When to forgive and when not to forgive?

[eldestofvic]

As to your earlier comment. Genius? No not really. I’m pretty good on those Mensa tests though. Thanks anyway.

As to the rest, titles not withstanding, paarsurrey brought to this thread an earlier post (from another thread but so what?) that clearly postulated that Islam did not have a teaching of forgiveness. This paarsurrey addressed and did so with a teaching on the manner of forgiveness within Islam. However, how Islam teaches one about forgiveness (very OT it seems to me) is irrellevant. And the differences between our ways and theirs even less so. That they forgive is what paarsurrey established and that has been largely ignored here.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

As to your earlier comment. Genius? No not really. I’m pretty good on those Mensa tests though. Thanks anyway.

As to the rest, titles not withstanding, paarsurrey brought to this thread an earlier post (from another thread but so what?) that clearly postulated that Islam did not have a teaching of forgiveness. This paarsurrey addressed and did so with a teaching on the manner of forgiveness within Islam. However, how Islam teaches one about forgiveness (very OT it seems to me) is irrellevant. And the differences between our ways and theirs even less so. That they forgive is what paarsurrey established and that has been largely ignored here.

“So what” is I never read that thread and I had nothing to do with it.

It is not irrelevant if it appears to be the topic of the thread. To me, a person who did not participate in that other thread, it appeared this WAS the topic of this thread. In fact, that looks like the title, “when to forgive and when not to forgive”.

Why don’t you just admit you attacked me unfairly?

Hey, I forgive you.

 

[eldestofvic]

I didn’t read whatever other thread you are so upset about, and I am not going to be a scapegoat for whatever you are so angry about.

Please forgive me for having no idea what you are talking about. I don’t know of any other thread that I’ve participated in or even read that is pertinent to our discussions at this time.

YOUR post then was about how there is no difference between Islam and Christianity when it comes to forgiveness, which I disputed.

I have never said that their is no difference between Islam and Christianity when it comes to forgiveness.

But hey, that’s fine. Just twist my words so you can punish someone for whatever it is you’re mad about.

Who’s twisting words here? I have always specifically noted exactly what it is you have said. I have also quite legitimately pointed out that it is clearly irrelevant to what paarsurrey was addressing. And I have not particularly targeted you other than you are the one who has responded. Reread my posts I have generally always responded referencing all of the other posts in this thread as a whole.

Your the one saying I’ve said things I did not say.

 

[eldestofvic]

Forgive me? Wouldn’t I have had to do something wrong first?

 

[Angels_Unaware]

I am now completely lost as to what your hostility toward me is for.

As far as I can tell, your hostility toward me is because I “didn’t address what paarsurrey was talking about”?

Is that right? This is your quote.

I have actually actually actually read every single post on this thread. It is blessedly short and, in fact, no you did not address the concern that paarsurrey raised. **paarsurrey raised a contention with a singular lie about Islam, as I quoted above… “they do not forgive”. **You, like every other poster in this thread chose to completely overlook the response, with support of their Quran, that what had been originally posted about Islam was a lie and move straight to attacking it from a different perspective

If that is what your hostility is about, then my response to that is I did not interpret the topic of this thread to be “the singular lie about Islam that they do not forgive”.

I read paarsurrey’s quote from the Koran, and I responded by saying I think that kind of forgiveness is different than the Christian concept of forgiveness. I acknowledged that he did quote verses on forgiveness, but said it was a “different kind”.

So- your hostility is because I did not address the fact that other people lie and distort what Muslims teach? I just want to be clear about exactly what your hostility is about because I am very confused. I thought I understood exactly what I was reading, but the issues keep changing.

If that is the answer, then I would just refer to what I said before. I responded to the topic of forgiveness, which I thought was the topic of this thread, and I felt that was entirely appropriate.

 

[dzheremi]

Angels Unaware and Eldestofvic, would you two mind restricting your personal argument to PMs, or in the spirit of Our Lord and the thread, forgiving each other? The last few posts have had very little to do with the thread topic, and I don’t want this thread to get closed due to digression.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Angels Unaware and Eldestofvic, would you two mind restricting your personal argument to PMs, or in the spirit of Our Lord and the thread, forgiving each other? The last few posts have had very little to do with the thread topic, and I don’t want this thread to get closed due to digression.

Certainly. He is forgiven.

That still leaves the question of what the topic of this thread actually is, though. Perhaps paarsurrey can respond to your posted article.

 

[swariffin]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4528937&postcount=34
Why do Muslims believe St Paul was a liar?

Hi

I think you have not studied Quran in the least. Never mind you may start it now.

[42:35] Or He can destroy those who are in them because of that which they have earned - but He forgives many of their sins -
[42:36] And He destroys them so that those who dispute concerning Our Signs may know that they have no refuge.
[42:37] And whatever you have been given is only a temporary provision of this life, but that which is with Allah is better and more lasting for those who believe and put their trust in their Lord,
[42:38] And those who eschew the more grievous sins and indecencies, and, when they are wroth, they forgive,
[42:39] And those, who hearken to their Lord, and observe Prayer, and whose affairs are decided by mutual consultation, and who spend out of what We have provided for them,
[42:40] And those who, when a wrong is done to them, defend themselves.

[42:41] Remember that the recompense of an injury is an injury the like thereof; but whoso forgives and thereby brings about an improvement, his reward is with Allah. Surely, He loves not the wrongdoers.

[42:42] There is no blame on those who defend themselves after they have been wronged.
[42:43] The blame is only on those who wrong men and transgress in the earth without justification. Such will have a grievous punishment.
[42:44] And he who is patient and forgives - that, surely, is a matter of high resolve.

alislam.org/quran/search2…=42& verse=34

I think now the concept of when to forgive and when not to forgive is clear to you. It is very rational; if forgiveness could reform the wrongdoer, then he may be forgiven, but if the wrongdoer gets more encouraged then he is not to be forgiven.

Islam does not make one a coward; but wants that one should be graceful.

Thanks

Dear Brother,

No wonder there are Muslim Terrorists. Muhammad gave the power to every muslim to be the judge of others.

 

[Dameedna]

I think now the concept of when to forgive and when not to forgive is clear to you. It is very rational; if forgiveness could reform the wrongdoer, then he may be forgiven, but if the wrongdoer gets more encouraged then he is not to be forgiven.

Islam does not make one a coward; but wants that one should be graceful.

Thanks

This is interesting. You are coming from a different place but with the same concept.

I think this is very similar actually to christianity, just worded differently.

You seem to be saying, A person cannot be forgiven if they are not sorry. So to offer forgivness to one, who is not sorry…is to in a sense give them permission to continue down that path, the path of wrongdoing, so in THIS case, offering forgivness would be the wrong thing to do. You do not help them to get closer to God and to what is right. You simply encourage bad behaviour. I think every parent can relate to this and I agree.

The way christianity has it articulated, is imo, more to the essence of the meaning behind forgivness because it’s message is about YOU the sinner, and not how you “forgive” another, as that is Gods job.

When you are sorry, you can accept that you are forgiven as this is what God/Christ has given you, and If you are sorry and IF you can accept the forgivness, it creates a change and a growth within you. You head down the right path.

If you are not sorry, you cannot accept forgiveness(even if it’s offered) in a sense, because forgiveness, in and of itself, requires a recognition for wrong doing. You can claim to accept forgivness, but it will never really happen, nor change you until you realize…you messed up. Then…it’s there in abundance.

So it is pretty much the same thing. Both religions recognize, that forgivness is not a tool, to be used to encourage bad behaviour. It is something that happens, when good behaviour is encouraged, and sinful behaviour is recognized.

my 2c’s.

 

[Dameedna]

Dear Brother,

No wonder there are Muslim Terrorists. Muhammad gave the power to every muslim to be the judge of others.

Sigh…

You have a religion, and a denomination which you believe to be correct, and in your mind, gives you the right to determine what is “good” and “not good” in anothers behaviour. Your church and your scripture has decided what is a sin, what is a mortal sin.

So…no wonder there are christian terrorists. The church, allows every human who follows it, to decide what is right or wrong for humanity and will enforce it on governments, institutions and people when they feel it is necessary to the greater good of God.

Your church, and your religion has made a choice about what it thinks God wants. You are no different than any other group of religious people, or followers of a religious leader.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi Paarsurrey:

Here is an article from “American Thinker” internet journal that deals with some of the harsh punishments found in Islam, including references from the Quran. Please read it and comment on it, if you’d like.

Hi

I have gone thrugh the article in “American Thinker” internet journal that deals with some of the harsh punishments.

First for :

Flogging adulterers and adulteresses one hundred times

[24:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[24:2] This is a Surah which We have revealed and the ordinances of which We have made obligatory; and We have revealed therein clear commandments that you may take heed.

[24:3] The adulteress and the adulterer - flog each one of them with a hundred stripes. And let not pity for the twain take hold of you in executing the judgement of Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment.

[24:4] The adulterer cannot have sexual intercourse but with an adulteress or an idolatrous woman, and an adulteress - none can have sexual intercourse with her but an adulterer or an idolatrous man. That indeed is forbidden to the believers.
[24:5] And those who culminate chaste woman but bring not four witnesses - flog them with eighty stripes, and do not admit their evidence ever after, for it is they that are the transgression,
[24:6] Except those who repent thereafter and make amends, for truly Allah is Most forgiving, Merciful.
[24:7] And as for those who charge their wives with adultery and have no witnesses except themselves - the evidence of anyone of such people shall suffice if he bears witness four times in the name of Allah solemnly affirming that he is of those who speak the truth;
[24:8] And the fifth time that Allah’s curse be upon him if he be of the liars.
[24:9] But it shall avert the punishment from her if she bears witness four times in the name of Allah that he is of the liars;
[24:10] And the fifth time that the wrath of Allah be upon her if he has spoken the truth.
[24:11] And were it not for Allah’s grace and His mercy upon you, and that Allah is compassionate and Wise, you would have come to grief.

alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=24&verse=0

Is it for Jews, Christians and others?

Jesus was a Jew; what Book did he and Mary beleived in and acted upon?

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna

Thanks

 

[Angels_Unaware]

This is interesting. You are coming from a different place but with the same concept.

I think this is very similar actually to christianity, just worded differently.

You seem to be saying, A person cannot be forgiven if they are not sorry. So to offer forgivness to one, who is not sorry…is to in a sense give them permission to continue down that path, the path of wrongdoing, so in THIS case, offering forgivness would be the wrong thing to do. You do not help them to get closer to God and to what is right. You simply encourage bad behaviour. I think every parent can relate to this and I agree.

It makes no difference what you agree with as a human being, this is not what Christianity teaches about forgiveness. That is not a derogatory statement about Islam, it is just putting forth the truth of what is taught. Forgiveness is required of us toward others regardless of anyone’s repentance by Christianity. Temporal punishment of sin is not necessarily withheld, but forgiveness, the restoration of a relationship, is always required.

From the Bible:
You can turn to Matthew 18:21-22, Matthew 6: 14-16, Mark 11:25, and Colossians 3:13 to see the difference.

From the Catechism: 2844 Christian prayer extends to the forgiveness of enemies, transfiguring the disciple by configuring him to his Master. Forgiveness is a high-point of Christian prayer; only hearts attuned to God’s compassion can receive the gift of prayer. Forgiveness also bears witness that, in our world, love is stronger than sin. The martyrs of yesterday and today bear this witness to Jesus. Forgiveness is the fundamental condition of the reconciliation of the children of God with their Father and of men with one another.

And from the testimony of St. Faustina, Jesus has said that he will not extend mercy to those who do not extend mercy to others.

The way christianity has it articulated, is imo, more to the essence of the meaning behind forgivness because it’s message is about YOU the sinner, and not how you “forgive” another, as that is Gods job.

When you are sorry, you can accept that you are forgiven as this is what God/Christ has given you, and If you are sorry and IF you can accept the forgivness, it creates a change and a growth within you. You head down the right path.

If you are not sorry, you cannot accept forgiveness(even if it’s offered) in a sense, because forgiveness, in and of itself, requires a recognition for wrong doing. You can claim to accept forgivness, but it will never really happen, nor change you until you realize…you messed up. Then…it’s there in abundance.

So it is pretty much the same thing. Both religions recognize, that forgivness is not a tool, to be used to encourage bad behaviour. It is something that happens, when good behaviour is encouraged, and sinful behaviour is recognized.

my 2c’s.

This is nothing but your philosophy about the relationship between God and a person who seeks forgiveness. It is not Christian doctrine about how we are instructed to forgive others.

If you are going to make statements like this, then back it up with Scripture, the Catechism, or other Church teaching.

 

[paarsurrey]

When you are sorry, you can accept that you are forgiven as this is what God/Christ has given you, and If you are sorry and IF you can accept the forgivness, it creates a change and a growth within you. You head down the right path.

If you are not sorry, you cannot accept forgiveness(even if it’s offered) in a sense, because forgiveness, in and of itself, requires a recognition for wrong doing. You can claim to accept forgivness, but it will never really happen, nor change you until you realize…you messed up. Then…it’s there in abundance.

So it is pretty much the same thing. Both religions recognize, that forgivness is not a tool, to be used to encourage bad behaviour. It is something that happens, when good behaviour is encouraged, and sinful behaviour is recognized.
my 2c’s.

Hi

~it creates a change and a growth within you. You head down the right path.
~You can claim to accept forgivness, but it will never really happen, nor change you until you realize…you messed up.
~It is something that happens, when good behaviour is encouraged, and sinful behaviour is recognized

You are a good Catholic; I appreciate your post.

Thanks

 

[swariffin]

Sigh…

You have a religion, and a denomination which you believe to be correct, and in your mind, gives you the right to determine what is “good” and “not good” in anothers behaviour. Your church and your scripture has decided what is a sin, what is a mortal sin.

So…no wonder there are christian terrorists. The church, allows every human who follows it, to decide what is right or wrong for humanity and will enforce it on governments, institutions and people when they feel it is necessary to the greater good of God.

Your church, and your religion has made a choice about what it thinks God wants. You are no different than any other group of religious people, or followers of a religious leader.

In my denomination as mentioned in the bible, no one can automatically be the judge of other, and no one canautomatically be the executioner of other. In that case, there can’t be any Christian to act on behalf of God.

The Muslim believe that Muhammad gave the power to a muslim to judge other. That is completely different belief.

Sorry, I don’t know if your church permit each of the follower to determine who is guilty of sin or not. So much that you believe that your church has the same teaching as what Paarsurrey believe.

 

[swariffin]

This is interesting. You are coming from a different place but with the same concept.

I think this is very similar actually to christianity, just worded differently.

You seem to be saying, A person cannot be forgiven if they are not sorry. So to offer forgivness to one, who is not sorry…is to in a sense give them permission to continue down that path, the path of wrongdoing, so in THIS case, offering forgivness would be the wrong thing to do. You do not help them to get closer to God and to what is right. You simply encourage bad behaviour. I think every parent can relate to this and I agree.

The way christianity has it articulated, is imo, more to the essence of the meaning behind forgivness because it’s message is about YOU the sinner, and not how you “forgive” another, as that is Gods job.

When you are sorry, you can accept that you are forgiven as this is what God/Christ has given you, and If you are sorry and IF you can accept the forgivness, it creates a change and a growth within you. You head down the right path.

If you are not sorry, you cannot accept forgiveness(even if it’s offered) in a sense, because forgiveness, in and of itself, requires a recognition for wrong doing. You can claim to accept forgivness, but it will never really happen, nor change you until you realize…you messed up. Then…it’s there in abundance.

So it is pretty much the same thing. Both religions recognize, that forgivness is not a tool, to be used to encourage bad behaviour. It is something that happens, when good behaviour is encouraged, and sinful behaviour is recognized.

my 2c’s.

So, when Jesus ask God to forgive the Roman who crucify Him, do you think the Roman already agree not to do the wrong things they did?

 

[swariffin]

Jesus was a Jew; what Book did he and Mary beleived in and acted upon?

Jesus and Mary believe in the True Torah, not the Talmud which was Torah, BUT added by many others created rules by the Pharisee during Their time. More importantly, Jesus believe in God who has sent Him, that one who believe Jesus, believe God. One who hears Jesus, hears God. One who sees Jesus, sees God. And also, Jesus and the Father are One.