When to Stop Apologizing

[nickybr38]

From an Apologetics standpoint. If you’re discussing the faith with someone and they continually get upset over things that really one shouldn’t be getting upset over (calm conversations, hard but true points, respectful manners)… do you continue the conersations or do you back down?

I have been discussing the faith with a lady who continually becomes offended when I point out certain historical facts and/or certain points. I try very hard to be super respectful and patient but she continually finds offense in things that aren’t said in an offensive manner. She has even become very upset to the point of tears while debating some issues.

She is the one who initiates these conversations but I almost feel like I should stop taking them up and should refuse to pick up what she puts down.

What would you do?

I don’t want to give up on her but on the same hand I’m not convinced I’m doing any good.

There have been points where I’ve been able to disprove her theories only to have her change the subject by snapping: WELL THE CHURCH BURNED HERETICS.

Instead of taking offense I just explained what a heretic is and encouraged her to study her history a bit more but I kind of feel like she doesn’t know as much as she thinks and it frustrates her to be challenged. And yet she keeps starting these conversations!!! It’s confusing.

 

[bmonk]

If she is initiating the discussion, she is interested in the answers on some level. The problem seems to be the frustration, or perhaps the inability to accept historical facts. Perhaps you need to consider with her why she keeps asking when the answers are so frustrating for you both.

If you decide to continue, it may help to look at the distinction between the Church as instituted by Jesus to preserve the truth of revelation and to spread the Gospel, and the members of the Church who, by Jesus own choice, are sinners. While the Church can err and go astray, by Jesus’ own promise of the Holy Spirit we will not go astray far, or for long.

Yes, in former ages, heretics were burned. Was this the best response? Looking back, we would have to say not–which is why the biggest punishment the Church now can impose is excommunication: if you do not want to be part of us, or cannot accept what we believe is required to be one of us, we let you go your own way.

 

[James224]

From an Apologetics standpoint. If you’re discussing the faith with someone and they continually get upset over things that really one shouldn’t be getting upset over (calm conversations, hard but true points, respectful manners)… do you continue the conersations or do you back down?

I have been discussing the faith with a lady who continually becomes offended when I point out certain historical facts and/or certain points. I try very hard to be super respectful and patient but she continually finds offense in things that aren’t said in an offensive manner. She has even become very upset to the point of tears while debating some issues.

She is the one who initiates these conversations but I almost feel like I should stop taking them up and should refuse to pick up what she puts down.

What would you do?

I don’t want to give up on her but on the same hand I’m not convinced I’m doing any good.

There have been points where I’ve been able to disprove her theories only to have her change the subject by snapping: WELL THE CHURCH BURNED HERETICS.

Instead of taking offense I just explained what a heretic is and encouraged her to study her history a bit more but I kind of feel like she doesn’t know as much as she thinks and it frustrates her to be challenged. And yet she keeps starting these conversations!!! It’s confusing.

As long as she continues to bring up the discussions, I would continue to answer her. May be you could ask her to meet you in a more comfortable setting and get her to settle down. Let her know that just because you disagree doesn’t mean she has to convert or get upset. I’ve had that happen to me a couple of times and when I asked them to come to my house, they refused. Eventually they dropped the conversations. I would just be available.

 

[Heuchler]

Your friend seems to have a problem with sinners inside of the Catholic Church and some wrong choices made by these people. An easy way to remind her that the Church has been filled with sinners and people led astray would be to point out that Christ’s own apostle, Judas, a man he picked himself, betrayed him. There will always be people who will give a bad name to the Church.

In this situation, I would do what the above poster suggested and invite her to a private place to discuss these matters or try to discover why she is insistent on discussing this with you. It doesn’t seem she is trying to discover the truth, she seems to be trying to convince you that she is right. If she is doing this out of pride or trying to convert you, you might want to stop these discussions as they probably will go nowhere.

 

[The_Old_Medic]

I would refer her to someone else for these discussions. it may be your manner of speaking, or the way you explain things, but you are NOT reaching this woman, who is so very obviously reaching out.

Find someone else, and introduce them to her. Tell this lady that you are not properly qualified or trained to deal with her questions, but the person you introduced is.

Not all of us can be THE resource for everyone.

 

[Catholic1954]

Keep up the good work! Because she is seeking you out and asking questions shows that you are reaching her, but it is very difficult for her to accept some of the things you have to say. I’m sure she has heard and believed some real anti-Catholic whoppers in her day and is now finding out it has all been a lie; it’s probably very hard to take. Just continue answering her questions and try not to give her more information than she can take at one time.

 

[Mintaka]

Actually… the Church as the Church never burned heretics. Burning was a death penalty reserved to civil authorities, just like hanging, chopping off your head, and all the rest. Generally burning was associated with high, middle, or low treason, or with heresy as a treasonous civil offense. It was rated as not as bad as being hung, drawn, and quartered; but worse than hanging and head-chopping. (These were generally reserved for theft, normal murder, and that sort of thing, though certain great lords got the chop for treason instead of the full drawing and quartering as a favor. Usually when somebody was feeling guilty.) Women convicted of the low treason of killing their husband or boss were often burned instead of being hung, drawn, and quartered (not for mercy, but to avoid lewd comments by the crowd about dead naked women).

Now… there were places where church officials (like bishops or abbots) also held civil authority over certain areas, and then they might burn people in their capacity as civic authorities and lords; but that wasn’t common, because cleric-run courts were notoriously soft on crime. Some lucky people got tried for heresy by the Church courts instead of civil authority, which gave them a much better chance of not being convicted; but anybody convicted would be taken back by the civil courts to render civic punishment.

It’s not a great argument for people, especially since they probably won’t believe you; but just so you know.

 

[nickybr38]

I would refer her to someone else for these discussions. it may be your manner of speaking, or the way you explain things, but you are NOT reaching this woman, who is so very obviously reaching out.

Find someone else, and introduce them to her. Tell this lady that you are not properly qualified or trained to deal with her questions, but the person you introduced is.

Not all of us can be THE resource for everyone.

How can one tell when they really aren’t reaching someone? I mean, she keeps initiating these conversations, not me.

That’s absolutely not a viable option. This lady is a very good friend. I could get away with telling her I would rather not discuss these things, I cannot get away with ‘referring her’ to someone else to answer her. She’s not asking pointed questions, persay, she’s bringing up faith matters constantly. She shares what she believes, I share what I believe and then the fireworks start.

Sorry, I suppose I should have been more direct in my OP. It’s not as if she’s coming to me and asking: What do Catholics believe about…? No. She’s saying: In Revelation it says we’re in the end times! And I’ll say: Actually, it’s my understanding that Revelation is about something else.

Or she’ll say: All we need is the Bible.
and I’ll say: The Bible introduces us to God but the Church and Sacred Tradition teach us how to be holier (or something along those lines).

Of course these aren’t exact copies of our conversations but just the general gist of how things go. She brings up a faith issue, I respond with what I’ve been taught, she argues why I’m wrong and then won’t drop the issue even after she’s all riled up.

Sometimes I’ll post my notes on Facebook (I write some notes about the Catholic faith on Facebook every now and then, just to share new things I’ve discovered that I think are awesome and that make me appreciate my faith) and she’ll approach me in person to discuss whatever it was I wrote. Usually to tell me why what I discovered is completely wrong but yeah… That’s more the situation here.

Ah, it’s just kind of complicated because she IS a friend and we have a long history.

 

[COPLAND_3]

It truly is difficult to determine what is the fruitful or unfruitful time to engage in serious discussions. Sometimes the person who starts the discussion is not the one who benefits from your answers, but sometimes those who are around who listen to what is being said are those who get the most out of it because usually those defending their side are usually not open enough to actually take in consideration what the other person is saying because their too busy defending. But make sure you are the one who stays calm, and not the one who is hostile or overly emotional, because that really effects perceptions of others.

But keep in mind that if your heart is in the right place, it really does not matter if you change the other persons mind as long as you are placing truth at the center of everything. It may be God’s way of stimulating your own mind in a direction that you may not have gone had it not been for that person. It is amazing what a question or challenge someone brings to you that can lead you down a road of your own further investigation of it. Many times I have had similar discussions with people who I probably did not change their opinion, but something that we discussed between us spurred me to become even more familar with the topic.

 

[nickybr38]

It truly is difficult to determine what is the fruitful or unfruitful time to engage in serious discussions. Sometimes the person who starts the discussion is not the one who benefits from your answers, but sometimes those who are around who listen to what is being said are those who get the most out of it because usually those defending their side are usually not open enough to actually take in consideration what the other person is saying because their too busy defending. But make sure you are the one who stays calm, and not the one who is hostile or overly emotional, because that really effects perceptions of others.

But keep in mind that if your heart is in the right place, it really does not matter if you change the other persons mind as long as you are placing truth at the center of everything. It may be God’s way of stimulating your own mind in a direction that you may not have gone had it not been for that person. It is amazing what a question or challenge someone brings to you that can lead you down a road of your own further investigation of it. Many times I have had similar discussions with people who I probably did not change their opinion, but something that we discussed between us spurred me to become even more familar with the topic.

Good points. She does get into some sticky topics. I do remain calm. I just feel bad because she gets so upset… I just don’t understand why she won’t drop the topics if it’s upsetting her but clearly there’s something going on there.

 

[COPLAND_3]

Good points. She does get into some sticky topics. I do remain calm. I just feel bad because she gets so upset… I just don’t understand why she won’t drop the topics if it’s upsetting her but clearly there’s something going on there.

I feel for you, that would be awkward. Perhaps she thinks that she is suppose to convert you, and is getting upset because its not going her way.

 

[BraveNewFamily]

From an Apologetics standpoint. If you’re discussing the faith with someone and they continually get upset over things that really one shouldn’t be getting upset over (calm conversations, hard but true points, respectful manners)… do you continue the conersations or do you back down?

I have been discussing the faith with a lady who continually becomes offended when I point out certain historical facts and/or certain points. I try very hard to be super respectful and patient but she continually finds offense in things that aren’t said in an offensive manner. She has even become very upset to the point of tears while debating some issues.

She is the one who initiates these conversations but I almost feel like I should stop taking them up and should refuse to pick up what she puts down.

What would you do?

I don’t want to give up on her but on the same hand I’m not convinced I’m doing any good.

There have been points where I’ve been able to disprove her theories only to have her change the subject by snapping: WELL THE CHURCH BURNED HERETICS.

Instead of taking offense I just explained what a heretic is and encouraged her to study her history a bit more but I kind of feel like she doesn’t know as much as she thinks and it frustrates her to be challenged. And yet she keeps starting these conversations!!! It’s confusing.

I am assuming she was raised an atheist. Give her time. She is spewing out all the **** that was drilled into her for her entire life (the product of open mindedness ).
She is being exposed to the truth of Christ, and it might be overwhelming her. Keep praying for her, and don’t stop.

 

[COPLAND_3]

Good points. She does get into some sticky topics. I do remain calm. I just feel bad because she gets so upset… I just don’t understand why she won’t drop the topics if it’s upsetting her but clearly there’s something going on there.

I feel for you, that would be awkward. Perhaps she thinks that she is suppose to convert you, and is getting upset because its not going her way.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

When she snaps THE CHURCH BURNED HERETICS, you can tell her THE CHURCH NEVER BURNED HERETICS. It was the government.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

I understand about the part where she thinks she knows more than she does. Protestants are not very knowledgable about history in general. If they were, the Roman Catholic Church would be doing quite well. BTW keep trying.

 

[Sherry_G]

God is showing you something, here. You have evidently learned your faith well and are honing your evangelization skills. Perhaps you won’t be able to get thru to your friend, but you are learning a great deal thought these discussions, too. You are doing a great job and don’t worry, your friend will settle down in time. Hearing things that make one question long-held beliefs can be very upsetting. The good news is that everything you are telling her is …good news.

 

[Crumpy]

If the lady is still talking to you, listen to her and answer when you have a chance. If she is clearly wrong, and you can offer an alternative, then you might use that opportunity to GENTLY plant an idea in her head.

It is God who does the converting of hearts. Let God do His job.

I have a “funny family” when it comes to church affiliation: they are all over the map. I once asked a question about this and got back a very mind-your-own-business type answer and things have not been the same since. We can suffer for the faith, too, it still happens even today. Christ said to count that as a blessing.

It’s funnier further, because my evangelical relatives NEVER have tried to convert me. figure that out! why would they be SO selfish, if they felt that they were “saved” not to try to “save” me, too? I am actually offended by their selfishness. On the other hand, I’M the one more likely to bring up the subject of religion and even the Bible.

When I listen to Marcus Grodi’s program on EWTN, The Journey Home, I don’t recall hearing people say that their relatives drew them into the Church or such. It’s even somewhat better, in a sense, that they come to the Church for logical reasons, on their own. Those are the more spectacular conversion stories.

After Henry VIII left the Catholic Church in England, there was religious persecution of Catholics (think death here) and many from Ireland and England were forced to give up their property and were expelled to the New World. Then, too, look at the persecution of the Church in France during the revolution – it was chiefly an anti-clerical persecution.

It must be easy to do a search on these things and get some (?) reliable information to help your friend achieve some mental balance on who-killed-who back then.

 

[wmscott]

How can one tell when they really aren’t reaching someone? I mean, she keeps initiating these conversations, not me.

That’s absolutely not a viable option. This lady is a very good friend. I could get away with telling her I would rather not discuss these things, I cannot get away with ‘referring her’ to someone else to answer her. She’s not asking pointed questions, persay, she’s bringing up faith matters constantly. She shares what she believes, I share what I believe and then the fireworks start.

Sorry, I suppose I should have been more direct in my OP. It’s not as if she’s coming to me and asking: What do Catholics believe about…? No. She’s saying: In Revelation it says we’re in the end times! And I’ll say: Actually, it’s my understanding that Revelation is about something else.

Or she’ll say: All we need is the Bible.
and I’ll say: The Bible introduces us to God but the Church and Sacred Tradition teach us how to be holier (or something along those lines).

Of course these aren’t exact copies of our conversations but just the general gist of how things go. She brings up a faith issue, I respond with what I’ve been taught, she argues why I’m wrong and then won’t drop the issue even after she’s all riled up.

Sometimes I’ll post my notes on Facebook (I write some notes about the Catholic faith on Facebook every now and then, just to share new things I’ve discovered that I think are awesome and that make me appreciate my faith) and she’ll approach me in person to discuss whatever it was I wrote. Usually to tell me why what I discovered is completely wrong but yeah… That’s more the situation here.

Ah, it’s just kind of complicated because she IS a friend and we have a long history.

Another issue may be that the truth is a hard pill to swallow when you were raised to believe one way and find out that throughout your whole life it was a lie or misrepresentation. It shakes some to their core to learn the truth; the hard part is accepting it.

 

[casey_zia]

And don’t forget it’s GOD who does the converting, changing hearts, softening ideologies, resolving the unresolvable. We are instruments, prayer-warriors, using our talents and resources to enhance His Kingdom, but don’t forget that it’s all in His time and in His way.

We have a wonderful friend who was brought up Catholic, but left at age 19 and became a Christian! He’s become a common fixture around here, loves the kids and ambiance, loves the food and goodies, and will often bring up anti-Catholic rhetoric. He doesn’t stand a chance with his arguments, he’s only got about 6 bible verses to his credit, and we’ve got 3 budding apologists (teenagers) who love the banter, and a husband/dad who knows history, and all of us are pretty knowledgeable about the Catholic faith. He initially was truly fearful for our salvation, didn’t want us to go to hell with all the rest of the Catholics, but now he’s simply more curious about what the church teaches. He’s even approached the parish priest about returning to the sacraments, but has some things in his life to sort out. Anyways, we never bring up the Catholic stuff, he does when he’s ready. And it’s been a good lesson for all of us about charity, prudence, and keeping a sense of humor. God is doing his own healing work, it’s not our battle. Meanwhile, he’s absorbing family life, and how we bring our faith into our relationships and the world.

So you are doing good, the undercurrents of your witness (to truth and love) will have an effect, just maybe not yet. Keep praying for her, and praying for wisdom for you in your interactions. And remember: charity, prudence, sense of humor go a long way…

 

[bmonk]

I agree–charity and a kind, peace-filled heart go better than confrontation. It may be true that the secular authorities, not the Church as such, burned heretics, but that sort of antagonism rarely leads to anything good.

As long as she is willing to continue bringing it up, I’d be willing to keep talking. On occasion, I might ask if she is willing to go on in light of how it seems to irritate her–especially when she first brings up religious topics. But it’s her choice.