When white folk won't describe black folk by their race

[John_Lazarus]

You can take it from the kids…
When I moved to a southern state to teach, I had a lot more “students of color.” In a small group setting, as I was the reading teacher, I kept referring to the students as African American just in general conversation. I thought that was proper. One little girl asked me why I do that? I said do what? She said call us African Americans. I asked her what she wanted me to call her. She said black. Oh, I had so much to learn!!! Still do…

YMMV. Some prefer “black”, others “African-American”, others “people of color”…you don’t know what each individual wants to be called, so be careful.

Although it’s rather minor in comparison, i despise the term “Newf” or “Newfie” to describe Newfoundlanders, so much so that I cringe when I hear the term used to refer to Newfoundland dogs (much as a Labrador Retriever is a “Lab”). But some people use it out of ignorance, not malice.

And ideally, using skin tone as a visual marker should (emphasis on “should”) be no more problematic than, say, hair color. But face it, it is. There’s a whole lot of baggage over race, and it is still going to take a lot of time to sort itself out. So, be sensitive when using the terms, and try not to be too sensitive when hearing the terms, and don’t ascribe to malice that which can adequately be explained by ignorance.

And eventually, we’ll be able to come up with universally-accepted descriptors that won’t offend anyone, and people won’t be offended by being described so.

(I’m not white, I’m melanin-challenged. )

 

[KendraDZ1902]

I don’t describe my husband as black. Where I grew up most people just assume that blacks are thugs and I don’t want people to assume that about my hubby. A lot of people won’t ask what he looks like, but will want to know things about him. They just totally assume that he is white. Some have been shocked after meeting him. Oh well.

People totally assume that DH is married to a white person. So most aren’t shocked when they meet me.

 

[on_the_hill]

You can take it from the kids…
When I moved to a southern state to teach, I had a lot more “students of color.” In a small group setting, as I was the reading teacher, I kept referring to the students as African American just in general conversation. I thought that was proper. One little girl asked me why I do that? I said do what? She said call us African Americans. I asked her what she wanted me to call her. She said black. Oh, I had so much to learn!!! Still do…

I had a college intern who once referred to herself as “colored.” That’s a lesson I’ll stay away from.

 

[on_the_hill]

I remember hearing a clip of Mike Wallace (60 Minutes) ask Morgan Freeman when we will finally end racism.

Freeman answered, “When you stop referring to me as a black man, and I stop referring to you as a white man.”

 

[JRKH]

I remember hearing a clip of Mike Wallace (60 Minutes) ask Morgan Freeman when we will finally end racism.

Freeman answered, “When you stop referring to me as a black man, and I stop referring to you as a white man.”

See - I disagree with this.
As this thread indicates, black and white are legitimate descriptors of a person.

Peace
James

 

[MJJean]

See - I disagree with this.
As this thread indicates, black and white are legitimate descriptors of a person.

Peace
James

I agree. Skin color is as useful as a descriptive as hair color or eye color or the color of the clothing being worn.

Maybe racism will end when people accept and embrace differences instead of being so darn sensitive about it.

I like that we have different races. How boring the human race would be if we were all the same color.

 

[Et_Cetera]

Ever have it happen that a white person will totally avoid describing a black or Asian person by their race, even when it would be easiest way to differentiate them from others in the room? They will describe a person by their clothing when they are the only Asian in the room.

It’s an unnecessary way to describe someone. The color of their shirt, their age, height, name, accessories to their person like glasses, jewelry, etc. are fine descriptors. When you use race it can sound like you’re implying that their race is their most important feature (even if it’s not your intention), when everyone is an individual, and race is mostly socially constructed. I am going to assume you’re Caucasian (as am I), and I think it’s easier to ask a question like this when you’re used to being the privileged race. You might think, “Well, I wouldn’t care if someone called me ‘the white girl/guy’.” But what you need to consider is that the Caucasian race has not been marginalized like other races have been in America. So for others, it might be offensive to have to think, “Oh, to her of course I’m just the black guy, not the engineer or the little league coach.” Certainly you can see how it would be frustrating to feel like your race overshadows your other traits and attributes. By describing someone in a way that you would use to describe people of your own race, you show more respect for the other person.

 

[Raskolnikov]

See - I disagree with this.
As this thread indicates, black and white are legitimate descriptors of a person.

Peace
James

I think Freeman was referring to it as “in principle” so to speak; that is, aspiring toward a state where race is considered an irrelevant characteristic, more like hair color or eye color.

And of course, I doubt anyone would consider it offensive to be referred to as ‘the blonde guy’ or whatever.

 

[marci]

If you’re white, then you won’t know what it’s like to experience racism from cradle to grave…

I was the only white girl in my entire HS (my cousin was the only white guy). There was not a day that went by that I was not called derogatory names. Even worse, on several occasions I had to be escorted to my car after school by the principle so I wouldn’t get “jumped”.

There is no singular race that has cornered the market on racism.

 

[Raskolnikov]

It’s an unnecessary way to describe someone. The color of their shirt, their age, height, name, accessories to their person like glasses, jewelry, etc. are fine descriptors. When you use race it can sound like you’re implying that their race is their most important feature (even if it’s not your intention), when everyone is an individual, and race is mostly socially constructed. I am going to assume you’re Caucasian (as am I), and I think it’s easier to ask a question like this when you’re used to being the privileged race. You might think, “Well, I wouldn’t care if someone called me ‘the white girl/guy’.” But what you need to consider is that the Caucasian race has not been marginalized like other races have been in America. So for others, it might be offensive to have to think, “Oh, to her of course I’m just the black guy, not the engineer or the little league coach.” Certainly you can see how it would be frustrating to feel like your race overshadows your other traits and attributes. By describing someone in a way that you would use to describe people of your own race, you show more respect for the other person.

I don’t think this is necessarily so. Physical characteristics like race can indeed be the most distinguishing characteristic, and I think in many contexts it is not at all offensive, especially in situations where people are dressed similarly and such.

In any case, just because one feels offended does not mean one should feel offended; not all indignation is righteous indignation.

 

[NurseBetty]

You still have to be sensitive about it though, if people have experienced repeated prejudice you’re ham-fisted carelessness will hurt them more. It’s important to see things from the other side. If you’re white, then you won’t know what it’s like to experience racism from cradle to grave. So you’re in no place to really comment on whether people are being sensitive or not.

Yes, but if you don’t know the person’s name and are trying to describe them, can’t you just say “the black lady”? What’s wrong with describing their color, if they are the only one with that color? I don’t see that as being racist.

 

[Raskolnikov]

I was the only white girl in my entire HS (my cousin was the only white guy). There was not a day that went by that I was not called derogatory names. Even worse, on several occasions I had to be escorted to my car after school by the principle so I wouldn’t get “jumped”.

There is no singular race that has cornered the market on racism.

This is true, but be careful; once someone claims a monopoly on victimhood, they will defend it with their lives.

Seriously, the idea that anti-white racism is not prevalent in minority communities is laughable, and anyone who hasn’t been surrounded by white people their whole lives knows it. And one cannot try to explain it away as the result of socio-economic circumstances without using the exact same rationalization for white racism (neither should be rationalized). White people are no more a* causa sui* than people of other races.

 

[severus68]

It’s an unnecessary way to describe someone. The color of their shirt, their age, height, name, accessories to their person like glasses, jewelry, etc. are fine descriptors. When you use race it can sound like you’re implying that their race is their most important feature (even if it’s not your intention), when everyone is an individual, and race is mostly socially constructed. I am going to assume you’re Caucasian (as am I), and I think it’s easier to ask a question like this when you’re used to being the privileged race. You might think, “Well, I wouldn’t care if someone called me ‘the white girl/guy’.” But what you need to consider is that the Caucasian race has not been marginalized like other races have been in America. So for others, it might be offensive to have to think, “Oh, to her of course I’m just the black guy, not the engineer or the little league coach.” Certainly you can see how it would be frustrating to feel like your race overshadows your other traits and attributes. By describing someone in a way that you would use to describe people of your own race, you show more respect for the other person.

Yes.

 

[hsmomforlife]

But, in the end, does it matter? I would think not.

Clinton

It only matters if you are trying to pick someone out of a crowd of people…IMHO give ALL of the physical characteristics that will help ID someone…(I’m not happy about being the middle aged pudgy, white chick with salt and pepper hair…but that’s a pretty accurate description! maybe you could say I had hazel eyes… )
I don’t always ID my daughter with Down syndrome as such, but there are times when I will say " we are a family of five…Mom, Dad, 6’ tall dark haired son, 5’ tall dark haired son and the little ‘stumpy’ one with Down syndrome (yup, she’s a little on the short side and ‘stumpy’ is a loving family nickname!)…her name is Nat and you will probably meet her before the rest of us…"
Does it matter? Yes and no…it matters if you need to know what we look like to find us in a crowd…but that shouldn’t ‘matter’ as you decide if you want to know my family or not.

 

[JRKH]

This discussion reminded me of an old Tracy - Hepburn movie that I always liked called “Desk Set” (not one of their more popular pieces of work).

In the movie Spencer Tracy’s character is giving Katherine Hepburn’s character a personality test. one of the exchanges goes like this…

Richard Sumner: Now what is the first thing you notice in a person?

Bunny Watson: Whether the person is male or female.
Share this

Richard Sumner: That’s correct!

Bunny Watson: Yes, I know.

It strikes me that skin color falls into this same sort of category. It is simply something that is going to be noticed almost immediately - in the same way that one notices the gender of a person. Skin tone is a descriptor - it need not be anything more.

Peace
James

 

[laircy]

I think it stems from people (especially minorities) who think the lighter you are, the better. I know I have heard black people talk about be light-skinned as a good thing and the same with Latins.

Meanwhile, white people have this common perception that in order to look good, they must become as tan as possible, even go to the lengths of spraying false color on themselves. I don’t know how many times I’ve been told I “need to get some sun.” I find it so bizarre.

 

[severus68]

This discussion reminded me of an old Tracy - Hepburn movie that I always liked called “Desk Set” (not one of their more popular pieces of work).

In the movie Spencer Tracy’s character is giving Katherine Hepburn’s character a personality test. one of the exchanges goes like this…

Richard Sumner: Now what is the first thing you notice in a person?

Bunny Watson: Whether the person is male or female.
Share this

Richard Sumner: That’s correct!

Bunny Watson: Yes, I know.

It strikes me that skin color falls into this same sort of category. It is simply something that is going to be noticed almost immediately - in the same way that one notices the gender of a person. Skin tone is a descriptor - it need not be anything more.

Peace
James

Actually, children don’t notice until they are taught otherwise. They will play and fight with each other, have as much fun with one as with another.

 

[Pug]

Actually, children don’t notice until they are taught otherwise. They will play and fight with each other, have as much fun with one as with another.

Sure they notice colors. They just don’t care with regards to playing. I was fascinated the first time I saw a deep black person instead of a brown person. Same with an albino person.

 

[polytropos]

Is there a social taboo against this?

It is perceived as a social taboo to some. My parents (raised in the '60s and '70s) have confided to me that they were taught “colorblindness” as an ideal, ie. you are not supposed to identify people with their skin color. I think this was sort of an extreme interpretation of civil rights that is no longer considered the best way to approach equality.

 

[Country_Gal]

Actually, children don’t notice until they are taught otherwise. They will play and fight with each other, have as much fun with one as with another.

Children do notice. I remember a when I was 4 yrs old, in nursery school, back in the early 1960s. The was an Asian little girl and I asked the teacher about her eyes, why the were different.

She got all nervous and said that her eyes weren’t any different. Lesson learned: I was an idiot who didn’t know what I was seeing or talking about.