Y
YoungTradCath
Guest
It seems to me extremely unreasonable for this to be denied, most especially if you can find a priest to celebrate it. If no other impediments exist, then it seems that this is an ideological issue.
- Status
J
JReducation
Guest
When do you call the Cardinal? Never.
- Every religious in solemn vows has the right of exemption. This means that no bishop, cardinal, lay or civil authority has jurisdiction over him. Only the pope does.
- Cardinal George is an Oblate. He is not a religious in solemn vows. He is a religious in simple vows. The Jesuits are religious in solemn vows. They’re not on the same playing field. Cardinal George is not exempt, but every Jesuit is.
- The university probably belongs to a lay corporation. Most Jesuit run schools are not owned by the Jesuits. That’s not how they operate. They start the schools and eventually give them away. They remain on the staff as paid employees. They have very little say over what happens at the university. The say is in the hands of the Board of Trustees, not in the hands of the Jesuit superiors. Writing the Jesuit superiors is useless too. You need to write to the Board of Trustees.
- Summorum Pontificum says that the EF may be celebrated by any secular priest at any time. However, this does not apply to celebrations on property of consecrated religious. Even though the university may have been given to a lay board, the property is owned by consecrated religious. In that case the the Superior General of the Jesuits makes all pastoral decisions. He is not interested in dealing with small things like this, when he has men being killed in mission countries. You will probably get back a polite letter and that’s about it.
- No religious superior has the obligation to grant any priest to permission to celebrate the Extraordinary Form on his turf, even if every single person on campus wanted it. The religious community exists for its own benefit and to fulfill the mission and vision of the founder according to its statutes. If the EF is not in its statutes, it’s the superior’s right to make the call, not the individual priest. One must be very careful not to put the individual priest in compromising position with the Jesuit authorities. They can punish him and it would be your fault.
- In this case, the Director of Campus Ministry trumps the superior, because he’s employed by the university. He must comply with the university’s policies.
J
JReducation
Guest
The best advice that I can offer is a quiet and very polite group meeting with the Campus Ministry team in which you focus on presenting why the Extraordinary Form is necessary for you. You must make sure that you do not have an EF mass within a reasonable distance from the campus. If there is a diocesan EF mass then there is no need to offer one on campus.
Avoid using terms such as, “The pope wants this” or “The pope said”. This does not carry any weight when speaking to a religious who has the Right of Exemption. Unless the pope explicitly speaks to exempt religious, they are not bound by what he says or wants. There are very few regulations in the Church that apply to exempt religious. Most people don’t know this and their first mistake is to say, "The Pope said . . . . " And the religious just looks at you and goes,
. Because he knows what the pope says and he also knows that the pope was not speaking to him.
You really have to build your case based on need. Avoid making dumb remarks like “We’re going to lose our souls if we attend the OF,” or “The OF is so Protestant,” or “The EF is much more sacred.” Every good theologian, which the Jesuits are, can shoot that down with a sling shot. They can use Summorum Pontificum to do it. Because SP says the opposite. They are equally sacred expressions of the same rite.
Again, present, “This are [insert number] benefits that I get from the EF, which I do not get from the OF.” Explain the benefits. “I realize it’s not the fault of the form, it’s me. But that’s how I’m built”. A good theologian can respect this.
Hope this helps.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
Note: For everyone out there, remember, if the religious has made solemn vows, he has the Right of Exemption. You will have to deal with him on his terms not your own. You cannot threaten to withhold financial support because that’s against Church law. It’s manipulation, treating religious as if they are employees of the laity, and a violation of justice. The apostolate of the religious does not need to meet your needs to merit your support. In other words, such an attitude would be a grave sin.
Avoid using terms such as, “The pope wants this” or “The pope said”. This does not carry any weight when speaking to a religious who has the Right of Exemption. Unless the pope explicitly speaks to exempt religious, they are not bound by what he says or wants. There are very few regulations in the Church that apply to exempt religious. Most people don’t know this and their first mistake is to say, "The Pope said . . . . " And the religious just looks at you and goes,
. Because he knows what the pope says and he also knows that the pope was not speaking to him.You really have to build your case based on need. Avoid making dumb remarks like “We’re going to lose our souls if we attend the OF,” or “The OF is so Protestant,” or “The EF is much more sacred.” Every good theologian, which the Jesuits are, can shoot that down with a sling shot. They can use Summorum Pontificum to do it. Because SP says the opposite. They are equally sacred expressions of the same rite.
Again, present, “This are [insert number] benefits that I get from the EF, which I do not get from the OF.” Explain the benefits. “I realize it’s not the fault of the form, it’s me. But that’s how I’m built”. A good theologian can respect this.
Hope this helps.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
Note: For everyone out there, remember, if the religious has made solemn vows, he has the Right of Exemption. You will have to deal with him on his terms not your own. You cannot threaten to withhold financial support because that’s against Church law. It’s manipulation, treating religious as if they are employees of the laity, and a violation of justice. The apostolate of the religious does not need to meet your needs to merit your support. In other words, such an attitude would be a grave sin.
J
JReducation
Guest
Not sound advice.First and foremost please be respectful and use a respectful tone even if the others don’t. It will go a long way. If the local authorities will not work with you, then by all means go over their heads. Talk to Cardinal George and to the jesuit superior. Be persistant. If they say no, **then goover their heads **to the Vatican. good luck
- Cardinal George has nothing to do with this. He has no authority in the matter. This a school run by an order. Cardinal George is neither a member of an order nor does his diocese own the school.
- The Superior General of the Jesuits has the last word on what form of the mass his priests celebrate. This is given to him by Proper Law, which is mentioned in Summorum Pontificum. He need not be reasonable about it. SP does not require religious superior to be reasonable. It requires that they comply with Proper Law. This means their constitution. In the Jesuit constitution, there is no provision for the EF. It’s at the discretion of the Superior General. The pope approved these constitutions just two years ago.
A religious community does not have to function by what may or may not seem reasonable to the rest of us. It functions according to its vision and mission. Only the general chapter has the authority to interpret the vision and mission. Those of us who are not Jesuits have no right to say what is or is not reasonable for a Jesuit. That is decided by the superior based on what the constitutions say. Currently, the Jesuit constitutions make no provision for the EF. Pope Benedict XVI approved their revised constitutions in 2010. They deliberately left out the liturgy so that the superior can dictate according to his discretion.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
O
Ohana
Guest
I would certainly go a bit easy on Cardinal George just now. He is ill and, I think, having treatment for a recurrence of cancer. Pray for him instead.
J
JReducation
Guest
A word of advice for everyone.
When giving advice about matters that involve religious, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER suggest that a person go to the bishop or over the superior’s head.
Let me explain why it does not work.
Because people are too eager to give such advice as “go over their heads” and other people believe that because it’s a Catholic board the poster knows the ins and outs and the consequences, the person follows the advice. The person gets burned or frustrated. This has led to some people leaving the Church. They followed poor advice and they were frustrated and angry.
DO NOT set people up for frustration. Give them the proper advice. Know the constitutions of the religious community. Know the contract between the bishop and the religious. Get to know the people involved. Try communicating in different ways. Sometimes a change in presentation or a change in the presenter can make a big different. You may not make a big impression on the religious superior but someone else may. Each of us is a unique human being and we make different impressions on people.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
When giving advice about matters that involve religious, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER suggest that a person go to the bishop or over the superior’s head.
Let me explain why it does not work.
- All male religious are governed by an ordinary. The major superior of the community is an ordinary with authority equal to that of a bishop. There are boundaries that neither side crosses and there are agreements between bishops and major superiors when a community enters a diocese. The laity is not allowed to know what is included in those agreements, but I can assure you that one thing is a promise from the bishop that the laity will welcome the religious, accommodate to their spirituality and to their mission, and will support them.
- If the major superior feels that the laity is being unreasonable, he need not give the bishop or the laity any warning. He can pull his men out, close down a parish, school or other institution and mail the bishop the keys. The bishop is then in a position to find staff for that parish, close it or merge it. Not an easy task. But the laity does not win.
- Because the major superior is a canonical ordinary, he deserves the respect that comes with his office. Going over his head is not going to look good to the person above. He will probably punt the letter back down or simply ignore you. Stick to the chain of command.
- Above the major superior is the Prefect for the Sacred Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life. However, remember, the Vatican’s authority is to help the religious community write its statutes and comply with them. If it’s not in the statutes, the Vatican does not have the authority to command the religious to do it. It only has that kind of authority over lay people, not religious. You must ask for things that the Church can legally command.
- Always be conscientious of the majority. If you’re part of a smaller group, no matter how noble, and the majority feels comfortable with the religious order, you don’t want to inadvertently trigger a civil war in a parish that in the end will divide the parish. Try something that can get the support of the majority. Sometimes just explaining to the majority what something would be good can do the trick.
- Finally, if a pastor is a member of a religious community, he has two bosses: the bishop is his boss on matters pertaining to the parish and the superior is his boss on matters pertaining to his activities in the parish. For example, the bishop can say that he wants the pastor to raise his own funds to put a new roof on the Church. The superior can say, “OK, the parish has to raise the funds, but my priests will have no part of the fundraising campaign. Get lay people to do it.” This is a goofy example, but it shows the division of authority. The bishop has authority over the physical parish and the superior over the men who serve the parish. In the end, going over people’s heads is not a good idea. You may be violating Canon Law or you may be violating the contract between the bishop and the religious. Some bishops have been known to hold the laity responsible.
Because people are too eager to give such advice as “go over their heads” and other people believe that because it’s a Catholic board the poster knows the ins and outs and the consequences, the person follows the advice. The person gets burned or frustrated. This has led to some people leaving the Church. They followed poor advice and they were frustrated and angry.
DO NOT set people up for frustration. Give them the proper advice. Know the constitutions of the religious community. Know the contract between the bishop and the religious. Get to know the people involved. Try communicating in different ways. Sometimes a change in presentation or a change in the presenter can make a big different. You may not make a big impression on the religious superior but someone else may. Each of us is a unique human being and we make different impressions on people.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
E
Elizium23
Guest
Br. JR, with all due respect, the OP has made it clear that his group is asking for the Ordinary Form to be said in Latin, not the EF. This makes it a completely reasonable request, considering there is already a willing priest, nothing will change in the form of the Mass, just the language it is presented in.
This is essentially like a significant minority of Latinos requesting that they be granted a Spanish Mass. If Latin-speaking Traditionalists were an ethnic group, you would have a real case for discrimination here
This is essentially like a significant minority of Latinos requesting that they be granted a Spanish Mass. If Latin-speaking Traditionalists were an ethnic group, you would have a real case for discrimination here
J
JReducation
Guest
The rule is the same as if he were asking for the EF. These are exempt religious. They depend totally on their superior and their constitutions. If the person in authority says “No,” then it’s no and the conversation is over.Br. JR, with all due respect, the OP has made it clear that his group is asking for the Ordinary Form to be said in Latin, not the EF. This makes it a completely reasonable request, considering there is already a willing priest, nothing will change in the form of the Mass, just the language it is presented in.
This is essentially like a significant minority of Latinos requesting that they be granted a Spanish Mass. If Latin-speaking Traditionalists were an ethnic group, you would have a real case for discrimination here
The laity and the bishop have no voice over religious who have the Right of Exemption. Either the person above can say no, which is the case here, as the Campus Ministry Director is the authority or if they were asking an individual Jesuit and he said no, he has the right to say so.
In either case, the Sacred Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life does not consider it unreasonable for an authority in an exempt community to turn down a request that would be reasonable any place else.
That’s part of what exempt means. The religious in solemn vows, is not governed by rules that apply to everyone else, nor by what may make sense to everyone else, only by his founder, the person above him, the statutes of his community and the freedoms that the exemption grant him.
I can say, what harm would it do to try it? But I’m a Franciscan. I have no authority and no right to make any statement about anything related to a Jesuit. The Jesuits are exempt from my opinions, just as Franciscans as exempt from those of the Jesuit.
The key here is not the EF or OF. The key here is that the person in authority has the right to say, “No,” and there is no authority on earth that can command him to say yes, not even the Holy Father. Because the pope cannot command against what is someone’s right. He would first have to abrogate the Right of Exemption.
I concur that this could be tried to see how it works. But I also understand that rights of the Jesuit Campus Minister. If he says no, it’s game over unless you can persuade him by coming from another approach. "It’s beneficial to our souls, because . . . " or "It’s beneficial to the campus community because . . . "
“We like it” or “We prefer it” or “We’d like to try” it are all preferences and he has already said that he would not entertain preferences. That door is no longer open. You have to approach it from the angle of benefit.
To answer the question on the title, “When to call the Cardinal?”
Answer: Never, when dealing with exempt religious men.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
C
Cat
Guest
JREducation, thank you so much for spending so much of your time writing out these interesting and highly-informative responses.
I really do wish you would write a book with a title like “How Catholics Can Avoid Getting Into Fights.” If every Catholic had access to your wisdom and knowledge, I think a lot of fights, resentment, bitterness, clamor, etc. would never happen.
It’s really tragic to think that people have left the Church because of someone’s insistence on perpetuating a conflict. I hope I am never guilty of that kind of act.
I really do wish you would write a book with a title like “How Catholics Can Avoid Getting Into Fights.” If every Catholic had access to your wisdom and knowledge, I think a lot of fights, resentment, bitterness, clamor, etc. would never happen.
It’s really tragic to think that people have left the Church because of someone’s insistence on perpetuating a conflict. I hope I am never guilty of that kind of act.
C
coolduude
Guest
Thanks for those responses Br. JR. If I read correctly, and I may not have, you seem to assume that the Campus Ministry director is a Jesuit and therefore is exempt from all authority except the Pope (correct?) But the Campus Ministry director at Loyola is a lay person. Does that change the situation at all?
W
Walking_Home
Guest
JREducation, thank you so much for spending so much of your time writing out these interesting and highly-informative responses.
I really do wish you would write a book with a title like “How Catholics Can Avoid Getting Into Fights.” If every Catholic had access to your wisdom and knowledge, I think a lot of fights, resentment, bitterness, clamor, etc. would never happen.
It’s really tragic to think that people have left the Church because of someone’s insistence on perpetuating a conflict. I hope I am never guilty of that kind of act.
Ditto. I have learned much — from Br. JR.
I think the important thing – is how to handle disagreements. Get a group together – not all are going to have the same views - so disagreements/conflicts arise. How to work through a conflict/disaggreement-- without ending up/ pushing a worse state.
J
JReducation
Guest
JREducation, thank you so much for spending so much of your time writing out these interesting and highly-informative responses.
I really do wish you would write a book with a title like “How Catholics Can Avoid Getting Into Fights.” If every Catholic had access to your wisdom and knowledge, I think a lot of fights, resentment, bitterness, clamor, etc. would never happen.
It’s really tragic to think that people have left the Church because of someone’s insistence on perpetuating a conflict. I hope I am never guilty of that kind of act.
Not really. The school is administered by the Jesuits. Therefore, the Campus Minister works for the Jesuits. The school has nothing to do with the diocese. My guess is that there is a division of ownership, like most religious universities. There is a corporation that owns the institution, directed by a board on which there must be a fixed number of Jesuits and then there is the Jesuit order which owns the property, making the Jesuits the landlords. It’s like renting space to put in a dress shop. You own the shop, but not the facilities.
Usually, in those arrangements, pastoral care is contractually left up to the religious to oversee, as long as it does not interfere with the goals of the university, in which case the board can step in.
If you were the Campus Minister, your paycheck would come from the university, but your overseer would be the Jesuits, either directly or remotely. You would be expected to operate within the parameters that the Jesuits operate or lose your job.
Thank you all for your kind words.
There is one thing that I have to add here for everyone’s benefit. Always remember that when a door closes, that does not mean that every door is closed. If I’m reading the OP correctly (please correct me if I’m not), the main issue that the Campus Minister is citing is that this is a preference and not a need. He or she is unwilling to entertain a preference.
OK, fine. That’s his right and as long as the Jesuits uphold that line of thinking, even the pope cannot change this. Popes cannot violate people’s rights. However, he left the door wide open for a dialogue about need.
Here’s the way that a philosopher or a theologian would approach this situation. You listen very carefully TO WHAT IS NOT SAID.
Whatever was not addressed in the response, remains open for discussion. I’m not hearing this person say that there is no need. It sounds like the people who approached the Campus Minister presented it as an option that they would like to take advantage of. That’s a preference, not a need, hence his response.
This is why the example of the mass in Spanish does not work. That’s not a preference, that’s a pastoral need and it’s demanded by the Holy See of every diocese in the USA, since the Catholic Church in the USA if officially bilingual. We actually have two missals for the USA, English and Spanish. Contrary to popular belief, we do not borrow from Mexico, South America or Spain. Our Spanish missal and lectionary is printed in American Spanish and regulated by the liturgical commission at the USCCB.
A mass in Latin, EF or OF can be a pastoral need, but must be proven. A mass is Spanish is already a given right established by the Church and reiterated by Bl. John Paul and Pope Benedict many times.
The key here is to demonstrate a pastoral need.
Do you see what I mean by listening to what is not said? Preference was ruled out, but pastoral need was not. At the end of the day, pastoral needs always trumps every law. Ecclesial law is based on pastoral need. What these laws do is look at the need, then look at theology to ensure that the response to the need is not in conflict with the faith.
In such a case, one would have to make a case that such a response is beneficial to the faith.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
O
OraLabora
Guest
Well I am exposed to the OF in Latin and have attended Latin OFs on a number of occasions where it was offered by the communities involved (all Benedictine).
In a college setting, I agree with Br. JR’s line of reasoning.
I would approach it from a different angle, that of music. If there’s a competent choir or schola on the campus, having a Latin OF would be a wonderful way of exposing the community to the rich patrimony of Gregorian chant in the form of the current Graduale Romanum. It might not be so much a Jesuit thing though, but one assumes a Jesuit institution would be interested in teaching all aspects of the faith at some point, and this might be a teaching moment for Gregorian chant, to expose the community to it and teach the community about its role in liturgy, its traditions, etc.
I belong to a schola with such a ministry in our diocese (we chanted yesterday in fact). Last summer the Gregorian Institute of Canada used the main Jesuit church in Montreal to hold our annual colloquium and the Jesuits agreed to allow us to celebrate their Sunday Mass entirely in Latin in Gregorian chant, in the ordinary form. We invited a priest with the skills for it as well.
Seen in pedagogic terms, perhaps you could sway the college to have a Latin OF at least as a one-off, and perhaps if that’s a success you can explain the pedagogic advantages to having a Latin OF at least once per season (Advent, Christmas, Lent, Eastertide and OT) to expose the community to the repertory for those seasons.
To me that would be a positive approach worth a shot. A college could not deny its obligation as a teaching institution, and this would be a way to convert a wish into a pedagogic need. Moreover it’s a positive approach. As Br. JR says “demanding” something that the community is under no obligation to provide is a fail from the get-go. We learned in our chant ministry in the diocese to politely ask parishes for permission to provide chant for one of their Masses, and if we get a refusal, to reply with a polite “thank you for your consideration” and then we try another parish (we rotate to a different parish each month).
Additional thought: create an extra-curricular “interest group” on campus, with Gregorian chant as focus. This would create a nucleus of interested people, would show serious intent, and would create a pedagogical need for at least an occasional OF Mass that includes chant. I think your case in front of the rector would be on much more solid grounds doing that, than waving Sacrosanctum Concilium under his nose.
In a college setting, I agree with Br. JR’s line of reasoning.
I would approach it from a different angle, that of music. If there’s a competent choir or schola on the campus, having a Latin OF would be a wonderful way of exposing the community to the rich patrimony of Gregorian chant in the form of the current Graduale Romanum. It might not be so much a Jesuit thing though, but one assumes a Jesuit institution would be interested in teaching all aspects of the faith at some point, and this might be a teaching moment for Gregorian chant, to expose the community to it and teach the community about its role in liturgy, its traditions, etc.
I belong to a schola with such a ministry in our diocese (we chanted yesterday in fact). Last summer the Gregorian Institute of Canada used the main Jesuit church in Montreal to hold our annual colloquium and the Jesuits agreed to allow us to celebrate their Sunday Mass entirely in Latin in Gregorian chant, in the ordinary form. We invited a priest with the skills for it as well.
Seen in pedagogic terms, perhaps you could sway the college to have a Latin OF at least as a one-off, and perhaps if that’s a success you can explain the pedagogic advantages to having a Latin OF at least once per season (Advent, Christmas, Lent, Eastertide and OT) to expose the community to the repertory for those seasons.
To me that would be a positive approach worth a shot. A college could not deny its obligation as a teaching institution, and this would be a way to convert a wish into a pedagogic need. Moreover it’s a positive approach. As Br. JR says “demanding” something that the community is under no obligation to provide is a fail from the get-go. We learned in our chant ministry in the diocese to politely ask parishes for permission to provide chant for one of their Masses, and if we get a refusal, to reply with a polite “thank you for your consideration” and then we try another parish (we rotate to a different parish each month).
Additional thought: create an extra-curricular “interest group” on campus, with Gregorian chant as focus. This would create a nucleus of interested people, would show serious intent, and would create a pedagogical need for at least an occasional OF Mass that includes chant. I think your case in front of the rector would be on much more solid grounds doing that, than waving Sacrosanctum Concilium under his nose.
M
malphono
Guest
I’m curious to know if this priest is of the SJ?
Either way, fighting with the so-called “campus ministry” and all sounds like far too much hassle. Your best bet would probably be to find a venue away from the control of the school and all that it entails. Maybe a neighboring parish?
R
ringil
Guest
I agree.
I think the campus ministry and the priest’s response is unfortunate as, if it is as you say, you have the resources ready to go. It’s not like adding a Mass is going to hurt anyone.
In any case. You have to work within the system so good luck and God Bless.
Oh, you are talking an OF in Latin. I take all of my post back except for the “God Bless”.
You have an OF, there is no special need for it to be in Latin. Now, if you were talking EF, that would be a different matter.
J
JReducation
Guest
Even if the priest is not a Jesuit, any priest who sets foot on territory of an exempt religious order, needs faculties from the superior to exercise the ministry, even to celebrate mass. It’s not a difficult permission to get. You just have to show that you’re in good standing with the Church. However, you cannot go in asking to do something that the superior does not allow.
If you folks watch EWTN, every priest who celebrates mass at that chapel uses the Roman-Franciscan Missal, even if they are not Franciscans and they must follow the Franciscan liturgical calendar, not the Roman liturgical calendar. The superior of that house will not allow anything but the Franciscan missal and calendar. It’s either that or you can’t say mass there.
Canon Law says that every priest in good standing with the Church must be allowed to celebrate mass anywhere, but it’s not on his terms, if the house belongs to a religious community that has the right of exemption. If it’s a diocesan parish, then the mass is on his terms, because diocesan priests are secular men. Secular Catholics do not have the right to dictate to a priest how to celebrate mass, even if it’s another priest doing the dictating.
I don’t think that it’s as much as a battle as it may be the way that it was presented. It sounds as if it was presented as an option that they would like to use. “Would like” does not constitute a pastoral need.
The key is not to go against a religious institution and start the conversation with, “I have a right to . . . [insert foot in mouth].”
In an institution run by a religious order the superior oversees everyone’s rights. He protects everyone’s rights according to Church law, the proper law of his religious order, whatever contracts have been made between the order and the secular community and whatever civil laws apply. Before one speaks about rights, be sure to read the fine print. In some obscure document in tiny tiny print it will say that in a Jesuit institution, the rules are thus and thus, regardless of what they are for the rest of the Church.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
J
JuantheTuba
Guest
I would sure hope altar cloths and candles were used at Mass even if it isn’t in Latin.
C
choliks
Guest
I would sure hope altar cloths and candles were used at Mass even if it isn’t in Latin.
C
coolduude
Guest
Someone asked if the priest willing to say the Mass is a Jesuit. Yes, he is. He also currently says the TLM in the Jesuit Residence’s chapel on occasion.
JReducation:
Thanks again for your help Brother.
I’m not quite sure I follow, but that’s probably because I don’t quite understand what pastoral need is and how I would go about demonstrating it. Can you (or anyone knowledgeable in this area) explain this more?
Thanks again for your help Brother.
C
choliks
Guest
If I understand correctly, Br. JR was suggesting you prove to the campus minister that the OF in latin is needed in the care of souls, not only a preference.
- Status