When will Lutherans and Anglicans merge?

[EvangelCatholic]

I am not sure if it is true now, but several years ago I heard more congregations left the ELCA over the proposed communion with the Episcopal Church than over the sexuality statement. As a result of the communion, the ELCA is trying to re-establish apostolic succession for its pastors. The chain was broken early in American Lutheran history as there were not enough pastors who held apostolic succession who were willing to come to North America, and there were many congregations begging for trained clergy.

That is an interesting comment that more parishes left the ELCA over the issue of full communion with the Episcopal Church than allowing gay marriage/clergy.

For the ELCA, it was a two-fold decision to return to the Apostolic Succession of the mother Lutheran Church in Europe as well as enter into full communion with Anglicans as was done many years ago with the Porvoo Communion. Interestingly, there were Lutheran bishops who immigrated to America; even in the LCMS. But apostolic succession seemed to be less of a concern in the 1700’s and 1800’s.

 

[steido01]

I am a former LCMS Lutheran. I was educated in the LCMS from parochial school to seminary.

In the 1970’s a rift occurred within the LCMS over relatively minor concerns regarding historical critical biblical interpretation. The president of Concordia Seminary in St Louis, Fr John Tiejten, led the faculty and seminarians out of the seminary behind a processional crucifix in protest over fundamentalist pressure from Synod hierarchy. These faithful Lutherans expressed strong catholic commitment but would not be forced into ecclesiastical submission; the Missouri Synod spit. Now a part of the ELCA, these former LCMS Lutherans were a catalyst for all Lutherans to unite under exegesis toleration and a return to apostolic succession.

Yes, yes, it was all very well and dramatic. Respectfully, I must disagree: the concerns regarding false doctrine being taught at Concordia were anything but “minor.” Another way of looking at the situation was that the LCMS purged itself of “Lutherans in name only” (and borderline heretics) and returned to the Word of God and the Confessions.

I have no doubt that the ELCA and TEC will continue to lead the liberal wings of Lutheranism and Anglicanism toward a bolstered, superficial bond. But without doctrinal agreement, what is the point? When doctrine is abandoned for the sake of “communion at all costs,” groups like herchurch emerge - such movements will only become more prevelant and influential when the liberal dream comes to fruition.

On the other end of the spectrum, the ACNA and LCMS have just recently published a joint resolution on marriage. It will not be the last joint effort from the two - these traditional bodies will never merge, but they do understand how they can work together without compromising sound doctrine.

 

[just_came_back]

Meh…just means more open homosexual ministers and more funding for abortion. In other words, 2 “bodies of Christ” essentially denying their very Lord.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Yes, yes, it was all very well and dramatic. Respectfully, I must disagree: the concerns regarding false doctrine being taught at Concordia were anything but “minor.” Another way of looking at the situation was that the LCMS purged itself of “Lutherans in name only” (and borderline heretics) and returned to the Word of God and the Confessions.

I have no doubt that the ELCA and TEC will continue to lead the liberal wings of Lutheranism and Anglicanism toward a bolstered, superficial bond. But without doctrinal agreement, what is the point? When doctrine is abandoned for the sake of “communion at all costs,” groups like herchurch emerge - such movements will only become more prevelant and influential when the liberal dream comes to fruition.

On the other end of the spectrum, the ACNA and LCMS have just recently published a joint resolution on marriage. It will not be the last joint effort from the two - these traditional bodies will never merge, but they do understand how they can work together without compromising sound doctrine.

You may be correct, Don but I think the ‘writing is on the wall’ so to speak. “Borderline heretics”, really? Nearly all the seminary professors and administrators left Concordia Seminary; so they were actually “heretics”? Can you elaborate, please?

As far as the ‘herchurch’ group, there is considerable concern about that parish in the ELCA. But one must understand that Ebenezer church is in San Francisco, a very liberal area of the nation. The Sierra Pacific Synod’s bishop is well aware of the “Goddess rosary” ceremonies but wants to handle the situation carefully and not create problems with gay Lutherans.

 

[Peter_J]

On the other end of the spectrum, the ACNA and LCMS have just recently published a joint resolution on marriage. It will not be the last joint effort from the two - these traditional bodies will never merge,

No, I don’t expect they will. Seems to me that the ELCA-ECUSA full communion agreement came from two factors: (1) setting an incredibly low bar for union, and (2) setting an incredibly high bar for lack-of-union. I don’t see either of those two things in the LCMS or the ACNA.

(P.S. I can imagine what the ELCA and ECUSA say about them. “See? The conservatives can’t even get into communion with each other!” or what-not.)

 

[JonNC]

No, I don’t expect they will. Seems to me that the ELCA-ECUSA full communion agreement came from two factors: (1) setting an incredibly low bar for union, and (2) setting an incredibly high bar for lack-of-union. I don’t see either of those two things in the LCMS or the ACNA.

(P.S. I can imagine what the ELCA and ECUSA say about them. “See? The conservatives can’t even get into communion with each other!” or what-not.)

GKC and I have mused about this in the past. The problem that “conservative” Anglicans and Lutherans share is the importance of doctrine. I might contend that the respect we have for each other as a result, is long-term a stronger unity than one brokered on “anything goes”.

Jon

 

[GKC]

GKC and I have mused about this in the past. The problem that “conservative” Anglicans and Lutherans share is the importance of doctrine. I might contend that the respect we have for each other as a result, is long-term a stronger unity than one brokered on “anything goes”.

Jon

Yea, verily.

GKC

 

[MaryT777]

A couple of thoughts.

1. There has emerged a dialogue of sorts between the LCMS and ACNA. Neither seems to project this as a precursor for unity, but only for closer relations to pursue the ministry of Christ in the world in whatever ways we can jointly. Good thing.
2. Amongst confessional Lutherans, however, is this little thing whereby unity requires unity of doctrine, and it seems Anglo-Catholics (I would surmise could be considered the Anglican version of confessional Lutherans) appear to have a similarly high standard for unity. I have on occasion wondered aloud to GKC here why our liberal wings can find unity, but our conservative wings cannot. That’s the reason.

And yet, from a personal POV, I’d probably fit better in an Anglo-Catholic setting, than a liberal Lutheran one.

Jon

but Jon…
The Catholics are conservative and yet we can’t even agree on Justification yet…
You’ve answered the question; different standards of unity.

 

[MaryT777]

Does anyone recognize the irony of all of this? King Henry VIII, the founder of the Anglican Church, was named “Defender of the Faith” for his opposition to Martin Luther! And, dispite his break with Rome, he remained opposed to Luther for the rest of his life.

Yes, indeed. I noticed that…

 

[MaryT777]

I’m up to … hold on, I have to think for a sec … 279 … 280 … 281 … 282 … Okay not really, I just couldn’t resist throwing in a little (bad) joke. Well, and I wanted to use the pshaw icon.

and I about um… 300 or so

 

[GKC]

and I about um… 300 or so

I bought 12 last Saturday, two yesterday. And a friend picked up roughly 10 for me Monday.

It never ends.

GKC

 

[Picky_Picky]

The current royal family I think, is Windsor, Where and when did they come into being? If Henry VIII was a Tudor?

Well, I’m not sure you really want to know this, but … Henry VIII’s children (Edward VI, Mary I, Elizabeth I) had no offspring so the crown went to the House of Stuart (in the person of the descendants of Henry’s sister Margaret Tudor), and when the Stuarts ran out of non-Catholic heirs it passed to the House of Hanover (in the person of descendants of Charles I’s sister Elizabeth Stuart), and when Victoria of the House of Hanover married Prince Albert it became the House of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha but during the First World War that name was thought to be (unaccountably) German, and the name was changed to Windsor. When Elizabeth II married Prince Philip the name of the royal house could have changed to the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Gluecksburg but they seem to have thought keeping it Windsor was simpler. OK?

 

[GKC]

Well, I’m not sure you really want to know this, but … Henry VIII’s children (Edward VI, Mary I, Elizabeth I) had no offspring so the crown went to the House of Stuart (in the person of the descendants of Henry’s sister Margaret Tudor), and when the Stuarts ran out of non-Catholic heirs it passed to the House of Hanover (in the person of descendants of Charles I’s sister Elizabeth Stuart), and when Victoria of the House of Hanover married Prince Albert it became the House of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha but during the First World War that name was thought to be (unaccountably) German, and the name was changed to Windsor. When Elizabeth II married Prince Philip the name of the royal house could have changed to the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Gluecksburg but they seem to have thought keeping it Windsor was simpler. OK?

True.

GKC

 

[steido01]

GKC and I have mused about this in the past. The problem that “conservative” Anglicans and Lutherans share is the importance of doctrine. I might contend that the respect we have for each other as a result, is long-term a stronger unity than one brokered on “anything goes”.

Jon

I’d have loved to be a fly on the wall for those musings. I entirely agree.

Even though our differences are still church-dividing, it is good to keep in mind how much we do have in common. I remember a shocking moment in my teens, when my father (a staunchly confessional LCMS pastor) mentioned that he considered an Episcopal seminary for some time, before his acceptance to Concordia St. Louis. Part of me wonders if that had anything to do with my lovely formerly-Anglican mother… Point is, it’s refreshing to know that there are other catholic denominations that place an emphasis on right doctrine.

 

[benjohnson]

Point is, it’s refreshing to know that there are other catholic denominations that place an emphasis on right doctrine.

In my travels in France, I found that the more conservative Catholics made me much more welcome. I also found that I appreciated them much more strongly.

The doors to the modern Catholic churches were often locked, but if I found a church with hundreds years of steadfast love then usually the doors were open, the candles lit and I often found good and godly company.

 

[steido01]

You may be correct, Don but I think the ‘writing is on the wall’ so to speak. “Borderline heretics”, really? Nearly all the seminary professors and administrators left Concordia Seminary; so they were actually “heretics”? Can you elaborate, please?

As far as the ‘herchurch’ group, there is considerable concern about that parish in the ELCA. But one must understand that Ebenezer church is in San Francisco, a very liberal area of the nation. The Sierra Pacific Synod’s bishop is well aware of the “Goddess rosary” ceremonies but wants to handle the situation carefully and not create problems with gay Lutherans.

I apologize for my lack of clarity. Not all the professors who left were removed because of false teaching, I know. I know that some left of their own accord because of the less-than-diplomatic way the situation was handled and for other individual, emotional reasons. I would never suggest that those good men who left in frustration on their own were heretics (in fact, the churches that would become the ELCA gained some brilliant theologians via the walkout - though I wonder how many of these men would make the same choice had they known what the ELCA would become?). Yet even those who were forcibly removed from the faculty, I would not outright call heretical - my use of “borderline” was intentional and refers to the false doctrines they were found to have been promoting. I attempted to choose my words carefully, but I could have been more clear.

In any case, Preus’ [mis]handling of the situation does not excuse the doctrinal errors that professors had taught to their students. The fact that the splinter group began ordaining women just a few years later is vindication that the faculty was, if not actively pushing a liberal agenda, at least allowing it. And it only takes a cursory view to see what their lack of sound doctrine has wrought on the churches they pulled with them (e.g. - the Sierra Pacific Synod and herchurch Ebenzer).

A liberal Anglican-Lutheran merger will, sadly, be a melding of two churches already devoid of substantive doctrinal belief.

 

[JonNC]

I apologize for my lack of clarity. Not all the professors who left were removed because of false teaching, I know. I know that some left of their own accord because of the less-than-diplomatic way the situation was handled and for other individual, emotional reasons. I would never suggest that those good men who left in frustration on their own were heretics (in fact, the churches that would become the ELCA gained some brilliant theologians via the walkout - though I wonder how many of these men would make the same choice had they known what the ELCA would become?). Yet even those who were forcibly removed from the faculty, I would not outright call heretical - my use of “borderline” was intentional and refers to the false doctrines they were found to have been promoting. I attempted to choose my words carefully, but I could have been more clear.

In any case, Preus’ [mis]handling of the situation does not excuse the doctrinal errors that professors had taught to their students. The fact that the splinter group began ordaining women just a few years later is vindication that the faculty was, if not actively pushing a liberal agenda, at least allowing it. And it only takes a cursory view to see what their lack of sound doctrine has wrought on the churches they pulled with them (e.g. - the Sierra Pacific Synod and herchurch Ebenzer).

A liberal Anglican-Lutheran merger will, sadly, be a melding of two churches already devoid of substantive doctrinal belief.

Perhaps a better word than heretic would be heterodox. - in most instances.

Jon

 

[steido01]

Perhaps a better word than heretic would be heterodox. - in most instances.

Jon

Yes, that’s definitely a better descriptor. Thanks, Jon.

I think heresy still fits for “Goddess” worship, though.

 

[JonNC]

Yes, that’s definitely a better descriptor. Thanks, Jon.

I think heresy still fits for “Goddess” worship, though.

That, or apostasy.

Jon

 

[EvangelCatholic]

Don & Jon

As I have mentioned before, I am a product of the Missouri Synod; my parents and many family members stayed in the LCMS during the unfortunate time at Concordia Seminary but were unhappy how the situation split the church. My strong catholic roots were a result of being brought up in the Missouri Synod. At Concordia - Bronxville and then when I attended Valparaiso the Eucharist was offered several times a week including Sundays on campus. At Concordia - Fort Wayne we celebrated Mass daily; as practiced at Concordia - St Louis. Many of those who left the LCMS were devout catholics who no doubt influenced the ELCA. I can’t say that these former Missouri Synod Lutherans were why the ELCA adopted apostolic succession since the Augustana Synod were Swedes but we had an impact of moving American Lutheranism toward fuller catholic practices.

Having said that, I see the LCMS as conservative and narrow-minded in a way that will and is causing trouble for the faithful. My sister and many in my wife’s family left the LCMS to join the ELCA because they wanted to serve the Church in more ways than just being on the altar guild. Like being able to read the lessons and distribute the sacrament. Even Roman Catholics allow that but not the Missouri Synod. Also,the gay issue will continue to divide the LCMS.

BTW, the pastor of Ebenezer parish was a student of Christ Seminary [Seminex]; she was taught by professors from Concordia Seminary. No one condoned what she is now doing. Another former LCMS parish is the University Chapel at Cal-Berkeley where the Goddess rosary is also said. The local bishop does not like what is going on and has said so but is being judicious and careful not to alienate gay Lutherans.