When will the insanity end?

[Cathdefender]

Ok, I’ll add there are 34,000 denominations because there is a new ministry being formed called “Hard as nails ministry”. Headed by some 29 year old guy who is supposedly “tough as nails” on teenagers and kids. COME ON PEOPLE IS THIS THE WAY TO GO? My God, how can these parents ok these kids to belong to ridiculous sects of Protestanism as this?
Fact is:
There are over 33,000 denominatons in 238 countries of Protestanism and every year there is a net increase of around 270 to 300 denominations according to David Barrett’s study.
There are 800 million Protestants worldwide. These include 170 million in North America, 160 million in Africa, 120 million in Europe, etc… I’m sorry but more than one church is too many anyway, because, Jesus did not establish many churches with contradictory beliefs.

 

[c659smith]

Cathdefender, take a deep breath and please read this post carefully. I know you are passionate about defending the Catholic Church. So am I, but we have to do it using correct facts, don’t we?

There are NOT tens of thousands of Protestant denominations.

Yes, you see thousands of churches listed in the phone book (depending on how large your city is), but each of these churches is not a separate denomination. Many of the churches are part of the same denomination (e.g., there may be dozens or even hundreds of Southern Baptist churches in one city, but they are all of the Southern Baptist denomination).

I tried to explain the “33,000” statistic in an earlier post, but I’ll try it again. Perhaps I was too confusing the first time. Please tell me if this is still unclear.

My husband looked up the original source of the “33,000 denominations” statistic.

The organization that arrived at this number did so by considering the different countries as having different denominations. For example, “Christian and Missionary Alliance” is ONE denomination (I spent ten years in it). It is the same denomination in the U.S. as it is in all the other countries in the world–approximately 80 countries.

But the organization that cranked out the statistics considers each country as having a DIFFERENT Christian and Missionary Alliance denomination, thus they arrived at a figure of “80 different Christian and Missionary Alliance” denominations.

And this is simply NOT TRUE!! The Christian and Missionary Alliance is headed up by ONE denominational “council” which is headquartered in Colorado Springs, Colorado. This “council” runs ALL the C and MA churches in the world, in all 80 countries! It is ONE denomination, not 80!

Imagine applying this approach for EVERY Protestant denomination! Some Protestant denoms (e.g., United Methodist) are in almost every country in the world–according to this approach, then, there would be thousands of United Methodist denominations.

And this is just NOT TRUE!!!

Also, the organization who used this approach to arrive at the horribly inflated number of “33,000 denominations” considered the Catholic Church as a denomination. I didn’t call it a denomination, the statistic organization did!!! (That should tell you something about the organization–they didn’t do their research very well, did they?)

And since the Catholic Church is in every country in the world, the organization arrived at a gigantic number of “Catholic denominations.”

Do you understand now why the figure “33,000 denominations” is simply UNTRUE? It’s just really really BAD statistical analysis. The formula that was used is flawed really big time! We can’t use it! It’s incorrect.

So PLEASE stop throwing the statistic of “tens of thousands” or “33,000 denominations” around. It is really wrong. It’s like saying 2 + 2 = 5. Saying such a thing over and over makes you look ignorant.

We don’t need to use faulty statistics to defend the Catholic Church. Doing so hurts our credibility and causes intelligent people to stop listening to us. Would YOU pay attention to someone who insists that 2 + 2 = 5? Of course not.

Other organizations who have counted denominations have arrived at figures of between 80 and 300 Protestant denominations. If you were to analyze the list of churches in a phone book in a large city, you would probably come up with a figure more simliar to this than “tens of thousands.”

And this is still really bad. You don’t need to inflate the numbers to sober up non-Catholics. 80 “true” churches of Jesus?!! (or maybe even 300?!) Surely this isn’t what Jesus intended in John 17, is it?

So what denominations would you call the new mega church’s (ARE THEY CULTS) and the divisions within the organized church’s such as Baptists, Episcopalians, Methodists , Lutheran’s, etc… that do not follow their councils?

How could one Baptist Church be pro-life and another Pro-Choice.

How could one Episcopal Church have women priest and gay marriages and another not.

These are splits and as such are to be considered denominations in any sense of the word.

 

[Jimmy_B]

So what denominations would you call the new mega church’s (ARE THEY CULTS) and the divisions within the organized church’s such as Baptists, Episcopalians, Methodists , Lutheran’s, etc… that do not follow their councils?

How could one Baptist Church be pro-life and another Pro-Choice.

How could one Episcopal Church have women priest and gay marriages and another not.

These are splits and as such are to be considered denominations in any sense of the word.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Ok, I’ll add there are 34,000 denominations because there is a new ministry being formed called “Hard as nails ministry”. Headed by some 29 year old guy who is supposedly “tough as nails” on teenagers and kids…

I am sure that there are some here who would like to see a denomination like this, to “straighten-out” old “grumpy” Catholic guys like me.

 

[Nickkname]

Great, so what do we all do in the meantime?

Pray, love, and eat Peeps.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Thank you, I knew you would finally come to your senses and see it my way.

Thanks again SIA

 

[SIA]

I am sure that there are some here who would like to see a denomination like this, to “straighten-out” old “grumpy” Catholic guys like me.

I don’t think anyone could straighten you out. Just like I don’t think anyone is going to straighten me out either.

 

[Jimmy_B]

I don’t think anyone could straighten you out. Just like I don’t think anyone is going to straighten me out either.

Good one!

 

[strngrnrth]

Maybe Ann Landers was right after all and the key to sanity is to be able to laugh, especially at oneself.
Or maybe we just need to love one another and let others react however they want.
It’s so easy until you leave the house in the morning.:coffeeread:

 

[Jimmy_B]

Maybe Ann Landers was right after all and the key to sanity is to be able to laugh, especially at oneself.
Or maybe we just need to love one another and let others react however they want.
It’s so easy until you leave the house in the morning.:coffeeread:

Hello strngrnrth,

I agree with your entire post here but now, I would like for you to respond to the questions in the first post on this thread…if you want to…

Thanks!

Peace

 

[strngrnrth]

Why not? It’s time to get back into the center of this lane.

When will the insanity end? When will all the infighting stop? When will there be true Christian unity…unity in beliefs?
When people want unity and when the reasons for some beliefs rather than others are widely understood. There might not be total unity in this world.
Because of the flawed doctrine of “personal interpretation”, today, there are approximately 40,000 different, Protestant, non-Catholic Christian denominations, divisions and subdivisions, each and everyone one of them, with a little different “spin” on Christianity.

I would like to hear a Protestant explain the logic or biblical bases for these divisions and sub-divisions of Christianity.
Personal interpretation has led to “mob rule” and chaos and it has weakened Christianity. It is the old, “divide and conquer” principle and we are dividing and conquering ourselves.

Imagine how much greater Christianity would be and all the great things that we could accomplish, working together as one faith, which was truly united…
True enough.
The insanity needs to stop….Where living in a world today, where anyone who has a Bible can become a “minister” and start his or her own (Protestant) Christian denomination. People now can pay a small free and become “ordained ministers”, over the internet. Many people today are having non-denominational ministers perform their marriage ceremonies. What is a “non-denominational ministers” anyways…this does not even make any sense.

Some ministers make a living, just marring people. They have drive-through marriage chapels and Elvis impersonators who perform marriages in Las Vegas. There are ministers on TV who claim to heal people and ask for your money. Some ministers and preachers today wear Rolex watches, drive expensive cars and live in multi-million dollar mansions, all paid for with the monies that were given to them, with the intention that it would go to help the needy. Yeah, that’s always turned me off and I know lots of other people it turns off, too. But some people don’t mind.

There is even a “drunken minister” on the Jerry Springer show.

All these so-called “Ministers of God” belong to some Protestant denomination. People today have made a mockery of Christianity and a mockery of Holy Sacraments, like marriage. The main cause of all this nonsense can be blamed on “personal interpretation” of the Bible.

I know that there are some good and decent ministers and decent denominations out there but with personal interpretation, even a “normal ministers” could error and join the ranks of all the other crazy’s.

Why don’t the “squared away” denominations, reign in the nut cases? They don’t, because they can’t…They can’t, because they too believe in the flawed doctrine of “personal interpretation” or, “to each his own”…right?. Basically.

I am sure that there exist some Protestants out their who are just as offended as I am with the breakdown of Christianity…What are your thoughts and how is anybody going to correct these problems, without central leadership, oversight and a chain of command?
That’s why they’re all talking about the need for unity and leadership and training and authority within their larger denominational umbrellas now – for example, all the neo-Pentecostal groups trying to unite and form some kind of organization.
I pray for true Christian Unity….
I think almost all of us do.
Peace

Jimmy B.

 

[Protestant101]

Some ministers and preachers today wear Rolex watches, drive expensive cars and live in multi-million dollar mansions, all paid for with the monies that were given to them, with the intention that it would go to help the needy.

I pray for true Christian Unity….

Peace

Jimmy B.

I guess you missed telling us how much those clothes and accessories that the Pope wears/uses cost? Or that “mansion” that he lives in? How much would that be per month? Lets have a list of ALL of the Vatican’s expenses for the Pope and see just where your accusations really stand. No religion is exempt from the extravagance and excess “of the world.” The Pomp and Pagentry I have seen in the Catholic Church seems quite excessive, given the nature of your complaint - one of many that you have levelled at Protestants on this forum.

The only so called “unity” you are talking about here is submission to the Pope.

 

[Jimmy_B]

I guess you missed telling us how much those clothes and accessories that the Pope wears/uses cost? Or that “mansion” that he lives in? How much would that be per month? Lets have a list of ALL of the Vatican’s expenses for the Pope and see just where your accusations really stand. No religion is exempt from the extravagance and excess “of the world.” The Pomp and Pagentry I have seen in the Catholic Church seems quite excessive, given the nature of your complaint - one of many that you have levelled at Protestants on this forum.

The only so called “unity” you are talking about here is submission to the Pope.

Hello Protestant 101,

I think that you may be a little confused…For example, Catholic priests do not receive a salary and neither does the Pope and the “mansion” you say, the Pope resides in, is not a “mansion”, it is that Vatican and it does not belong to the Pope; it is not his personal property. The Pope resides in an apartment, within the Vatican … but you probably already knew that.

Peace

 

[Jimmy_B]

Hello Protestant 101,

I think that you may be a little confused…For example, Catholic priests do not receive a salary and neither does the Pope and the “mansion” you say, the Pope resides in, is not a “mansion”, it is the Vatican and it does not belong to the Pope; it is not his personal property. The Pope resides in an apartment, within the Vatican … but you probably already knew that.

Peace

A similar example (with the exception, that soldiers receive a salary), would be the U.S. Army,; where its members receive food, clothing and equipment necessary to perform their specific mission. Additionally, in the U.S. Army, the housing for an enlisted soldier is not the same as a General in the Army.

I hope this helps.

 

[SIA]

Hello Protestant 101,

I think that you may be a little confused…For example, Catholic priests do not receive a salary and neither does the Pope and the “mansion” you say, the Pope resides in, is not a “mansion”, it is that Vatican and it does not belong to the Pope; it is not his personal property. The Pope resides in an apartment, within the Vatican … but you probably already knew that.

Peace

I wish I lived in an apartment with as much sheer wealth as surrounds the pope’s. The Vatican makes Fort Knox look broke.

 

[Jimmy_B]

I wish I lived in an apartment with as much sheer wealth as surrounds the pope’s. The Vatican makes Fort Knox look broke.

Hello SIA,

Yah…but I don’t know if you would like the “job”. I few years back, I read Pope John Paul II’s, daily itinerary, I don’t have it in front of me right now, but I do remember that every waking hour, from about 3:00 AM, in the morning, until about 11:00 or 12:00 at night, he was busy, “doing the Lord’s work”.

The Pope doesn’t have a whole lot a free time, just a grueling schedule.

Most Priests and Bishops today, have no free time, to speak of and they too have a non-stop grueling schedule. Remember, most denominations have one or two worship services a week, where the Catholic Church has Mass every day and in some cases, many times a day and this doesn’t include other things that keep them busy, like, marriages, baptisms, funerals, catholic education, counseling, ecumenical and community meetings, visiting the sick, hearing confessions, more meetings, praying, reading, writing and studing and so and so on……

Your comments here minimize the selfless sacrifice of many…A type of sacrifice that most of us are unwilling to make.

I hope this helps.

Peace

 

[Syele]

I wish I lived in an apartment with as much sheer wealth as surrounds the pope’s. The Vatican makes Fort Knox look broke.

I was curious so I did a google search on his apartment. 10 rooms, personal library with 20k books, (My dream apartment already), antique ceilings, original 16th-century marble slab floors with inlay. Sounds beautiful.

The papal apartment wraps around two sides of the Apostolic Palace and is accessed by a doorway that opens onto a historic loggia decorated with frescoes. The layout includes a vestibule, the library, a small studio for the papal secretary and the pope’s private studio, from which he blesses the crowd every Sunday.

The other rooms include the pope’s bedroom, the medical studio, his private chapel, a small living room, a dining room and kitchen.

Stairs to The Popes apartment

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/54/169824943_4ac4944e78.jpg?v=1189800504
vaulted ceiling in the Vatican apartments of Pope Pius V (1504-1572).


Popes Desk in the Private Library.


Pope John Paul II in the private library.

The apartment may not be “owned” by the Pope but I don’t think he has to worry about being evicted either.

That all said, I don’t see anything wrong with allowing the Pope to live in a beautiful apartment. However it is certainly a “perk” of the job (if you don’t want to say a form of payment.) I’m sure the lights and maintenance on such an apartment is not free. Someone pays it, I assume the Church, which is funded by tithes and offerings?

  				Originally Posted by **Jimmy B** 					[forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=3808186#post3808186) 				
  			 *Some ministers and preachers today wear Rolex watches, drive expensive cars and live in multi-million dollar mansions, all paid for with the monies that were given to them, with the intention that it would go to help the needy. *

I pray for true Christian Unity….

Peace

Jimmy B.

Protestant ministers are allowed to “own” things, yes. But it is well known by church members that a portion of money donated to the Church pays salaries of the Pastors and Church secretaries and others who work at the church full time, it not obtained by lying to the congregations. Many Protestant Pastors also have to work another job besides being a Pastor in order to have enough to eat and pay rent/utilities. Others pastor full time… yet their salary is often dependent on tithes that arrive that month. If something goes wrong they may not HAVE a house next month. There aren’t thousands of Protestant minsters running around with Rolexs.

A recent study conducted by The National Association of Church Business Administration points out that the average American pastor with a congregation of 300 people earns a salary of less than $28,000 and that one out of five pastors has to moonlight for supplemental income.

The study also indicated that only 5 percent of American pastors earn more than $50,000 a year, and 14 percent earn less than $25,000.

BTW, people making 50k a year are not living in mansions. the Percentage of US pastor’s making the amounts you describe is probably less than 1 percent. And even then, you are out there with randomly assuming that their congregations were lied to about what money is used for in their church. Most churches publish a full budget so all see where the money goes and how much.

Jimmy praying for Christian unity is awesome. Causing more disunity with wild accusations wont help though.

 

[Protestant101]

Jimmy praying for Christian unity is awesome. Causing more disunity with wild accusations wont help though.

Very well stated. These “apartments” of the Pope, display just what I was talking about. To call it an “apartment” is just not reality. And to then accuse Protestants of this very kind of pomp and ornateness is just plain “disunity” to be sure. (among other things).

 

[Jimmy_B]

I was curious so I did a google search…

In all of your “statistics”, how many of these denominations had over one billion members and how many were almost 2000 years old.

Additionally, what percentage of the priests, deacons and bishops and alike, in these other denominations were unpaid?

Sorry, but you and Protestant 101 are comparing apples against oranges.

I suppose, the next thing you will do is compare the White House to a local YMCA…

Please try again, thank you.

Peace

 

[Syele]

In all of your “statistics”, how many of these denominations had over one billion members and how many were almost 2000 years old.

Additionally, what percentage of the priests, deacons and bishops and alike, in these other denominations were unpaid?

Sorry, but you and Protestant 101 are comparing apples against oranges.

I suppose, the next thing you will do is compare the White House to a local YMCA…

Please try again, thank you.

Peace

umm Jimmy? Did you READ my post?

The info on the Popes apartment I said was there cause I was curious. And I said I didn’t begrudge him his accommodation. So Try **What **again?

I mentioned NO denominations and said nothing about the number of members nor when they were founded… Who’s comparing apples to oranges?

I simply refuted your outrageous claim that Protestant ministers are all going around lying to congregations about their mansions expensive cars and rolexes.