When you know people you love are going to Hell

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Pray for sinners!

Sister Lucia was given a vision of Hell, wherein she saw many souls, and it sparked in her a love for prayer.
 
I agree with this in terms of “normal” people but I am talking of one person who is an active Satanist, another who calls herself a Witch of a Pagan/Wiccan religion and several militant atheists who detest religion and the consept of anything other than what they can see. They also all despise Christianity in particular.

Otherwise I would pray for them and hope for the best but I can’t see a single one of them going anywhere but hell.
Before his encounter with God on the road to Damascus, Saint Paul’s prospects for eternal life probably looked rather slim. Here was a man who imprisoned and tortured Christians, and if he did not directly kill any Christians himself he certainly stood by and condoned the actions of those who did. The “normal” Jew back then who rejected Christianity did not resort to such measures.

By all appearances he was certainly headed straight to hell. Yet he’s a saint. Presumption will come back to bite you in the most unexpected manner.

Maybe the entire reason God chose Saint Paul instead of someone else back then who was already a devoted follower was because a large number of Christians were praying for deliverance from persecution by him and others like him, if not praying outright for his conversion. I’d hate to think I let down anyone I know by not praying for them, even if the chance of them listening to God’s call seems pretty small to me. Better to end up having prayed incessantly for a person who will never turn to God than to not pray for a person who would have been saved if only someone had said a prayer on their behalf.
 
I agree with this in terms of “normal” people but I am talking of one person who is an active Satanist, another who calls herself a Witch of a Pagan/Wiccan religion and several militant atheists who detest religion and the consept of anything other than what they can see. They also all despise Christianity in particular.

Otherwise I would pray for them and hope for the best but I can’t see a single one of them going anywhere but hell.
“Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners …” There’s no loophole in there saying ‘pray for us, but only if wer’re not REAL bad sinners, only if we’re ‘normal’ (whatever the heck that means anyway)’. 🤷

‘Forgive us out trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us …’ nope, no loophole there in the case of ‘abnormal’ people either. Failure to pray for a person - any person - who is a sinner - no matter what their sins - is failure to forgive them for their sins against you. And these people are indeed sinning against you as well. Doesn’t matter whether they’re normal or not, your duty is to forgive them as you hope to be forgiven by God of your sins in your turn.

By the way, despair of God’s salvation is in fact a sin against the first commandment according to the Catechism. Possibly a grave sin therefore. Contrary to the theological virtue of hope.

We are not to despair of salvation either for ourselves or anyone else. No matter what the sin - Jesus said EVERY sin men commit can be forgiven them.
 
I can honestly say I don’t worry about any of my loved ones going to hell. Does that mean I don’t think it’s possible any of them could? No. But how in the world is worrying about it going to help?? I pray for them, I pray even more for myself, who am equally a sinner. I tell God I trust in His divine mercy. I can’t help but think that some of these loved ones who died in less-than-ideal spiritual circumstances were still so very lovable in so many ways that God must find them as redeemable as I do 😃 I continue to hope in God’s infinite mercy.

None of us knows who will go to Hell and who will go to Heaven. Didn’t one of the saints say something about the road to hell being paved with the skulls of priests and bishops? Which tells me that a lot of people who look pious might be in a whole lot more precarious spiritual state than the so-called “sinners” that Jesus chose to spend His time with. None of us knows what goes on in the heart, mind, and soul of another human being. I’m going to leave the Final Judgment in God’s competent hands.
 
I can honestly say I don’t worry about any of my loved ones going to hell. Does that mean I don’t think it’s possible any of them could? No. But how in the world is worrying about it going to help?? I pray for them, I pray even more for myself, who am equally a sinner. I tell God I trust in His divine mercy. I can’t help but think that some of these loved ones who died in less-than-ideal spiritual circumstances were still so very lovable in so many ways that God must find them as redeemable as I do 😃 I continue to hope in God’s infinite mercy.
Surely everyone who goes to Hell has family members who love them.
None of us knows who will go to Hell and who will go to Heaven. Didn’t one of the saints say something about the road to hell being paved with the skulls of priests and bishops?
Actually, that was Dante, and he was referring to known sinners among the clergy who were causing scandal to the faithful.
Which tells me that a lot of people who look pious
They didn’t look at all pious - that was part of the problem. (Cervantes, writing at around the same time, wrote something to the effect that, it’s better to be a hypocrite and at least appear to set a good example to others, even if you can’t live up to it in your private life, rather than be an “honest sinner” and openly drag everyone else into Hell with you.)
might be in a whole lot more precarious spiritual state than the so-called “sinners” that Jesus chose to spend His time with.
The sinners that Jesus spent his time with were repenting of their sins, returning sevenfold whatever they had stolen, quitting their less-than-ethical jobs and leaving hearth and home to travel everywhere with Jesus. They weren’t remaining in their sins, and they certainly weren’t scoffing at Jesus or denying His existence.
None of us knows what goes on in the heart, mind, and soul of another human being. I’m going to leave the Final Judgment in God’s competent hands.
Me, too. 🙂
 
“Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners …” There’s no loophole in there saying ‘pray for us, but only if wer’re not REAL bad sinners, only if we’re ‘normal’ (whatever the heck that means anyway)’. 🤷
By normal I meant the average person, permenantly agnostic and apathetic, as opposed to Satanists and Wiccans. I didn’t think it was that hard to work out…

I understand what everyone is saying. I didn’t mean to irritate as many people as I apparently have, it was just something that was praying on my mind. I’m new to the forum and to the faith so I have alot of questions.

For future reference don’t take offence to any ignorance I show, just help me understand.
 
I understand what everyone is saying. I didn’t mean to irritate as many people as I apparently have, it was just something that was praying on my mind. I’m new to the forum and to the faith so I have alot of questions.

For future reference don’t take offence to any ignorance I show, just help me understand.
I can’t speak for anyone else, but I’m not irritated or offended at all. Just suggesting that you not write off anyone simply because they appear to be an unrepentant sinner at the present time. On the contrary, those are the people who need our prayers the most.
 
I can’t speak for anyone else, but I’m not irritated or offended at all. Just suggesting that you not write off anyone simply because they appear to be an unrepentant sinner at the present time. On the contrary, those are the people who need our prayers the most.
I understand that now, but can you see why it would be an important question to ask for someone new to the faith? Also can you see why I would have conserns for those particular people? They are very close to me and I didn’t know if people were going to say abandon and avoid them or pray for them but now my question is answered. Thanks.
 
By normal I meant the average person, permenantly agnostic and apathetic, as opposed to Satanists and Wiccans. I didn’t think it was that hard to work out…

I understand what everyone is saying. I didn’t mean to irritate as many people as I apparently have, it was just something that was praying on my mind. I’m new to the forum and to the faith so I have alot of questions.

For future reference don’t take offence to any ignorance I show, just help me understand.
Sorry Zamudio, I wasn’t irritated with you. I hope I didn’t come across that way.
 
I can’t speak for anyone else, but I’m not irritated or offended at all. Just suggesting that you not write off anyone simply because they appear to be an unrepentant sinner at the present time. On the contrary, those are the people who need our prayers the most.
Agreed in every particular.

I’d add that the word ‘normal’ is subject to so many different possible meanings that I’d suggest it never be used without some sort of clarification of what you mean by it.
 
Sorry Zamudio, I wasn’t irritated with you. I hope I didn’t come across that way.
No worries 👍
Agreed in every particular.

I’d add that the word ‘normal’ is subject to so many different possible meanings that I’d suggest it never be used without some sort of clarification of what you mean by it.
I understand makes mental note 🙂
 
I understand that now, but can you see why it would be an important question to ask for someone new to the faith? Also can you see why I would have conserns for those particular people? They are very close to me and I didn’t know if people were going to say abandon and avoid them or pray for them but now my question is answered. Thanks.
Oh of course. Being concerned about others and asking about it is a good thing, especially when you’re not sure there’s anything you can do for them. Seeing someone you care about engaging in destructive behavior is painful.

I was that someone to my parents for a long time, but thankfully they never gave up on me no matter how stupid I was 😊
 
Oh of course. Being concerned about others and asking about it is a good thing, especially when you’re not sure there’s anything you can do for them. Seeing someone you care about engaging in destructive behavior is painful.

I was that someone to my parents for a long time, but thankfully they never gave up on me no matter how stupid I was 😊
I appreciate your support 🙂

I am glad your parents got through to you in the end. Try and imagine this though? You are the one trying to bring forth reason, your mother is a “Witch” of a Wiccan/Pagan religion, your father is an atheist, your sister is a Satanist, all three and a host of your friends revile Christianity in all forms. Live with that for 18 years and hopefully someone with a stronger will could get further than I have.
 
“Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners …” There’s no loophole in there saying ‘pray for us, but only if wer’re not REAL bad sinners, only if we’re ‘normal’ (whatever the heck that means anyway)’. 🤷

‘Forgive us out trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us …’ nope, no loophole there in the case of ‘abnormal’ people either. Failure to pray for a person - any person - who is a sinner - no matter what their sins - is failure to forgive them for their sins against you. And these people are indeed sinning against you as well. Doesn’t matter whether they’re normal or not, your duty is to forgive them as you hope to be forgiven by God of your sins in your turn.

We are not to despair of salvation either for ourselves or anyone else. No matter what the sin - Jesus said EVERY sin men commit can be forgiven them.
If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. (1 John. 5:16,17)

1 John 5:16-17

‘Saint John did not absolutely forbid that prayer should be made for those who “sin unto death,” since he knew that Moses, Jeremiah, and Stephen had so prayed, and he himself implies that forgiveness is not to be denied them. Such intercessors, then, must be sought for after very grievous sins, for if any ordinary persons pray they are not heard. . . Stephen prayed for his persecutors, who had not been able even to listen to the Name of Christ, when he said of those very men by whom he was being stoned: “Lord, lay not this sin to their charge.” And we see the result of this prayer in the case of the Apostle, for Paul, who kept the garments of those who were stoning Stephen, not long after became an apostle by the grace of God, having before been a persecutor.’

St. Ambrose of Milan, ‘On Repentance’

‘Shall we all be saved? Shall we go to Heaven? Alas, my children, we do not know at all! But I tremble when I see so many souls lost these days. See, they fall into Hell as leaves fall from the trees at the approach of winter.’

‘The number of saved is as few as the number of grapes left after the vineyard pickers have passed.’

St. Jean Marie Baptiste Vianney, the Cure of Ars

'My children, we are going to speak of hope: this is what makes the happiness of man on earth. Some people of this world hope too much, and others do not hope enough. Some say, “I am going to commit this sin again. It will not cost me more to confess four than three.” It is like a child saying to his father, “I am going to give you four blows; it will cost me no more than to give you one: I shall only have to ask your pardon.”

That is the way men behave towards the good God.

They say, “This year I shall amuse myself again; I shall go to dances and to the alehouse, and next year I will be converted. The good God will be sure to receive me, when I choose to return to Him.” . . . Do you think that He will adapt Himself to everything in your will? Do you think He will embrace you after you have despised Him all your life? Oh, no, indeed! There is a certain measure of grace and of sin after which God withdraws Himself. . . God would not be just if He made no difference between those who serve Him and those who offend Him. My children, there is so little faith now in the world, that people either hope too much, or they despair. Some say, “I have done too much evil; the good God cannot pardon me.” My children, this is a great blasphemy; it is putting a limit on the mercy of God, which has no limit – it is infinite. You may have done enough to lose the souls of a whole parish, and if you confess, if you are sorry for having done this evil, and resolve not to do it again, the good God will have pardoned you.’

St. Jean Marie Baptiste Vianney, the Cure of Ars
 
I don’t think that is quite the quote. I believe it is something like, “the path to eternal life is narrow and few find it.”

“few find it”, but possibly many are led.
Perhaps I am being overly optimistic.
Quoting Peter Kreeft (on “Hell”):
Jesus says the way to hell is broad and many find it and that the way to heaven is narrow and few find it. And he means it: you don’t get to heaven simply by being born, by being nice, or by oozing into an eternal growth experience. But “few” here does not mean that less than half of mankind will be saved. For God speaks as our Father, not our statistician. Even one child lost is too many, and the rest saved are too few. The good shepherd who left his ninety-nine sheep safe at home to rescue his one lost sheep found even 99 percent salvation too “few”.
 
Quoting Peter Kreeft (on “Hell”):
Deductive logic is sometimes useful when applied with tradition, it is not when applied with human wisdom. 😃

‘The majority of men shall not see God.’

St. Justin, Father of the Church, Martyr

‘Not all, nor even a majority, are saved. . . They are indeed many, if regarded by themselves, but they are few in comparison with the far larger number of those who shall be punished with the devil.’

‘The Lord called the world a “field” and all the faithful who draw near to him “wheat.” All through the field, and around the threshing-floor, there is both wheat and chaff. But the greater part is chaff; the lesser part is wheat, for which is prepared a barn not a fire. . . The good also are many, but in comparison with the wicked the good are few. Many are the grains of wheat, but compared with the chaff, the grains are few.’

‘If you wish to imitate the multitude, you shall then not be among the few who shall enter in by the narrow way.’

St. Augustine, Bishop, Father, Great Doctor of the Church

Christ’s flock is called “little” (Luke 12:32) in comparison with the greater number of the reprobates.

St. Bede the Venerable, Doctor of the Church

‘A multitude of souls fall into the depths of Hell, and it is of the faith that all who die in mortal sin are condemned for ever and ever.’

St. Anthony Mary Claret, Archbishop

‘So vast a number of miserable souls perish, and so comparitively few are saved.’

St. Philip Neri

‘Everyone desires to be saved but the greater part is lost.’

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori, Bishop, Doctor of the Church

How many among these uncivilized peoples do not yet know God, and are sunk in the darkest idolatry, superstition and ignorance! . . . Poor souls! These are they in whom Christ saw, in all the horror of His imminent Passion, the uselessness of His agony for so many souls!

St. Francis Xavier Cabrini

‘They will relinquish all amity with the world, so that they may keep that longing continually in their hearts, preferring nothing to it. But few indeed there are who add to a good beginning an equivalent end and who endure without stumbling until they reach it. Many are moved to repentance and many become partakers of heavenly grace and are wounded by divine love; but, unable to bear the ensuing tribulations and the wily and versatile assaults of the devil, they submit to the world and are submerged in its depths through the flabbiness and debility of their will, or are taken captive by some attachment to worldly things. Those who wish to pursue the way with assurance to the end will not permit any other longing or love to intermingle with their divine love.’

‘Those who reach the goal without falling do so through hating themselves and all worldly desires, distractions, pleasures and pre*occupations, for this is what ‘denying oneself’ amounts to. Hence everyone expels himself from the kingdom by his own choice, through not embracing suffering and denying himself for the sake of the truth, but wanting to enjoy something of this world in addition to that divine longing, and not surrendering the whole inclination of his will to God. This may be understood from a single example. On examining himself a man realizes that what he is so eager to do is wicked. At first he feels doubt about it in his heart. Next, the measure and balance in his conscience make it clear inwardly whether the bias inclines to love for God or love for the world; and after that he proceeds to outward action.’

‘Example makes it clear that man is destroyed by his own free choice: for out of love for some worldly thing he throws himself into fire, is drowned in the sea and gives himself into captivity. Let us suppose that someone’s house or field has caught fire. The person who wanted to save himself fled without anything as soon as he noticed the fire, leaving everything in it and concerned only with his own life. But someone else thought he would take some of the goods with him, so he stayed behind to collect them; and as he was taking them the fire, which had already overwhelmed the house, caught him as well and burnt him. In this way, through his attachment to some transient thing, he was destroyed in the fire by his own free choice. Again, two men were shipwrecked. One of them, wanting to save himself, stripped off his clothes and threw himself into the water; and in this way he was able to save his life. The other, wanting to save his clothes as well, was drowned, destroying himself for the sake of a slight gain. Or again, let us suppose that news of an attack by an enemy was announced. One man, as soon as he heard the news, fled as fast as his feet would carry him, without a thought for his possessions. Another, either because he distrusted the news, or because he wanted to take with him some of his goods, waited until later, and when the enemy arrived he was caught. Thus, through his lack of alertness and his attachment to worldly things, he lost body and soul by his own free choice.’

St. Symeon Metaphrastis
 
I appreciate your support 🙂

I am glad your parents got through to you in the end. Try and imagine this though? You are the one trying to bring forth reason, your mother is a “Witch” of a Wiccan/Pagan religion, your father is an atheist, your sister is a Satanist, all three and a host of your friends revile Christianity in all forms. Live with that for 18 years and hopefully someone with a stronger will could get further than I have.
My brother and I were both raised catholic, and both of us turned our back on our faith in our mid 20’s. That was 15 years ago. I finally came back last year. He’s recently divorced, does not go to church, has not sought an annulment, believes some rather odd New Age things, is far too concerned with money and worldly things, and although not overtly hostile to Christianity has no interest at all in living the faith he was taught. Still, I won’t stop praying for him or loving him no matter what. He’s my brother.

Not nearly as bad as your situation, I know. But the strength of our will is unfortunately irrelevant in the matter. God has given all of us free will so that we can choose to love him (love can’t be coerced), which also leaves us free to reject him. Despite the pain it causes him, God allows us to choose rejection rather than make us mindless robots incapable of love. While we can hold out hope and must always pray for those who refuse to hear God’s call or heard it at one time but have now rejected it, we must also sadly accept that whatever fate they receive was chosen freely.

All I can say is that when it comes to anyone I know, if they do choose that fate it will be because they freely rejected God no matter how much he tried to offer them his grace and not because I didn’t do my part by praying on their behalf. We owe it to God to never give up on anyone, no matter how bleak things may appear at the moment. Too many good people have come to or come back to the faith after a long time of sinful living. If you’re not familiar with it, I highly recommend listening to Father Corapi’s conversion story. It’s a powerful testimony to the effectiveness of prayer no matter how steeped in evil someone may be. He was “in the darkness” for 20 years yet still came home.
 
My brother and I were both raised catholic, and both of us turned our back on our faith in our mid 20’s. That was 15 years ago. I finally came back last year. He’s recently divorced, does not go to church, has not sought an annulment, believes some rather odd New Age things, is far too concerned with money and worldly things, and although not overtly hostile to Christianity has no interest at all in living the faith he was taught. Still, I won’t stop praying for him or loving him no matter what. He’s my brother.

Not nearly as bad as your situation, I know. But the strength of our will is unfortunately irrelevant in the matter. God has given all of us free will so that we can choose to love him (love can’t be coerced), which also leaves us free to reject him. Despite the pain it causes him, God allows us to choose rejection rather than make us mindless robots incapable of love. While we can hold out hope and must always pray for those who refuse to hear God’s call or heard it at one time but have now rejected it, we must also sadly accept that whatever fate they receive was chosen freely.

All I can say is that when it comes to anyone I know, if they do choose that fate it will be because they freely rejected God no matter how much he tried to offer them his grace and not because I didn’t do my part by praying on their behalf. We owe it to God to never give up on anyone, no matter how bleak things may appear at the moment. Too many good people have come to or come back to the faith after a long time of sinful living. If you’re not familiar with it, I highly recommend listening to Father Corapi’s conversion story. It’s a powerful testimony to the effectiveness of prayer no matter how steeped in evil someone may be. He was “in the darkness” for 20 years yet still came home.
I don’t know that the Church requires anyone to seek a declaration of nullity as a matter of course.

Your post is an excellent reminder of the Church’s teaching on love and free will.

I’m always troubled by threads like this. I get the impression from some posts (not yours) that: “Hell is so terrible nobody could freely accept it” implying that everyone has a last second reprieve at which time they have an instantaneous change of heart accompanied by instant perfect contrition after years of habitual mortal sin.

Is a deathbed change of heart possible, sure. Is it universal, or even probable? IMHO that’s not very likely. Perhaps I’ve seen too many lung cancer patients smoking in the parking lot at the oncologists office. 😦

We don’t know who’s in Hell, but we do know that those that are chose it of their own free will.
 
How do you feel? What do you do?

I know that several people very close to me will go to Hell and I’m not sure how I should feel or react.

Anybody else faced this situation?
We never know who is destined for heaven or hell. People chose their own fates - salvation or damnation. We cannot force others to make the right choice. They have free will, and will chose the disposition of their own souls.

I am tormented by many of the same fears and doubts that you have, Zamudio. Indeed, I have the same dilemma, in my own family. Half of my immediate family has abandoned the True Catholic Faith. My wife is an agnostic, and my daughter is a member of the apostate.

What would happen tonight to my family, if our house burned down, and everyone died? Or what if there was a shooting spree at our school? How would God dispense with my family’s souls? More to the point, how would the Lord dispense with my own soul?

I have done such a poor job, as a Catholic parent and head of household. I have much that I have to account for, when I stand in judgment before the Lord.

I would go crazy thinking about this, if it were not for prayer. I pray the Holy Rosary every day, for the safety and salvation of my family, body and soul. This effort may takes years, but I will not stop trying.

I think that is the only thing that keeps me sane - and gives me any hope. This is the only recommendation I can give you, Zamudio - pray a Rosary every day, for those reprobates that you love and care for. Perhaps, through the intercession of the Holy Spirit, they will be returned to a state of grace.
 
Yes.
  1. Maybe, since Hell is the default destination of humanity, and the vast majority of people are going there, it’s not as bad as we’ve been led to believe. (This is extremely unlikely.)
    .
I believe the odds to be somewhere around 1 in 5000. That’s the ratio of the saved to the damned, if you believe. St. Leonard of Port Maurice, and St. Vincent Ferrer. See St. Leonard’s famous sermon on this subject here:

olrl.org/snt_docs/fewness.shtml

In one of St. Vincent Ferrer’s revelations, 5 people out of 33,000 we saved in one hour. That is disturbing and frightening, when you contemplate it.
 
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