When the mass becomes a circus

[Jimsdun]

This was at a Life Teen mass of course.

During the announcements, two young persons were recognized for some sort of acheivement or ministry they are involved in. I do not recall exactly what, but whatever the ministry was undoubtedly honorable and good,

What was wrong is this: People actually stood up and applauded. It was a standing ovation. This might be fine for a club or a performance, but this is suppose to be the holy sacrifice of the mass, and the glory is supposed to be given to God, not these “performers.”. And although there can be some levity during the announcements, there is such a thing as abuse and going too far.

You would think that people who attend this mass were never instructed and never baptized, but just wandered in off the street. I think that a lot of them do.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Haha, if you consider that the Mass becoming a circus, you ought to consider yourself extremely lucky. You must get to experience some of the best Masses around!

I entirely sympathize with you. I despise clapping during Mass. Here is something I recently posted on another site regarding it:

hate clapping in Mass. However, what I hate most of all is clapping during homilies.

This is sometimes regarded as a good thing. Even the very traditional minded Fr. Z seemed pleased that folks clapped during Pope Benedict’s Yankee Stadium Mass. However, it’s a serious problem for me, for one very important reason:

Clapping is a sign of approval. We listening to homilies have nothing to approve of.

It is not up to us to approve or to disapprove of a homily. It is up to us to listen to it, humbly learn from it, and try our best to follow it in our lives. If we clap for a homily, that gives the indication that our opinion matters. It doesn’t.

Of course, I am not ruling out a Catholic being pleased to hear a pro-life homily, sin mentioned, or any of the other things which don’t happen enough. I am also not ruling out a Catholic recognizing a heresy being preached.

The point is that heresy being preached is an extreme case, and that if we are pleased with the homily, that just means the priest is doing his job. We should listen and learn from him. Our opinion doesn’t matter.

Peace and God bless

So you can see, my feelings on this are rather strong. I say that to put it in perspective when I say that clapping in recognition for someone during the announcements does not constitute a circus. I would most definitely rather not have this. In fact, I think I would rather not have announcements at all. They don’t seem to fit into the spirit of the Liturgy, but at the same time, it does seem like something that must be done, so on that issue I can’t give a firm opinion (though I’d love to hear others’).

There are far, far, far worse things than clapping over an announcement. At this point, the Mass is basically over, minus the final blessing. The Word has been proclaimed and the Sacrifice reverently (hopefully) offered. In fact, the only thing left is really the one part of Mass that is not done directly in worship of God. Everything else is directly oriented toward God in one way or another, but the final blessing is for the congregation, so the God-centered, prayerful stuff is all done. The congregation’s total and direct self-giving, in other words, is now over. Therefore, I don’t see clapping as really infringing on the Sanctity of the Mass in the way you describe. It’s certainly not a circus. The Mass is a circus when there is Liturgical dance, goofy vestments, abundant “we, us, I” rather than “He, Him” stuff.

I don’t approve of it at all, but if everything else is so good that you find this to be circus-like, you’ve got yourself a fantastic Mass each weekend.

 

[Pong]

First of all, had Mass even started? You said this was during the announcements, which are themselves best reserved for the time directly preceeding or proceeding the Mass itself. If this was the case, then no harm was done. If this was not the case, then although I can understand your frustration, do you really not have anything else to be upset about? These are teenagers doing something positive and the recognition of that fact (although misplaced) has your knickers in a twist?! Honestly. There are worse things in the world to be upset about.

 

[Jimsdun]

First of all, had Mass even started? You said this was during the announcements, which are themselves best reserved for the time directly preceeding or proceeding the Mass itself. If this was the case, then no harm was done. If this was not the case, then although I can understand your frustration, do you really not have anything else to be upset about? These are teenagers doing something positive and the recognition of that fact (although misplaced) has your knickers in a twist?! Honestly. There are worse things in the world to be upset about.

This was DURING the mass. Announcements always immediately follow the Eucharist, but they sometimes emphasize the announcements so heavily that everything preceding is immediately forgetton, so there is no time for Eucharistic meditation.

and BTW it is the ADULTS who attend the LTM who are the worst offenders, and not the teenagers themselves.

 

[b_justb]

but this is suppose to be the holy sacrifice of the mass, and **the glory is supposed to be given to God, not **these “performers.”

Isn’t this the same argument given by non-Catholics against praying with and to the Saints? Do we detract from glorifying God when we recognize God in the actions and attitudes of His creations? Isn’t that the standard Catholic come back to that argument? Why wouldn’t that apply here?

 

[GemmaRose]

This was at a Life Teen mass of course.

During the announcements, two young persons were recognized for some sort of acheivement or ministry they are involved in. I do not recall exactly what, but whatever the ministry was undoubtedly honorable and good,

What was wrong is this: People actually stood up and applauded. It was a standing ovation. This might be fine for a club or a performance, but this is suppose to be the holy sacrifice of the mass, and the glory is supposed to be given to God, not these “performers.”. And although there can be some levity during the announcements, there is such a thing as abuse and going too far.

You would think that people who attend this mass were never instructed and never baptized, but just wandered in off the street. I think that a lot of them do.

Honest to goodness! Untwist those knickers of yours! :tsktsk:

Whatever it was that those young folks did that was so good probably well deserved a standing ovation! How petty to want to deprive them of that. Did you ever stop to think that their good works were performed because of their being filled with God’s grace and that by commending them, people are also praising God?

Clapping is the VERY LEAST of the problems in the Church today. I, for one, am more upset over the approximately 70% of “Catholics” who do not believe in the Real Presence.

Pong posted:

First of all, had Mass even started? You said this was during the announcements, which are themselves best reserved for the time directly preceeding or proceeding the Mass itself.

This is true. However,

1. If such an announcement is made before Mass begins,

a) only about half the congregation is there; the whole congregation doesn’t usually arrive until about the proclamation of the Gospel; and

b) there will be complaints that someone’s Rosary is being interrupted or their prayer time is being interrupted, as though there aren’t 24 hours in a day for these activities.

1. If such an announcement is made after Mass is ended, the only people left in church will be the families of the teens being congratulated, along with some of their friends. (As a priest I know once announced at the very end of Mass, “Could you let me get to the door first?”)

Personally, although I don’t really care for announcements at any time during Mass, I think they would be less disruptive after Communion if it wasn’t for the current trend of rushing through the distribution of Communion so quickly that if you’re near the end of the line of communicants, it may be announcement time before you get back to your seat!

 

[ethelzguy]

Honest to goodness! Untwist those knickers of yours! :tsktsk:

Whatever it was that those young folks did that was so good probably well deserved a standing ovation! How petty to want to deprive them of that. Did you ever stop to think that their good works were performed because of their being filled with God’s grace and that by commending them, people are also praising God?

Clapping is the VERY LEAST of the problems in the Church today. I, for one, am more upset over the approximately 70% of “Catholics” who do not believe in the Real Presence.

Pong posted:

This is true. However,

1. If such an announcement is made before Mass begins,

a) only about half the congregation is there; the whole congregation doesn’t usually arrive until about the proclamation of the Gospel; and

b) there will be complaints that someone’s Rosary is being interrupted or their prayer time is being interrupted, as though there aren’t 24 hours in a day for these activities.

1. If such an announcement is made after Mass is ended, the only people left in church will be the families of the teens being congratulated, along with some of their friends. (As a priest I know once announced at the very end of Mass, “Could you let me get to the door first?”)

Personally, although I don’t really care for announcements at any time during Mass, I think they would be less disruptive after Communion if it wasn’t for the current trend of rushing through the distribution of Communion so quickly that if you’re near the end of the line of communicants, it may be announcement time before you get back to your seat!

Couldn’t have said it better myself. The common practice anywhere I’ve been to Mass, is to do the announcements after the tabernacle is closed and before the final blessing.

Our priest uses that time to do many things besides announcements, like special blessings on Mother’s/Father’s Day, blessings for expectant mothers, congratulating graduating HS seniors in the parish, etc. When the HS seniors graduate, he makes it a point to addtionally recognize the altar servers he’s about to lose to college.

He also uses this time to recognize 50th anniversary couples and present them with the papal blessing.

 

[benedictgal]

Again, this is what happens when we put so much focus on the horizontal while completely ignoring the vertical. Francis Cardinal Arinze noted this in an statement three years ago:

But when all is said and done, we have to come back to the fact that the Mass is not there to entertain people. Such horizontalism would be out of place. People do not come to Mass in order to admire the preacher, or the choir or the readers. The priority movement or direction of the Mass is vertical, toward God, not horizontal, toward one another. What the people need is a faith-filled celebration, a spiritual experience which draws them to God and therefore also to their neighbor. As a by-product, such a celebration will capture the people’s interest and attention.

While the scenario presented by the OP is a little different than what Cardinal Arinze indicates, the concept is still the same. Furthermore, people had just received Holy Communion. They are supposed to spending time in prayer and contemplation, not clapping and standing to honor the kids. Inasmuch as these kids may have done something noble, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not the time for such recognition. If you want to honor the kids, save it for a special reception at the parish hall or put an annuoncement in the bulletin heralding the accomplishment. Don’t use Mass time for this.

Unfortunately, LifeTeen is not known for its orthodoxy, so, for this setting, it was par for the course.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

This was at a Life Teen mass of course.

During the announcements, two young persons were recognized for some sort of acheivement or ministry they are involved in. I do not recall exactly what, but whatever the ministry was undoubtedly honorable and good,

What was wrong is this: People actually stood up and applauded. It was a standing ovation. This might be fine for a club or a performance, but this is suppose to be the holy sacrifice of the mass, and the glory is supposed to be given to God, not these “performers.”. And although there can be some levity during the announcements, there is such a thing as abuse and going too far.

You would think that people who attend this mass were never instructed and never baptized, but just wandered in off the street. I think that a lot of them do.

Actually, they are being given to God, but through the actions of the youth. The youth are instruments that are used to make the world better through their works.

 

[bilop]

I’ve always heard that applause was OK if it was spontaneous (not “let’s give them a round of applause”) and for a truly unique occasion, like ordination, marriage, 50th anniversary of a priest, etc. I believe, applause is actually called for in the ordination rite.

However, it is completely out of place for run of the mill reasons, like for the choirs performance, etc.

God Bless

 

[agapewolf]

While the Unfortunately, LifeTeen is not known for its orthodoxy, so, for this setting, it was par for the course.

You’ve got your terminology mixed up. lifeteen is WELL KNOWN for teaching 100%orthodox teaching.

Lifeteen has never made a point of clapping for teenagers accomplishments.

Watch your libel and slander.

 

[benedictgal]

You’ve got your terminology mixed up. lifeteen is WELL KNOWN for teaching 100%orthodox teaching.

Lifeteen has never made a point of clapping for teenagers accomplishments.

Watch your libel and slander.

It is not libel not is it slander. If that were the case, then why did Rome have to intervene and have LifeTeen cease and desist having the kids around the altar, have the rock-music atmosphere during the liturgies and refrain from having the priest say “The Mass never ends.”

Unfortunately, these are realities that crop up in these Masses. Just because your program doesn’t have them doesn’t mean they don’t exist elsewhere.

The Neocatechumenals are a good example. They are the adult version of LifeTeen. They have been told explicitly by Rome to cease and desist many of their practices, but, a lot of the communities have maintained the status quo.

You can defend a program and love it to death; but, turning a blind eye to problems that exist is wrong. Recall, that even the Synod Fathers had issues with Youth Masses, especially the music used at these liturgies, to the point that they listed this as a shadow that needed to be corrected.

Clapping, unfortunately, is a progression when the Mass is not taken seriously.

 

[allhers]

I have always heard that you ought not to clap unless the Priest do so first.

 

[agapewolf]

It is not libel not is it slander. If that were the case, then why did Rome have to intervene and have LifeTeen cease and desist having the kids around the altar, have the rock-music atmosphere during the liturgies and refrain from having the priest say “The Mass never ends.”

.

It IS libel, as you said they are not known for orthodoxy. Which is a lie.

2nd, Rome did not “intervene” regarding things in the way that you have said. I have corrected you numerous times in many other threads. Get the facts straight and stop making things up. Adoremus added their own spin. I have PROVEN you wrong on this many times before.

And liturgical practices are not the same as “orthodoxy” regarding church teaching. Your statement is slanderous.

 

[GemmaRose]

It IS libel, as you said they are not known for orthodoxy. Which is a lie.

2nd, Rome did not “intervene” regarding things in the way that you have said. I have corrected you numerous times in many other threads. Get the facts straight and stop making things up. Adoremus added their own spin. I have PROVEN you wrong on this many times before.

And liturgical practices are not the same as “orthodoxy” regarding church teaching. Your statement is slanderous.

Agapewolf, don’t be a killjoy! Don’t you know this is Benedictgal’s favorite hobby? This and longwindedly quoting Church documents?

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

It IS libel, as you said they are not known for orthodoxy. Which is a lie.

2nd, Rome did not “intervene” regarding things in the way that you have said. I have corrected you numerous times in many other threads. Get the facts straight and stop making things up. Adoremus added their own spin. I have PROVEN you wrong on this many times before.

And liturgical practices are not the same as “orthodoxy” regarding church teaching. Your statement is slanderous.

I’m not a life teen fan. With that being said, I was surprised to see that they are being endorsed by the Auxilary bishop of St. Louis, MO. St. Louis, and their diocese are known for faithfulness to the Church.

 

[agapewolf]

I’m not a life teen fan. With that being said, I was surprised to see that they are being endorsed by the Auxilary bishop of St. Louis, MO. St. Louis, and their diocese are known for faithfulness to the Church.

No need to be surprised. The auxillary helped to get it going here. He is on the board of directors. The archbishop loves the program. One of the first things he did here was celebrate the Lifeteen mass at the parish that is very successful at it. He is extremely supportive of the ministry here. 3 of our 4 priests ordained last year were from the program.

The LT program is 100% faithful to the church.

 

[benedictgal]

It IS libel, as you said they are not known for orthodoxy. Which is a lie.

2nd, Rome did not “intervene” regarding things in the way that you have said. I have corrected you numerous times in many other threads. Get the facts straight and stop making things up. Adoremus added their own spin. I have PROVEN you wrong on this many times before.

And liturgical practices are not the same as “orthodoxy” regarding church teaching. Your statement is slanderous.

First of all, agapewolf, no such indult was ever given to LifeTeen to do what they have been doing. You have never even offered any authoritative documentation to substantiate your claim that Cardinal Arinze was willing to offer one.

You have not proven me wrong because, if that were indeed the case, why would these problems continue to persist at LifeTeen? While your intense zeal for the program is quite eveident, it has seeminly blinded you to some very concrete realities. Assembling around the altar and having pseudo rock played during the Mass is not allowed. Adoremus is not putting its spin on anything. It is simply calling it as it is.

While LifeTeen may have its doctrinal program in 100% fidelity to the Church, its liturgies are something else. Remember, the Neocatechumenal program is line with the Church as well; however, the movement has been called to task because of the way they are handling the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. You need to differentiate between the two.

 

[agapewolf]

First of all, agapewolf, no such indult was ever given to LifeTeen to do what they have been doing. You have never even offered any authoritative documentation to substantiate your claim that Cardinal Arinze was willing to offer one.

You have not proven me wrong because, if that were indeed the case, why would these problems continue to persist at LifeTeen? While your intense zeal for the program is quite eveident, it has seeminly blinded you to some very concrete realities. Assembling around the altar and having pseudo rock played during the Mass is not allowed. Adoremus is not putting its spin on anything. It is simply calling it as it is.

While LifeTeen may have its doctrinal program in 100% fidelity to the Church, its liturgies are something else. Remember, the Neocatechumenal program is line with the Church as well; however, the movement has been called to task because of the way they are handling the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. You need to differentiate between the two.

As I have asked you repeatedly before, stop the personal accusations of being “blind”. Your accusatory tone has inflamed so many threads to be closed because of the reactions they have caused. Do not start again here.

Adoremus has indeed “put a spin” as I HAVE PROVEN IN A PREVIOUS THREAD before. The notes LT received about the instructions said nothing about “rock party atmosphere”. THAT is adoremus spin.

Your comments were slanderous, as I still stand that LT is orthodox in teachings.

 

[Lazerlike42]

As I have asked you repeatedly before, stop the personal accusations of being “blind”. Your accusatory tone has inflamed so many threads to be closed because of the reactions they have caused. Do not start again here.

Adoremus has indeed “put a spin” as I HAVE PROVEN IN A PREVIOUS THREAD before. The notes LT received about the instructions said nothing about “rock party atmosphere”. THAT is adoremus spin.

Your comments were slanderous, as I still stand that LT is orthodox in teachings.

Agapewolf,

Perhaps a third party can cool down what seems to be a heated interaction which dates to previous experiences.

I will say that I have also heard of things like people assembling around the altar at LifeTeen Masses. There may be spin to some degree, as I am sure there is, but in regards to this and other similar specific allegations, are they or are they not accurate?