When you run out of money

[bitterhope]

Hi Bitterhope - I always appreciate your responses. Thank you!

Agreed. I love all my kids. I am blessed to have them. But there are those passages in the Catechism and in other documents about responsibly planning your family size that cause me anxiety. I want to be as good a parent as I can.

True. I think the year they spent at the school will remain with them for a long time. I am glad they had that. We will continue educating our kids as best we can in the faith even though they go to a public school.

150 thousand a year? That is pretty good! Or did you mean 15 thousand?

But I agree. It is about accepting what God gives us rather than imposing our expectations on him. For example, baby 7 is not due until September. And yet I felt it was important to get the 15 passenger van now. Perhaps I should have waited on God to provide. And sometimes I feel like we pass up providential moments because of our preconceived notions about what we need at the moment.

Anyway, thanks again for posting. I appreciate it greatly.

God bless,
Ut

Anxiety is the greatest evil that can befall a soul, except sin. God commands you to pray, but He forbids you to worry

~St. Francis de Sales

aspe.hhs.gov/poverty-guidelines

An income of $150 thousand would be very nice! No, it’s actually well under $50,000. The poverty line for our family size in the US is $53,860. We make approx $15 thousand a year less than that. We do not accept government aid and we have never gotten help from our families. We have had assistance from a former parish during a very difficult spell. I do believe that it is one of God’s ways to provide materially and also to provide spiritually. It humbles us and helps overcome pride. It was a very short term thing that helped me see that God does indeed send us a Simon of Cyrene to help carry our cross when the weight is too heavy to bear. Sometimes we miss Simon and his offers to help because of either pride (we can do it alone, etc) or greed (we deserve better than what is offered, etc) or despair (it’s not enough to help!). Sometimes we turn him away or we may become dependent.

The catechism speaks of responsibility in limiting family size? I always thought responsible parenting was more being sure you provide an education, especially in the faith, to however many children you have. Our responsibility is to live, care for, and raise up good Christians. Our children are on loan to us from God. The really belong to Him. He expects us to do our best to return them to Him at the end of their earthly lives. I have had many priests tell me over the years that as parents we are to set the example of God for our children. That is what the Church teaches as responsible parenthood. Many families with just one child end up with irresponsible parenting. There isn’t a set number that shows responsible versus irresponsible. If you do your best and pray for guidance, you are doing better than many parents. None of us are perfect. We all make mistakes, stumbles and falls. The Way of the Cross is one of the best examples of God showing us how to make it through the struggles. Simon of Cyrene was there, and Jesus fell. He got back up and kept on going. That’s what we are called to do.

I think it is good that you got your van now. I don’t recommend waiting until baby comes. It makes the transition easier and setting car seats up without rushing through things. God provided the opportunity and you took it. He provided the means, even if it’s not as easy as we would care for it to be. Don’t listen to others that criticize your way of providing for the gifts God has given you. I know what people say and how they react. They are the ones going against what the Church says about responsible parenting though. The decision lies with you and your wife without consideration of outside voices. It will work out and your family will be stronger because of these struggles.

 

[TX_Catholic_1]

In order to address immediate needs, consider the following options:

1. Reach out to Catholic Charities, or similar organizations, if you are in need of food, clothing, transportation, and/or help paying for housing.
2. Seek government assistance (unemployment, food stamps, etc.). Remember, you paid for this assistance with your tax money and I wouldn’t feel bad at all about this.

As multiple posters have already mentioned, income and expenses are two parts of this equation. In order to increase income, consider the following:

1. Get a side hustle (drive for Uber or Lift, sell stuff you don’t need, work for a dog walking service, etc.).
2. If your wife and/or older kids aren’t working, they can help by getting jobs, even if it’s helping sell stuff you don’t need (check out the OfferUp app and many similar apps, Craigslist).

In order to cut expenses:

1. Get rid of cable TV, gym memberships you don’t or hardly use, expensive cell phone plans.
2. Downsize your home. Can you stand to move to a smaller and less expensive home? You could pocket the difference when you sell your larger, more expensive home.
3. If you have a car payment and aren’t under water on the car, sell it, buy something with cash, and keep the difference.

Both earning more and cutting expenses are part of the equation. Also, I would educate yourself and your kids on personal finance topics. There are plenty of great blogs (Afford Anything, Mad Fientist, ESI Money), podcasts (Afford Anything, Mad Fientist, Financial Rockstar), and books (Millionaire Next Door, Dave Ramsey’s stuff) to learn from. I’m a big proponent of being a good steward of personal finances, as they’re a gift.

Finally, it’s great that you’re continuing to invest for retirement!

 

[YADA]

As someone who has been in the OPs position, I want to thank you for your post. May God bless you and your family.

Dave Ramsey may be a good option for many people but he can’t help those of us with very low incomes. When every dollar already is assigned to a necessity all anyone can do is find a way to increase income.

…

Your post makes some good points - but on this you are wrong … Dave Ramsey can help those with very low incomes! In fact those with lower incomes are the ones who need to budget and tell every dollar “Where to go and not ask where they went” the most! …

Those whose income routinely exceeds * their spending - both necessity and extra have little need to “budget”

Those of us whose income falls short have every reason to carefully discern each and every purchase …

I have made nearly every mistake Dave Ramsey discusses - I have not ever gone bankrupt - praise be to God! … and though I make good money right now - I am house poor … and for various reasons - will remain such … but I am counting each and every penny. I think three times over just about every purchase … I know the variety of rice and beans and beans and rice … [just finished my third day in a row of a Bean Dinner] …

Every Dollar is a free budgeting tool … check it out at Dave Ramsey web site.

Yes to the cheaper car … if you cant afford your home and could sell it and downsize then I would say yes … but think carefully about this - housing markets are tricky …

No to every program you can put a kid in …

Budget and give up cable * … I have to have internet at home for my work as I work from home once a week and occasionally like inclement weather - our recent snow storm - better than being off work . But I do not need 100 channels and nothing on…

I do not eat out often … and I shop basics for groceries … no fancy expensive stuff.

You can do this … get your financial house under control and it will make your life so much better**

 

[YADA]

…True. I think the year they spent at the school will remain with them for a long time. I am glad they had that. We will continue educating our kids as best we can in the faith even though they go to a public school…
Anyway, thanks again for posting. I appreciate it greatly.

God bless,
Ut

Have you looked into scholarships at the Catholic School?

Thanks be to God that parishioners years ago created an endowment fund that supports our parish school to keep tuition lower and offers scholarships to parish families … my grandkids are only able to attend the parish school due that foresight - May God richly bless them

We support school fundraisers and I know my daughter and SIL work many hours …

 

[Paganus]

Paganus,

Hi Xantippe!

1. We can’t just will our children to be exemplary Catholics. Whether or not they wind up practicing their faith as adults is going to depend a lot on whether or not we present an attractive vision of the Catholic life.

An adventure is merely an inconvenience rightly considered. I think every child wants to rebel. How better to rebel against the entire world than to proudly declare: Serviam!

1. Unless you have a very unusual living situation, you wouldn’t even be able to take your Catholic children to Mass in the US without paying at least a little attention to your family’s transportation needs. (Our family could walk, but we have an unusual situation for the US.)

Creativity: Before we had the Catholic Bus, we would split up into two groups and alternate Saturday Confession/5 pm Mass and Sunday Mass.

Vehicle costs do seem to be a substantial problem for people with moderate incomes and larger-than-minivan-size families as their families grow. I strongly doubt that the OP bought a Mercedes van or anything in that ballpark. I see very few of those on the road as family vehicles and in general very few high-end large vans.

I am sure that local conditions vary tremendously. God was with me on that van purchase, I am certain of it.

1. Having a paid-off house as a new retiree is a lot better than not having a paid-off house…

I am sure that are right. Hopefully, I will never have to completely retire. It would be nice to serve breakfast at McDonald’s or something, if only to smile and talk with people.

1. Pensions are every bit as much gambling as a 401(k). .

That may be true. I have not heard any of my pensioner friends complaining about money though.

1. Having lived in an area of the world that had recently suffered hyper-inflation (post-Soviet Russia in the 1995-7), I have some thoughts on hyper-inflation…

That must have been an exciting experience! Did you drive a Volga?

(A friend at the time told the story of how he went to sea as a sailor with enough money to buy a car in his savings account–when he came back, his savings had turned into just enough to buy a sofa throw.) First of all, inflation is primarily dangerous to people who have fixed incomes (like pensioners) and cash savings (like old school pensioners). People who are currently working and have non-cash assets do a lot better during inflationary conditions or after inflation…

That’s true.

1. I suggest that nobody ought to expect more financial and other help from their own children than they themselves provide to their own elderly parents.

Perhaps. But my parents were the first generation without their grandparents in the house, so they are the strange exception to the rule. Life would be easier if they would just move in. Children learn a lot from their grandparents.

Also, bear in mind that (if we all pursue your plan) our own children may have very moderate incomes and large families of their own, so they are unlikely to be well-positioned to provide substantial material or practical help to us, their elderly parents.

That’s very true. I keep reminding them that only one of them needs to become rich so that they can support their parents in the lifestyle to which they would like to become accustomed, but life is full of uncertainly. However, if they can keep the government from euthanizing me, that may be enough.

1. I have a lot of concerns about homeschooling that involves “minimal effort.”

Do you? I can assure you that anything our children would receive in their local public school would be delivered with minimal effort. Their last year in school the teacher broke down and cried during the parent-teacher orientation. She had taken a cut in salary, lost all of her part-time assistants, was expected to provide all the classroom supplies out of her own pocket and was going to have to each almost three dozen elementary school children, half of whom could speak no English. Even if she did her job well, the schoolbooks were full of nonsense and immorality. The icon for Black History Month was Oprah. Oprah! If they sat at home and watched EWTN all day they would be better prepared for life than sitting in that overcrowded room asking permission to use the restroom. I made them read Thomas Sowell.

Of course, I’m just making a point. We take their education seriously. But I do believe that public education - at least locally - is very harmful, not helpful. We know many homeschoolers who sent their kids to public high school and the results were… unsatisfying.

Also, what happens with homeschooling if mom has any serious health setbacks and the public schools are unacceptable?

Actually, there are a number of options depending on the age range and needs of your children as well as your state regulations concerning homeschooling. I know people who have: a. homeschooled in the evenings after their child attended the unsatisfactory public school during the day, b. purchased homeschooling software and a laptop and let their child work with that, c. paid for private tutors (lots of different arrangements here), d. permitted another homeschooling parent to homeschool their child.

 

[Paganus]

Xantippe and Paganus, I appreciate your responses. I want to be more like you Paganus, but a lot of the issues that Xantippe raises seem pretty valid to me. There must be a way of being responsible as a parent and yet trusting that God will provide for our needs in such a way that does not force us to compromise our faith…

God bless,
Ut

Don’t become like Paganus - become a saint!

Pray, hope - and don’t worry.

 

[Xantippe]

An adventure is merely an inconvenience rightly considered. I think every child wants to rebel. How better to rebel against the entire world than to proudly declare: Serviam!

[snip]

That must have been an exciting experience! Did you drive a Volga?

1. “I think every child wants to rebel. How better to rebel against the entire world than to proudly declare: Serviam!”

I had unconventional parents, and from the vantage point of now being in middle age and with three children, I think that a number of areas where they chose to “rebel against the entire world” were unwise and/or unkind. For example, my parents did not have any medical insurance for us children when I was a kid. Combined with low (but not Medicaid type) income, at times that meant medical and dental neglect. (I once fell off a horse and didn’t walk for three days and didn’t see a doctor.)

They also did stuff like just not getting a Christmas tree except maybe one or two years and not bothering to do birthdays for kids (but letting grandma and grandpa pick up the slack).

Now that I’ve been a parent for a long time, I do not have much respect for those choices. Mindless rejection of social norms is problematic. (See, for example the New Testament epistles–the authors were very insistent on Christians obeying local social norms when they weren’t actually sinful.)

1. Did I drive a Volga? No–I was a Peace Corps volunteer and we were not allowed to drive during service.

Interestingly, this was the Russian Far East, so Japanese cars were very common. They were bought used and imported mostly one by one by Russian sailors (it was an employment perk), so they had right-hand drive in a country that drives on the right side. That part was exciting! The Russian government at some point tried to ban those, much to the outrage of locals.

sputniknews.com/analysis/20121003176382673/

 

[bitterhope]

1. “I think every child wants to rebel. How better to rebel against the entire world than to proudly declare: Serviam!”

I had unconventional parents, and from the vantage point of now being in middle age and with three children, I think that a number of areas where they chose to “rebel against the entire world” were unwise and/or unkind. For example, my parents did not have any medical insurance for us children when I was a kid. Combined with low (but not Medicaid type) income, at times that meant medical and dental neglect. (I once fell off a horse and didn’t walk for three days and didn’t see a doctor.)

They also did stuff like just not getting a Christmas tree except maybe one or two years and not bothering to do birthdays for kids (but letting grandma and grandpa pick up the slack).

Now that I’ve been a parent for a long time, I do not have much respect for those choices. Mindless rejection of social norms is problematic. (See, for example the New Testament epistles–the authors were very insistent on Christians obeying local social norms when they weren’t actually sinful.)

1. Did I drive a Volga? No–I was a Peace Corps volunteer and we were not allowed to drive during service.

Interestingly, this was the Russian Far East, so Japanese cars were very common. They were bought used and imported mostly one by one by Russian sailors (it was an employment perk), so they had right-hand drive in a country that drives on the right side. That part was exciting! The Russian government at some point tried to ban those, much to the outrage of locals.

sputniknews.com/analysis/20121003176382673/

By any chance were your parents JW? The reason I’m asking is I grew up in an area where thee were a lot of JWs and this sounds similar to the way they parented. They never did birthdays, Christmas, Easter, any holidays actually. They didn’t say the pledge at school. Many didn’t associate with non-JWs unless it was completely necessary. Some women only wore skirts and the men button down shirts. Most didn’t have steady employment (lots of work for hire stuff) and most didn’t seek medical care for fear of blood transfusions or other medical procedures that they opposed to.

The area I grew up in was also full of the very poor. Most of us were on free lunch, we didn’t have the money to buy shoes, often had baked potatoes and nothing else for days on end. Several kids lived in converted decommissioned school buses with no electricity or plumbing. None of us (besides the JWs) didn’t celebrate Christmas or have something special for our birthday. Most didn’t have insurance, but we never were denied medical care by our families or the doctors.

My family owned a real house so we felt rich. We weren’t. I see that now. But there was absolutely no way we would ever not celebrate holidays somehow. We might not have gotten much beyond handmade cards and scarves at times, but it was special and we loved it. Please try to understand why it really doesn’t sit well with many of us when you try to place the blame for your upbringing onto your parents tax bracket. That isn’t what it was about. I understand that it wasn’t the ideal way to grow up for you and I agree with that assessment. My suspicions are that even in the best of financial circumstances your parents would have parented you quite similarly. I’ve seen middle class and sometimes well off families with the same dynamics as you describe. Money doesn’t fix that, just as lack of money doesn’t cause it.

What happened when your mom got cancer? How did medical care suddenly become available for her? I’m not asking because I want to know the answer or because I want to hurt you/argue with you/change your view. I just want you to understand that comparing good Catholic families who are successfully raising their children on limited funds with that type of neglect isn’t right.

I’m very happy that you are providing a much better life for your children than you had as a child. I truly believe that if you were very poor you would still find the way to be a good mother to them. You should be very proud of the improvements you have made for yourself and for your children. That is a wonderful accomplishment. One that unfortunately many people raised as you were are not strong enough to achieve. Try to understand that for most of us that are not so well off financially, our children are our treasures. We don’t abuse or neglect them. They are what we live for. Everything we do is for them. All we have is for them. I’m sure that is exactly how it is for you as well. Somethings money really doesn’t change.

 

[Book_Worm]

Paganus,

1. We can’t just will our children to be exemplary Catholics. Whether or not they wind up practicing their faith as adults is going to depend a lot on whether or not we present an attractive vision of the Catholic life.
2. Unless you have a very unusual living situation, you wouldn’t even be able to take your Catholic children to Mass in the US without paying at least a little attention to your family’s transportation needs. (Our family could walk, but we have an unusual situation for the US.)

Vehicle costs do seem to be a substantial problem for people with moderate incomes and larger-than-minivan-size families as their families grow. I strongly doubt that the OP bought a Mercedes van or anything in that ballpark. I see very few of those on the road as family vehicles and in general very few high-end large vans.

1. Having a paid-off house as a new retiree is a lot better than not having a paid-off house.
2. Pensions are every bit as much gambling as a 401(k).

money.usnews.com/money/blogs/planning-to-retire/2010/08/23/the-10-biggest-failed-pension-plans

At least there’s a bit more transparency and control with a 401(k). The primary problem with 401(k)s is not that 401(k)s are risky, but that (for reasons good and bad) people don’t put enough money in them and then frequently pull money out. People just are not saving enough for the number of years of retirement they anticipate:

“If you expect to spend 40 years of your life working, and then another 20 or 30 years living off the money you made during that time, then you need to save a large portion of your salary.”

bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-01-03/the-401-k-problem-we-refuse-to-solve

Also, the Social Security system is essentially a pension system–which illustrates the basic structural problem with a pension system.

1. Having lived in an area of the world that had recently suffered hyper-inflation (post-Soviet Russia in the 1995-7), I have some thoughts on hyper-inflation. (A friend at the time told the story of how he went to sea as a sailor with enough money to buy a car in his savings account–when he came back, his savings had turned into just enough to buy a sofa throw.) First of all, inflation is primarily dangerous to people who have fixed incomes (like pensioners) and cash savings (like old school pensioners). People who are currently working and have non-cash assets do a lot better during inflationary conditions or after inflation.
2. I suggest that nobody ought to expect more financial and other help from their own children than they themselves provide to their own elderly parents.

Also, bear in mind that (if we all pursue your plan) our own children may have very moderate incomes and large families of their own, so they are unlikely to be well-positioned to provide substantial material or practical help to us, their elderly parents.

1. I have a lot of concerns about homeschooling that involves “minimal effort.”

Also, what happens with homeschooling if mom has any serious health setbacks and the public schools are unacceptable?

I have to agree with everything you’ve said.

I had two cousins with whom I was very close growing up. One of them and I had one child, both of whom are devoted to the Church and live as good Catholics. The third had seven children, was very active in the Church and not one of the seven is a practicing Catholic.

Any decent financial planner could have told the employees of Enron that they were taking a huge risk by putting their income, pension, and 401K funds in one basket. I cannot imagine living my golden years as a burden to my child, limiting her options (and those of her DH and children).

 

[utunumsint]

I have to agree with everything you’ve said.

I had two cousins with whom I was very close growing up. One of them and I had one child, both of whom are devoted to the Church and live as good Catholics. The third had seven children, was very active in the Church and not one of the seven is a practicing Catholic.

Any decent financial planner could have told the employees of Enron that they were taking a huge risk by putting their income, pension, and 401K funds in one basket. I cannot imagine living my golden years as a burden to my child, limiting her options (and those of her DH and children).

I know large families where all the children retained their faith and are wonderful contributing members of society and I know others where things are not so great. Anecdotal evidence does not = causation.

About this idea of not wanting to be a burden… sometimes life works out in such a way that we become burdens whether we like it or not. It is a good thing not to intentionally set out to be a burden, but if it turns out that way despite everything you have done to prevent it, then I hope I have kids who are kind enough to offer their help and I am humble enough to ask or accept it.

God bless,
Ut

 

[Xantippe]

I know large families where all the children retained their faith and are wonderful contributing members of society and I know others where things are not so great. Anecdotal evidence does not = causation.

About this idea of not wanting to be a burden… sometimes life works out in such a way that we become burdens whether we like it or not.** It is a good thing not to intentionally set out to be a burden, but if it turns out that way despite everything you have done to prevent it, then I hope I have kids who are kind enough to offer their help and I am humble enough to ask or accept it. **

God bless,
Ut

Right.

As Proverbs 13 says, “A good man leaves an inheritance to his children’s children.”

 

[Paganus]

Right.

As Proverbs 13 says, “A good man leaves an inheritance to his children’s children.”

An inheritance like… the Faith?

With the Catholic faith, you can never be truly poor.
Without the faith, you can never be truly rich.

 

[Xantippe]

bitterhope,

Nah, not JW, just really quirky. My parents weren’t against birthdays or Christmas, they just usually didn’t bother. (The Christmas tree thing is especially aggravating, because as it happens, the farm had hundreds of Christmas-tree sized trees no more than a brisk 5-minute walk away.) We had grandparents in the area who usually took care of Christmas and birthdays–I now realize that my grandparents picked up a lot of slack. And if they didn’t pick up the slack (for instance, if they were out of town), a lot of times, stuff just didn’t happen. My sis has a Christmas season birthday, and I don’t have the heart to ask how often she ever got a birthday, because I think the answer is probably pretty sad. (How hard is it to bake and frost a cake anyway? Lawdamercy!) There was generally a failure to make an effort to create nuclear family traditions.

As I’ve gotten more life experience and experience as a parent, I’ve realized how weird all of that is. I can see, just from looking around, that even really poor people manage to do SOMETHING for their kids for birthdays and Christmas. (Interestingly, my mom is very regular in sending birthday and Christmas checks for the kids now.) It was not all about tax bracket–but there was definitely synergy between my parents’ peculiarities and low income. The quirks kept income down and the low income in turn fueled and justified quirky behavior. I’ve PMed with a number of people on CAF who grew up in analogous situations and I’ve seen a lot of stories online that remind me of my family. This book also reminds me a lot of some of my parents’ choices (minus the alcoholism, mental illness, nomadism, but plus good grandparents and a pretty solid extended family and regular church attendance):

barnesandnoble.com/w/glass-castle-jeannette-walls/1100321217

(My mom painted, too–kind of an eerie coincidence.)

My dad also had a very spotty history of employment with a preference for self-employment or gigs–never a real full-time year-round job (but he always put in a lot of hours and would work several jobs). I now realize that he could have easily walked into a full-time teaching job with benefits with his credentials in our rural area, but that wasn’t his cup of tea, so no health insurance…ever. My parents did eventually start a successful business, but that was around the time I left home.

(But, looking on the bright side, my dad was always very education-minded, especially for me. My parents were unusually good in some ways (especially for our town), and unusually bad in other areas–much like the parents in The Glass Castle.)

As to whether they would have done better as parents had they been better off–it’s a hard-to-answer question. My mom’s parenting did seem to deteriorate when we moved out to the country with a new baby brother and a house to finish. On the other hand, it’s also true that her hoarding tendencies spiraled out of control during some of their more prosperous years. You’re going to really hate me saying this, but my mom is the sort of person who should always have cleaning help (without regular intervention, their fridge will always be stuffed full of rotting food). But fortunately the hoarding took a while to get going, so I didn’t have to deal much with it as a kid. Also, they kind of stopped parenting once they were down to the last kid at home–they were very absorbed by their business. I think my mom was probably at her best as a low-income mother of two children when we lived in town.

I don’t know exactly how my parents ran their finances, but my mom (thank goodness) did seem to have regular medical care (much more so than us kids). Providentially, it happened that the year she had cancer, my parents sold timber from their land, so the medical costs were either all covered or almost covered. I think that was the only major medical expense of my childhood years. But there were a lot of sick visits for us kids that should have happened that did not happen. The thing was, my parents were actually sitting on some fairly valuable land, so in a big financial crisis, they could tap that (and I suspect that was probably my dad’s theory on the subject)–but a lot of routine care did not happen because they were cash poor. He’s gotten more financially conservative since then, but at the time, my dad tended to fly by the seat of his pants.

I hope I would provide a good life to my kids if I were poor and/or had a larger family–but I would not bet the farm on that. It is true that I would definitely make medical and dental care more of a priority, but as they say, “there but for the grace of God go I.”

My parents’ methods did basically work. All three of their children are college educated, reasonably happily married, reasonably productive, and very solidly middle class. But none of us have followed that minimalistic lifestyle for our kids, and (as I’m sure you’ve noticed) I get twitchy whenever I see anybody whose life philosophy seems to be, “What’s the least I can do for my kids?” Interestingly, despite the fact that we were brought up in the Assemblies of God, all three of us are married to some kind of Catholic, and we’ve all been (to some extent) assimilated into our in-laws’ family cultures. My in-laws definitely have an “anything for the kids!” attitude, my sister’s in-laws do too, and while I don’t know her family, my sister-in-law is energetic and hyper-domestic and I have a lot of respect for her.

 

[bitterhope]

An inheritance like… the Faith?

With the Catholic faith, you can never be truly poor.
Without the faith, you can never be truly rich.

Exactly. A crown of stars in heaven is the only inheritance that truly matters.

As for being a burden–many of us don’t view caring for others as a burden. There are people that consider it an honor. It would be offensive to me if my mom didn’t want us (any one of my siblings or me) to be caring for her. It would be offensive if my inlaws didn’t want us caring for them. My kids already fight over who gets to care for the baby. I’m hopeful that means they will continue to enjoy taking care of each other (and my husband and me) throughout life. Nursing homes, retirement homes and hired in home health aides are not the norm around world and didn’t used to be here either.

Do I expect that all of my kids will remain practicing Catholics? I don’t know. My siblings all are. Some stronger in their faith than others but all weekly Mass attendees. There are 14 of us living. So far all the grandkids are too. My husband’s family only had two kids. His sister rarely attends Mass. She is planning to marry her girlfriend soon. I’m not sure family size is the determining factor in how faithful children will end up as adults.

 

[UbiCaritas]

Exactly. A crown of stars in heaven is the only inheritance that truly matters.

As for being a burden–many of us don’t view caring for others as a burden. There are people that consider it an honor. It would be offensive to me if my mom didn’t want us (any one of my siblings or me) to be caring for her. It would be offensive if my inlaws didn’t want us caring for them. My kids already fight over who gets to care for the baby. I’m hopeful that means they will continue to enjoy taking care of each other (and my husband and me) throughout life. Nursing homes, retirement homes and hired in home health aides are not the norm around world and didn’t used to be here either.

Do I expect that all of my kids will remain practicing Catholics? I don’t know. My siblings all are. Some stronger in their faith than others but all weekly Mass attendees. There are 14 of us living. So far all the grandkids are too. My husband’s family only had two kids. His sister rarely attends Mass. She is planning to marry her girlfriend soon. I’m not sure family size is the determining factor in how faithful children will end up as adults.

While I agree in general with what you say, DH and I have had a few conversations about this kind of thing in the last year that have made us qualify certain things. We have small children in the house, which can be either a very good or a very bad thing in the context of taking in an elderly relative.

My father passed away earlier this year. DH and I had discussed briefly having him live with us, as he was not getting good care where he was. (He also lived across the country, so I couldn’t be physically there for him unless we moved him.) However, there were several problems with that idea, not least of which is that as Dad aged, he became ever-more prone to irrational anger and what could best be described as temper tantrums. He was never diagnosed with dementia or what-have-you, but there was, I am convinced, something going on.

As but one example, at DH’s and my wedding five years ago, he thought it was appropriate to destroy his hotel room (I’m talking windows, furniture, and plumbing smashed, feces smeared on various surfaces, et all) when I said, as I’d warned him for the three months prior, that he would need to get a taxi or perhaps a rental car to take him the less-than-a-mile from his hotel to the church rather than have me pick him up. I wasn’t just getting married that day: I spent the morning moving out of and cleaning my apartment!

It would have been very wrong for me to raise my children in the same house as someone who would behave like that over a $10 (max) taxi fare. I grew up with him screaming at me over what a horrible, demanding person I was for asking him to pick up a gallon of milk while he was at the store anyway. No one deserves to be treated like that, least of all children with no choice in the matter.

He never saved anything for his retirement because he believed it was us kids’ responsibility to take care of his living expenses and medical bills, and thanks to refusing to pay Social Security for most of his working life, he had almost nothing from that, either.

On the other hand, there are DH’s parents, who save almost obsessively for their retirement. DH and I have talked, and in the long-term (they are in very good health now, and likely will be for the next couple of decades), we are thinking of possibilities such as moving them in with us, getting a house with a grandparent apartment, etc. They are both wonderful people who we’d be honored to share a home with–albeit perhaps not a kitchen, as two women in one kitchen often find it hard. Barring something like dementia, I could be perfectly sure that they would not abuse the kids. Quite the opposite: it would be fantastic to have them live with us while the kids are here! If they did need some sort of long-term care, though (think early-onset Alzheimer’s that led to behavior like my father’s, or a catastrophic stroke), then they would be able to afford it without bankrupting us. Surely that’s a good goal to have?

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

While I agree in general with what you say, DH and I have had a few conversations about this kind of thing in the last year that have made us qualify certain things. We have small children in the house, which can be either a very good or a very bad thing in the context of taking in an elderly relative.

My father passed away earlier this year. DH and I had discussed briefly having him live with us, as he was not getting good care where he was. (He also lived across the country, so I couldn’t be physically there for him unless we moved him.) However, there were several problems with that idea, not least of which is that as Dad aged, he became ever-more prone to irrational anger and what could best be described as temper tantrums. He was never diagnosed with dementia or what-have-you, but there was, I am convinced, something going on.

As but one example, at DH’s and my wedding five years ago, he thought it was appropriate to destroy his hotel room (I’m talking windows, furniture, and plumbing smashed, feces smeared on various surfaces, et all) when I said, as I’d warned him for the three months prior, that he would need to get a taxi or perhaps a rental car to take him the less-than-a-mile from his hotel to the church rather than have me pick him up. I wasn’t just getting married that day: I spent the morning moving out of and cleaning my apartment!

It would have been very wrong for me to raise my children in the same house as someone who would behave like that over a $10 (max) taxi fare. I grew up with him screaming at me over what a horrible, demanding person I was for asking him to pick up a gallon of milk while he was at the store anyway. No one deserves to be treated like that, least of all children with no choice in the matter.

He never saved anything for his retirement because he believed it was us kids’ responsibility to take care of his living expenses and medical bills, and thanks to refusing to pay Social Security for most of his working life, he had almost nothing from that, either.

On the other hand, there are DH’s parents, who save almost obsessively for their retirement. DH and I have talked, and in the long-term (they are in very good health now, and likely will be for the next couple of decades), we are thinking of possibilities such as moving them in with us, getting a house with a grandparent apartment, etc. They are both wonderful people who we’d be honored to share a home with–albeit perhaps not a kitchen, as two women in one kitchen often find it hard. Barring something like dementia, I could be perfectly sure that they would not abuse the kids. Quite the opposite: it would be fantastic to have them live with us while the kids are here! If they did need some sort of long-term care, though (think early-onset Alzheimer’s that led to behavior like my father’s, or a catastrophic stroke), then they would be able to afford it without bankrupting us. Surely that’s a good goal to have?

I’m sorry to hear this. It definitely sounds like something was wrong with your Dad’s mental status.

My mom just transferred to a nursing home just a few months ago. She has dementia, with psychosis on top of that. Today I visited her and she was ranting and raving walking up and down the halls. My Dad, was supposed to pick her up and bring her to the doctor. Because she’s pregnant, and due any day now. My dad has been dead for almost 20 years and my mom is 74. I had her stay with me for a while when the psychosis part of the dementia started. During the course of her stay she thought I was her sister, she threatened to smack me, she grabbed me inappropriately, she threatened suicide, and she spent 3 days barely sleeping wandering around the house ranting and raving and bursting into bedrooms. I could not leave her for a minute. I needed to stay in the room with her in case she decided to wander away. You see my Dad was calling her from outside the window.

The appropriateness of nursing home care is really not the topic of this thread though. But sometimes it’s necessary.