it is very, very, very, very unlikley Psychiatry will change it’s stance on Pedophilla. The only reason we don’t say never is because we’re not infallible, and we are always open to potential new evidence.

That said, we are 99.99999% certain this will never change.

Pedophilia has several potential external causes, and can be deduced as a social disorder due to a lack of empathy and an inability to recognise the thoughts of others in those who experience it. Homosexuality varies in that it does not, and (short of stress and trauma thrust upon them from persecution) homosexuals are otherwise perfectly healthy individuals.

Pedophilia is a mental disorder, homosexuality is not. I am qualified to make a definitive statement on this matter.

I’m sorry it doesn’t match what an ancient institution thinks, but fact is fact.

I think a panel of highly qualified experts, the greatest and most academic practitioners of the Psychiatric and Medical professions knows a great deal more about the workings of the mind and brain than elderly Clerics, most of them sheltered from outside society who likely have never studied it. On this one it is not Science that has stepped outside of its domain, it’s Religion.

Regarding pedophilia, it’s been relabeled.

americansfortruth.com/2011/08/25/firsthand-report-on-b4u-act-conference-for-minor-attracted-persons-aims-at-normalizing-pedophilia/

Peace,
Ed

 

[Valiente88]

That is incorrect.

"Some of the classic signs of possession by a demon, Bishop Paprocki said, include speaking in a language the person has never learned; extraordinary shows of strength; a sudden aversion to spiritual things like holy water or the name of God; and severe sleeplessness, lack of appetite and cutting, scratching and biting the skin.

“A person who claims to be possessed must be evaluated by doctors to rule out a mental or physical illness, according to Vatican guidelines issued in 1999, which superseded the previous guidelines, issued in 1614.”

Peace,
Ed

To my knowledge Fr. Amorth is still the chief exorcist of the Catholic Church, and so long as his position exists Exorcism is still publicly acknowledged as a tool of the Catholic Church.

That case with that German girl was rather unfair for the church, after all it does sound like they were unwilling to do it at first but even still…They believed enough to do it in the end, and the girl suffered terrible injuries as a result of it such as crushed kneecaps from the constant genuflections in the final months before her death.

They even dug her up later because they believed so strongly that she was possessed and suffering for something that she may have been an incorruptible rather like St. Bernadette is thought by Catholics to be.

 

[grannymh]

Divine Revelation trumps.

 

[edwest2]

Science cannot define or describe non material concepts that cannot be objectively observed like a human soul that is true. What it can tell us with near certainty however is that humanity cannot all have a single couple at the top of the family tree for the entirety of the Human race.

The Catholic Church has infallibly taught that we are all descended from Adam and Eve; the Human Genome Project has showed us this cannot be correct. I as a white woman with a white spouse cannot give birth to a black baby, we are expected to presume one couples offspring are the source of all of humanities genetic diversity.

Why Jesus was born is a topic much of Christianity can’t even decide on, so it would be unwise for me to stick my two cents in on that matter. It’s also something Science has little concern with.

What it does concern itself with is the function and development of the material world and the human mind, neither could the world have sustained itself or human beings have been sentient without the fall, something that was said to be unintended by God.

Why is Gods master plan reliant on sin? It’s a whole other topic, If I am to go into the realm of the impossibility of a being to be both omnipotent and all good it’s best done on a separate thread.

I’ll have a read of this, thank you for the link. I have heard it said many times that homosexuality is a mental disease that has only been removed under political pressure but I personally do think this seems very unlikely and occurs with far too great a regularity and with the absence of a cause…

Regarding your last paragraph, you’re welcome. Here is a more recent example that you may find relevant:

“Whereas previously a man who “self-identified” as a woman (or vice versa) could have been classified as mentally ill, now the DSM-5 uses the term “gender dysphoria,” which means it is only a mental illness if you’re troubled by this self-identification. Elated activists in the “LGBT” community had lobbied the APA for the change for years.”

Source: ncregister.com/daily-news/psychiatrys-new-normal-transgendered-persons#ixzz3C6R93DSm

Peace,
Ed

 

[Valiente88]

Regarding pedophilia, it’s been relabeled.

americansfortruth.com/2011/08/25/firsthand-report-on-b4u-act-conference-for-minor-attracted-persons-aims-at-normalizing-pedophilia/

Peace,
Ed

Of course it hasn’t. A few quacks does not an overhaul of our understanding of human sexuality make. This conference was campaigning for a re-evaluation, and since there was only fifty individuals in attendance, most of them convicted pedophiles themselves this will not be forthcoming.

This is two psychologists views on pedophilia, I can assure you it is not the majority of the profession.

 

[Valiente88]

Divine Revelation trumps.

Which one? The Koran? The Bible? The Vedas? The Diamond Sutra? Or perhaps you’re rather partial to the Flying Spaghetti Monsters pirate cookbook or the Oracle of the invisible pink unicorn?

The world cannot agree on what constitutes divine revelation, but we can agree on how genetics work.

 

[grannymh]

When Science contradicts Religion …

Divine Revelation trumps.

Which one? The Koran? The Bible? The Vedas? The Diamond Sutras? Or perhaps you’re rather partial to the Flying Sphagetti monsters pirate cookbook?

The world cannot agree on what constitutes divine revelation, but we can agree on how genetics works.

That is not God’s problem.

 

[truthseeker95]

“May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written, ‘That You may be justified in Your words, and prevail when You are judged.’”
–Romans 3:4

“O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith.” --1 Timothy 6:20-21

“The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever.” --Isaiah 40:8

 

[Valiente88]

“May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written, ‘That You may be justified in Your words, and prevail when You are judged.’”
–Romans 3:4

“O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: Which some professing have erred concerning the faith.” --1 Timothy 6:20-21

“The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever.” --Isaiah 40:8

Yeah…I don’t know if you’re new to apologetics, but quoting scripture at non belivers generally doesn’t win people round to your view. The bible is the claim, not the evidence.

 

[edwest2]

Yeah…I don’t know if you’re new to apologetics, but quoting scripture at non belivers generally doesn’t win people round to your view. The bible is the claim, not the evidence.

This forum is called Catholic Answers, right

Peace,
Ed