When You're Honest With Yourself:

[Voice_of_Reason_1]

I haven’t read all the replies, but to the OP:

Personally, I can’t rationalize there NOT being a God.

If you’re pondering cosmic questions, you might perhaps try to figure out when time started, and when it will end. Where is the edge of the Universe…and what’s beyond that?

Why were you created? Why was any of us created?

These are questions, legitimate questions that are difficult to answer with reason alone.

I would urge you to continue to pray, even if you don’t feel that you mean it or if you think it is absurd or a total waste of time.

I used to think that praying despite myself would be a good idea (because all the greats say that’s how to do it), but these formulas arn’t working. You’ve smuggled the word ‘created’ into your premises to reach the conclusion that there must be a creator. People very easily see design in things, perhaps where there is not, but it is no easier to imagine a causeless universe than a causeless God; I’ve just stopped one step shorter.

In any event, it isn’t these cosmological details that really have me in a bind; it’s the nature of God. I’ve noticed that no one has yet tackled my concern that God is the author of the very will and nature imputed to people who excite God’s wrath to the point of damnation. God creates humans ill and punishes them for not behaving a certain way.

Now, it may seem like I’m building a straw-man of God, and indeed I am. However, this isn’t to say God is contrary to whatsoever people have conjured of him; I’m saying that such a God must not exist if he is the tyrant that the bible, by reason, surely declares Him to be.

 

[spiritualunity]

What I get from what you have written so far, voice of reason, is a person(you) who is very cut off from the neck down. What I mean by this is, you talk using your intellect without much from your heart or soul. In the same way you are trying to find or not find God through reason,whereas most of us find God through our hearts.
I am interested in your emotions. I sense strongly a person who is fearful of going deep inside oneself. There are many doors to enter and rooms to walk through ones entire life. You seem to be stuck in some room and therefore from this you rationalize there is nothing else. This must be very empty of an experience for you.
Faith is a mystery. It is a gift from God too. Prayer is the way to find God. Maybe you need to change the way you are praying?
I know from experience that people who deny God often do so because they have some deep issues inside themselves that need to be looked at. Many times those who have alot of shame and quilt do not want to feel these intensely unpleasant feelings and it is easier to deny their existence along with denying God’s exitence.
One purpose of pray to find God is that you look in your own soul instead of the world around you. I hear you talking about the world around you and going in circles. Trying to figure out a mystery in this way is like a dog chasing his own tail.
Why does it matter so much to you to talk about you not believing in God? Maybe you ought to just go with it and not talk about it for a time and see what happens and what comes up in you?!! OFTEN doing the opposite of what one is doing gets one unstuck. It is like going from one polarity to another and finally you balance out in the middle.
No matter how many people tell you there is a God, you prefer to find ways of disagreeing. I am curious why your even asking? If your so sure there is no God then you would not even ask,especially on a forum such as this. So why ask on here?
When your honest with yourself the buck stops here so to speak. I do not see you being honest with yourself. Because to me how can you call it 'Honest" when you do not accept absolute truth? You have no basis for using the word honest. You are really being rather relative and that is subjective…no absolutes there.
You seem to use your intellect to keep others from coming in. Like you appear to be reaching out for answers, yet your very guarded. What are you afraid of?? Who knows,maybe you afraid to believe in God? I have known people who were,and they came across much like you are here.
I am giving you my observations. Maybe you can use them to truely look and pray at a much deeper level. I would quess that some of what I am saying would upset you,even though I do not intend on that. My intention is to understand where you are HONESTLY coming from because I just haven’t gotten much honesty from your words, instead I have gotten intellectual blah blah blah. I wonder why you want to be this way? So,what is really up with you? You seem to more want to not believe in God then you actually do.I think you do believe in God. I know when I did not believe in God,I did not talk about it because I was settled in my unbelieve and hung around and talked to same minded folks. But your unsettled and on here…so, my conclusion is you do believe in God,but for some reason you would rather not.
You can talk what I have said and use it as a tool. A tool to uncover the real truth or to beat me or yourself up for what I have said.
If you want to talk about this subject then I would like to hear more about your feelings and experiences then the jargen that can go on endlessly with theories and opinions.
Spirit

 

[Voice_of_Reason_1]

What I get from what you have written so far, voice of reason, is a person(you) who is very cut off from the neck down. What I mean by this is, you talk using your intellect without much from your heart or soul. In the same way you are trying to find or not find God through reason,whereas most of us find God through our hearts.

A man of intellect, such as you’ve pegged me, is no more able to find God with his heart than a mentally deficient person is able to. God is clearly a subject of the mind; the seat of intellect. I’ve tried using my heart (i.e., trying to feel like God was listening, trying to feel his presence against all that reason would tell me, but I honestly felt nothing that I couldn’t attribute to my own thoughts, after a better inspection

I am interested in your emotions. I sense strongly a person who is fearful of going deep inside oneself. There are many doors to enter and rooms to walk through ones entire life. You seem to be stuck in some room and therefore from this you rationalize there is nothing else. This must be very empty of an experience for you.

I don’t feel empty being fixated on reason for matters so hotly disputed as this. I am very much about exploring my inner-self but have, after observation, seen it to be of no avail. In any event, this orientation doesn’t permeate the broader of my life domains. I am very loving and sentimental (and in touch with my feelings, if you prefer) in other areas of my life.

Faith is a mystery. It is a gift from God too. Prayer is the way to find God. Maybe you need to change the way you are praying?

**I have prayed many different ways, to which I’ve complained “these formulas arn’t working.” And if Faith is a gift of God, surely he hasn’t endowed me with such patronage. What can I possibly do about that? It is not my gift to receive from He who witholds it. **

I know from experience that people who deny God often do so because they have some deep issues inside themselves that need to be looked at. Many times those who have alot of shame and quilt do not want to feel these intensely unpleasant feelings and it is easier to deny their existence along with denying God’s exitence.

I’m not sure. Myself, I feel very satisfied in life. My issues, as you have doubtless surmised, are purely intellectual. I have no discomfort exploring them.

One purpose of pray to find God is that you look in your own soul instead of the world around you. I hear you talking about the world around you and going in circles. Trying to figure out a mystery in this way is like a dog chasing his own tail.

**My reason (the author of which is God) tells me, when I look around the world (the author of which is God), that the bible is incongruent with the World, at least in equal measures to other Religions. **

 

[Voice_of_Reason_1]

Why does it matter so much to you to talk about you not believing in God? Maybe you ought to just go with it and not talk about it for a time and see what happens and what comes up in you?!! OFTEN doing the opposite of what one is doing gets one unstuck. It is like going from one polarity to another and finally you balance out in the middle.
No matter how many people tell you there is a God, you prefer to find ways of disagreeing. I am curious why your even asking? If your so sure there is no God then you would not even ask,especially on a forum such as this. So why ask on here?

As I have said, the issue matters because I am searching for what is true. I came to develop much of my faith by engaging in this very forum; I figured that perhaps there were people who could pacify my faith-related concerns.

When your honest with yourself the buck stops here so to speak. I do not see you being honest with yourself. Because to me how can you call it 'Honest" when you do not accept absolute truth? You have no basis for using the word honest. You are really being rather relative and that is subjective…no absolutes there.

Your assertion that I’m not acctually being honest with myself is contingent on the very fact of that absolute truth; the very thing I’m questioning. I’m being honest in what I believe. I really, truely, and vehemently believe that [under my current understanding] the God of the bible must not exist. I am open for someone to shed light on the concerns which most plague me (which, no one yet has done, nor attempted)

You seem to use your intellect to keep others from coming in. Like you appear to be reaching out for answers, yet your very guarded. What are you afraid of?? Who knows,maybe you afraid to believe in God? I have known people who were,and they came across much like you are here.

I’m not keeping people out, I’m keeping ideas out, and not out of sheer preference, but as it pretains to good reason. As I have said, I have no attatchment to either there being a God or not. I simply want to know what’s true.

I am giving you my observations. Maybe you can use them to truely look and pray at a much deeper level. I would quess that some of what I am saying would upset you,even though I do not intend on that. My intention is to understand where you are HONESTLY coming from because I just haven’t gotten much honesty from your words, instead I have gotten intellectual blah blah blah. I wonder why you want to be this way? So,what is really up with you? You seem to more want to not believe in God then you actually do.I think you do believe in God. I know when I did not believe in God,I did not talk about it because I was settled in my unbelieve and hung around and talked to same minded folks. But your unsettled and on here…so, my conclusion is you do believe in God,but for some reason you would rather not.

Ad Hominem

You can talk what I have said and use it as a tool. A tool to uncover the real truth or to beat me or yourself up for what I have said.
If you want to talk about this subject then I would like to hear more about your feelings and experiences then the jargen that can go on endlessly with theories and opinions.
Spirit

**My feelings only offer you an angle to tell me how to redirect my heart. This advice, although i appreaciate the effort, cannot re-orient my mind (wherein all the problems lie). I would love if you could adress my problem of God crafting people for desctruction - the bulk of my difficulties within Christianity. **

 

[Newbie2]

I used to think that praying despite myself would be a good idea (because all the greats say that’s how to do it), but these formulas arn’t working. You’ve smuggled the word ‘created’ into your premises to reach the conclusion that there must be a creator.

Actually, that wasn’t intentional. Substitute any word you’d like.

People very easily see design in things, perhaps where there is not, but it is no easier to imagine a causeless universe than a causeless God; I’ve just stopped one step shorter.

In any event, it isn’t these cosmological details that really have me in a bind; it’s the nature of God. I’ve noticed that no one has yet tackled my concern that God is the author of the very will and nature imputed to people who excite God’s wrath to the point of damnation. God creates humans ill and punishes them for not behaving a certain way.

I think you’ll find the answer in the consideration of the notions of free will and original sin. Theologically speaking, it’s our free will that damns us, not the will of the Almighty. We have a way out through Christ. God does not create the ill, he allows us to choose for it to happen or not. This is much different than the notion that God made us as robots with an inability to think and/or act on our own.

Now, it may seem like I’m building a straw-man of God, and indeed I am. However, this isn’t to say God is contrary to whatsoever people have conjured of him; I’m saying that such a God must not exist if he is the tyrant that the bible, by reason, surely declares Him to be.

If your understanding of Scripture is that of the Old Testament, I can see how you’ve come to this conclusion. However, I’d urge you to consider that the notion of God being a tyrant is not an accurate one as reflected in the entirety of scripture.

 

[spiritualunity]

You stated,“Your assertion that I’m not acctually being honest with myself is contingent on the very fact of that absolute truth; the very thing I’m questioning. I’m being honest in what I believe. I really, truely, and vehemently believe that [under my current understanding] the God of the bible must not exist. I am open for someone to shed light on the concerns which most plague me (which, no one yet has done, nor attempted)”

However the title of your thread is said in such a way that you include everyone… if everyone would be honest. Now your telling me it is your truth.

“As I have said, I have no attatchment to either there being a God or not. I simply want to know what’s true.”

This is not true. If you had NO attachment either way you simply would not care. You show you care by asking questions.Therefore,you have an attachment.

Thirdly you said,“My feelings only offer you an angle to tell me how to redirect my heart. This advice, although i appreaciate the effort, cannot re-orient my mind (wherein all the problems lie). I would love if you could adress my problem of God crafting people for desctruction - the bulk of my difficulties within Christianity”

Who do you think oriented your mind in the first place?
I am not trying to redirect you. I am not trying to control you. I am mirroring you. In me mirroring you and stating what your saying in a more direct,simplier manner.Because you seem to not hear yourself. I find much contradiction in you. Just want to point this out so,at least with me, the conversation will be truely honest and not go in circles.

So, I see a person who does care whether or not there is a God. And because you come here to ask questions on this subject and the questions you ask this does show you have a definite attachment. I do not know if this attachment is merely intellectual or emotional or spiritual or?? You do not give enough information about yourself for me to really get where you are coming from. Maybe you do want to believe in God? Maybe not. I personally see so far that you do want or wish there is a God,but you are seeing God through glasses you were told to wear somewhere in your life. I use to wear my mom’s glasses of God.This means that I use to want to believe there was not a God because I saw God as a punishing god who was out there somewhere in the universe and a god who was negative and reading to doom me to hell or hellish exixtence. I get a hunch some of this you can relate to also.
God is not a God of distruction. The devil has come to cause divison,destruction suffering.
the evil one threw at Jesus all he had at Jesus passion and death. What God does iwith our experience of evil is bring good out of it…everytime. I have suffered alot since choosing to follow God. And I have never felt more joy at the same time. I do not like pain or suffering,but I understand as much as I can the mystery of suffering…because I have and do experience suffering.
It is scarry for some to have belief in God because that calls them to a total commitment. But we have only 2 choices in life and that is God or the Devil. As far as proving there is a God,there are plenty of outer things God gave us weak ones,such as bleeding Eucharists that the blood test perpetually fresh. There are countless miracles God graciously has given us to reinforce our faith . But the best is to pray for deep and real faith.
Man sends himself to hell. God wants all of us saved. But by our actions and faith we are either saved or condemned. It would be extremely difficult to be in God’s presence face to face and if you were and all your life you fought against God and made yourself your own God,etc, I would imagine in that situation it would be incredibly difficult to accept God and Heaven.
There is plenty of proof of God’s existence. It depend where you look. When you can see God at work in your own life now,then you can see God in the Bible and all History.
It is always fasinating to me that men of no or little faith, show faith all day long,everyday,for example, you have faith the alarm clock will go off and that your shower and toliet will work and that stop and go lights will turn colors and these are all man made and inferior to God and therefore,things of this world fail us,they break down or rust out,whatever,yet we all show faith in things. It is not really that you lack faith. You show faith all day. It is what you put your faith in!
What do you think would happen if you decided not to believe in God anymore? What does that look like for you in your daily life? I think ALOT of fears and other emotions who surface in you. I think you are afraid of lossing control.
Take what I say and use what works for you and disgaurd what doesn’t. I am just trying to show you a clear perspective of you.

 

[Voice_of_Reason_1]

However the title of your thread is said in such a way that you include everyone… if everyone would be honest. Now your telling me it is your truth.

It is my truth. And my title does include everyone; that was just a defence to your accusation that I wasn’t taking my own advice. Apparently, you and I define honest by the conclusion we inevitably come to.

This is not true. If you had NO attachment either way you simply would not care. You show you care by asking questions.Therefore,you have an attachment.

You constantly confound what I’ve said by what you want me to have said. I don’t have an attachment to which result looms truest; but that doesn’t mean I don’t want the result, in itself. Do you see this distinction? I don’t care what I’ll be dining on this afternoon, but I’d like to know, whether or not, I’ll be dining.

**Thirdly you said,“My feelings only offer you an angle to tell me how to redirect my heart. This advice, although i appreaciate the effort, cannot re-orient my mind (wherein all the problems lie). I would love if you could adress my problem of God crafting people for desctruction - the bulk of my difficulties within Christianity”

Who do you think oriented your mind in the first place?
I am not trying to redirect you. I am not trying to control you. I am mirroring you. In me mirroring you and stating what your saying in a more direct,simplier manner.Because you seem to not hear yourself. I find much contradiction in you. Just want to point this out so,at least with me, the conversation will be truely honest and not go in circles.**

Well appreciated by tenacious believers, to put my words in a more direct way, but what you’ve done is reduce them or confound them. My explanations only need revision because you’d prefer to change what I’m saying, rather than simply address it.

So, I see a person who does care whether or not there is a God. And because you come here to ask questions on this subject and the questions you ask this does show you have a definite attachment. I do not know if this attachment is merely intellectual or emotional or spiritual or?? You do not give enough information about yourself for me to really get where you are coming from. Maybe you do want to believe in God? Maybe not. I personally see so far that you do want or wish there is a God,but you are seeing God through glasses you were told to wear somewhere in your life. I use to wear my mom’s glasses of God.This means that I use to want to believe there was not a God because I saw God as a punishing god who was out there somewhere in the universe and a god who was negative and reading to doom me to hell or hellish exixtence. I get a hunch some of this you can relate to also.

Would that I could – my adoption of Christianity in my late teens was an intellectual decision in itself, and one I reached of my own accord. Now I learned what I needed to make the conversion from a Pentecostal fellow; we’ve since gone different directions in our faith lives and I had ended up at a Catholic Church, but found just as many political, doctrinal, and dogmatic problems there.

God is not a God of distruction. The devil has come to cause divison,destruction suffering.
The thing is, I’ve come to see God and the Devil as complimentary inventions. Religious authorities realized very early on that there was a problem of evil, and so they created a sinister God to be the blame for subjective evil, and our loving Father in Heaven to be praised for subjective good. Whether you call evil or damnation a problem of God or the Devil (like I’ve said), God is still the author directly, or by one degree removed.

 

[Voice_of_Reason_1]

the evil one threw at Jesus all he had at Jesus passion and death. What God does iwith our experience of evil is bring good out of it…everytime. I have suffered alot since choosing to follow God. And I have never felt more joy at the same time. I do not like pain or suffering,but I understand as much as I can the mystery of suffering…because I have and do experience suffering.

These don’t seem like anything more than mental gymnastics to me. All religions have their modes in the same types of practices. When I’m honest with myself, I know that my religion is a function of the environment I live. I know, if I had grown up in the middle east, I would be Islamic. Now a person can comfort only because we perceive that we’re being comforted in times of trial. It follows then, that whether we perceive an actual God or a make-belief one, feelings of comfort are still produced in the brain.

It is scarry for some to have belief in God because that calls them to a total commitment. But we have only 2 choices in life and that is God or the Devil. As far as proving there is a God,there are plenty of outer things God gave us weak ones,such as bleeding Eucharists that the blood test perpetually fresh. There are countless miracles God graciously has given us to reinforce our faith . But the best is to pray for deep and real faith.
Man sends himself to hell. God wants all of us saved. But by our actions and faith we are either saved or condemned. It would be extremely difficult to be in God’s presence face to face and if you were and all your life you fought against God and made yourself your own God,etc, I would imagine in that situation it would be incredibly difficult to accept God and Heaven.
There is plenty of proof of God’s existence. It depend where you look. When you can see God at work in your own life now,then you can see God in the Bible and all History.

Where do you look to find God? It seems like I’ve tried everywhere. If God is there, he is necessarily hidden from me in every form of perception.

It is always fasinating to me that men of no or little faith, show faith all day long,everyday,for example, you have faith the alarm clock will go off and that your shower and toliet will work and that stop and go lights will turn colors and these are all man made and inferior to God and therefore,things of this world fail us,they break down or rust out,whatever,yet we all show faith in things. It is not really that you lack faith. You show faith all day. It is what you put your faith in!

We put faith into things (whether they’re reliable or not) because they appeal to our senses and we know that they exist. Faith, as it pertains to God, certainly can’t be that there is in fact such a God. We have to first know that He is there to put Faith in Him – otherwise we could put faith into any god or idol or imaginary thing.

What do you think would happen if you decided not to believe in God anymore? What does that look like for you in your daily life? I think ALOT of fears and other emotions who surface in you. I think you are afraid of lossing control.

I’m a stable person. Why do you suppose such a thing?

Also, why do you refuse to address my main concern in more than just blanket claims?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

This is not directed at any particular person but rather as something for all reading this to consider:

Wisdom 1:Love justice, you who judge the earth; think of the LORD in goodness, and seek him in integrity of heart; 2 Because he is found by those who test him not, and he manifests himself to those who do not disbelieve him. 3 For perverse counsels separate a man from God, and his power, put to the proof, rebukes the foolhardy; 4 Because into a soul that plots evil wisdom enters not, nor dwells she in a body under debt of sin.So: Are we really searching for the Lord in integrity of heart? Have we already made pre-judgments and found Him lacking in some way and thus are already biased ‘against’ our image of Him? Are we even recognizing Him for who He is or have we made an image of what we think He is and are judging Him based on that?

When we speak of searching for God, are we really searching for Him as He is? Are we trying to put Him to tests so that He will satisfy us and our own finite, fallible, changeable little intellects?

Have we already decided that what we ‘understand’ of Him we don’t like, and so even as we bellow to the world that we are ‘looking for Him’ and ‘would believe Him if ONLY He would show Himself’, are we really seeing Him but refusing to recognize Him because He isn’t what we think He is in **our eyes or minds?

**Are we steeping ourselves so that all we see, and hear, and think, and do, and say, is rooted in a “God-less” atmosphere? Are even the ‘good’ things that we do done for our own selfish desires and not from love? Are we stamping our feet claiming that the light doesn’t shine for us. . .but we have done everything humanly possible to keep ourselves from seeing that light?

 

[Voice_of_Reason_1]

Wisdom 1:Love justice, you who judge the earth; think of the LORD in goodness, and seek him in integrity of heart; 2 Because he is found by those who test him not, and he manifests himself to those who do not disbelieve him. 3 For perverse counsels separate a man from God, and his power, put to the proof, rebukes the foolhardy; 4 Because into a soul that plots evil wisdom enters not, nor dwells she in a body under debt of sin?

You show me a person who doesn’t believe in God and I’ll show you a scripture defending God’s elusivity. There had to be safeguards in Christianity, like any Religion, where people could say “But God seems not to be, by every capacity of the senses!” and the reply comes “You’re not doing it right! You’re being too wise! You’re looking for Him!”
God gives us reason and intellect only to confound it by telling us not to use it in our search for Him, nor even to use it at all - as some scriptures will attest. It’s not only a huge hole in our understanding of God, but is also all too convenient.

 

[spiritualunity]

It appears at this point in your life that you will not be open and honest to listen to anything anyone says that disagrees with you. I think you are putting God in a box of your own limitations and viewpoints. Also,you seem to not be able to stop using your intellect and trust your heart.
Truely,what you say is all a bunch of miss-interpertations and ignorance.
With what I have said to you, somehow you have totally missed the point and I feel misunderstood by you.
I am not going to play this game of cat and mouse any longer with you. I have hit a brick wall,meaning your closed mind that can not possibly see another outlook. Hard to imagine you ever had the least bit of faith.
The most I can do for you is pray for you now. So, I will include you in my prayers,daily,for the rest of my life. This is what I can give to you. And I want to.
Not only have you put God in a box, you have put yourself in one too. God will show you Himself one day, whether here on earth or when you die. I pray it is here on earth. and seeing your stubborness and broken record of speech, I think God will have to use something huge in your life to get your attention. Which is ok,because whatever it takes we all need to grow in faith and love of God.
You do not know my story of my life,but priests have told me I have lived a Job experience.Still do in many ways. It is through my sufferings I have found God and His great love for me.
I make one suggestion for you… Daily,for the rest of your life, meditate on Jesus passion and death and resurretion. Use the rosary and Bible and whatever other resources you can find to do this. I believe that in doing this and asking God to Show you Him and give you the gift of faith, you WILL be transformed in your thinking and you will get to know and trust God.
May God bless you with knowing Him and having a deep faith you can one day help others by faith in God.
God Bless you,Spirit

 

[spiritualunity]

The Pathway of Faith

Scripture: Scripture: Isaiah 41:8-13

I. Introduction: Even in troubling times, followers of Jesus Christ can choose to walk in faith rather than in fear. Our relationship with the Lord gives us the ability to face hardship with confidence in His provision and care. As God’s children, we can rest in the Father’s promise that He will supply all we need.

II. Fear does not fit who we are as children of God.

The Lord says, “Do not fear, for I am with you; do not anxiously look about you, for I am your God. I will strengthen you, surely I will help you, surely I will uphold you with my righteous right hand” (Isa. 41:10).
A fearful spirit is not from God (2 Tim. 1:7). If anxiety prevents you from resting at night or hinders your obedience, you are not demonstrating trust in the Lord. Genuine faith and overwhelming fear are incompatible.
III. Fear affects a person in many different ways. It . . .

•Causes confusion. A fearful person will have a difficult time thinking clearly.
•Contributes to indecision. When someone is afraid of making a mistake, he or she often delays making any choice at all.
•Hinders us from accomplishing God’s will. An apprehensive person misses opportunities because he or she expects failure.
•Damages self-confidence. Frightened people can seem insecure and incompetent because they doubt their ability to succeed.
•Affects our relationships.
•Can lead to full-blown panic.
•Sometimes drives people to drug or alcohol abuse.
IV. God does not want us to walk in fear.

•Jesus reassured His followers that they didn’t have to worry about food, drink, and clothing (Matt. 6:31-33).
•Fearing God does not mean cowering in terror. Instead, it means that we are to revere the Lord and stand in awe of Him. Only those who have not received Christ or walk in deliberate rebellion against Him have a legitimate reason to be afraid of God.
V. What is the pathway of faith?

•Focus on the Lord, not the source of your fears. Instead of dwelling on your problems, choose to think about God’s absolute sovereignty over everything (Ps. 103:19). If you and I are living godly lives, the Lord will turn everything for our ultimate good (Rom. 8:28). Disappointments may come, but they don’t have to discourage us.
•Face moments of doubt and fear by asking the following questions.
1.Where did these doubts originate? Because God says He did not give us a spirit of fear, we know they cannot be from Him.
2.Has God ever failed me in the past? You may be facing a difficult situation, but remind yourself of those times when the Lord provided for you.
3.Doesn’t Scripture say that the Father will meet all my needs? The Lord promises to provide for His people (Phil. 4:19).
4.Why should I ever imagine I’m on my own when trying to do what God requires? You and I can have the power, provision, and guidance of the Holy Spirit, just as the New Testament saints did (Acts 1:8).
5.Didn’t He promise to be with me at all times? If you have trusted Jesus as your personal Savior, you will never be alone again. Christ promised He would neither leave nor forsake you (Heb. 13:5).
6.Is anything too hard for God? No. Boldly express your confidence and trust in the Lord.
7.Is this a fork in the road where my unbelief could cost me a lifetime of regret? When you face major decisions, be especially careful to act in faith rather than fear.
•Feed on God’s Word. Believers are constantly bombarded with worldly lies that distort their perspective and contribute to anxiety. That’s why we must constantly renew our minds with the Word of God (Ps. 119:97-105). As Scripture reminds us, we have a relationship with the Lord that can cancel all our fears (Is. 41:10); we’ve also been given the promise that the Holy Spirit will be our Helper (John 14:16-17). God loves you; allow the Bible to guide and comfort you in times of uncertainty.
•Forge ahead, no matter what people say. Sometimes others will try to discourage you from stepping out in faith, so be careful to reject ungodly advice. And don’t allow adversity to dampen your enthusiasm for pursuing God. Follow the example of the apostle Paul, who, despite difficulties (2 Cor. 11:24-25), never stopped serving the Lord.
•Faithfully and courageously choose to obey God. A believer who is committed to following Jesus has nothing to fear. Obeying the Lord brings blessing, and He promises to use adversity for our good.
VI. Conclusion: When you and I focus on our circumstances, we can find many reasons to feel afraid. But that is not God’s will for His people. Psalm 103:19 says, “The LORD has established His throne in the heavens, and His sovereignty rules over all.” As believers, you and I have the assurance that God is always with us. We need not fear, because He strengthens and helps us in every situation.

 

[paul_c]

I used to think that praying despite myself would be a good idea (because all the greats say that’s how to do it), but these formulas arn’t working. You’ve smuggled the word ‘created’ into your premises to reach the conclusion that there must be a creator. People very easily see design in things, perhaps where there is not, but it is no easier to imagine a causeless universe than a causeless God; I’ve just stopped one step shorter.

In any event, it isn’t these cosmological details that really have me in a bind; it’s the nature of God. I’ve noticed that no one has yet tackled my concern that God is the author of the very will and nature imputed to people who excite God’s wrath to the point of damnation. God creates humans ill and punishes them for not behaving a certain way.

Now, it may seem like I’m building a straw-man of God, and indeed I am. However, this isn’t to say God is contrary to whatsoever people have conjured of him; I’m saying that such a God must not exist if he is the tyrant that the bible, by reason, surely declares Him to be.

So this is really the rub. You are uncomfortable with the nature of God. You wonder why God would create people who will subsequently be damned. You wonder why God is a tyrant and you wonder why God punishes people he created that act in a way that they were predispositioned to act.

Well, its not shocking that you would turn away from the God that you envision here. But that is not the God that the Catholic Church is witness to. God does not create people just to damn them. This is what God gives every person:

• A life that provides the context of our test.
• Reason to find God
• Free will to make decisions to journey to or away from God
• Conscience to let everyone of us know right (going toward God) or wrong (going away from him)
• the sacraments to provide the grace to help us on our journey and the forgiveness of our sins
• the church to teach us the way

God did not make puppets, he made humans and He gives everyone of us what we need to gain eternal life. We just have to cooperate with his plan. Because he is NOT a tyrant, he allows us to make our own choices and sometimes people chose poorly. But he always allows us a chance to reconcile with him as long as WE want to, because he forces no one to love him and he is perfectly merciful. God allows the sun to shine equally on the good and the bad, but he gives every person a unique set of gifts and challenges. It is up to us to do what we can with them. We are all perfectly suited to his plan for us.

Let me tell you a brief story of Bernadette Soubirous. She was exceeedingly poor. She was unhealthy her whole life. She was not intelligent. In fact, in wordly terms, she was a loser. Yet, she was perfectly made to be the witness of our Lady of Lourdes because she was simple, honest, brave and devout and she fulfilled the role magnificently As a result of her witness, many came to be healed physically and many more came to be healed spiritually. Read the Song of Bernadette. It might do you good to see how God works in real life.

 

[spiritualunity]

God loves you!!!

 

[Newbie2]

God gives us reason and intellect only to confound it by telling us not to use it in our search for Him, nor even to use it at all - as some scriptures will attest. It’s not only a huge hole in our understanding of God, but is also all too convenient.

That’s not what he teaches through the Catholic Church. You might find that reading Fides et Ratio (on the relationship between faith and reason) may change your opinion on God not wanting us to use reason and intellect in our search for him. It can be a difficult document to read and understand if you’re not used to reading Papal encyclicals, but you’ll see that using our faith and reason are not discouraged, but rather encouraged.

This was written by Pope John Paul II in 1998.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html

 

[Voice_of_Reason_1]

That’s not what he teaches through the Catholic Church. You might find that reading Fides et Ratio (on the relationship between faith and reason) may change your opinion on God not wanting us to use reason and intellect in our search for him. It can be a difficult document to read and understand if you’re not used to reading Papal encyclicals, but you’ll see that using our faith and reason are not discouraged, but rather encouraged.

This was written by Pope John Paul II in 1998.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html

Yeah, I understand that the Church needs to get caught up to the new age we’re in, and so reason has been permitted sparingly, but the Bible is decidedly against worldly knowledge: humanismbyjoe.com/Bible_Opposes_Knowledge.htm (for you’re reading pleasure)

In any event, far less is my argument that Christianity prohibits reason specifically, and far more is my argument that natural reason (of which the greatest benefactor is our senses) fails to concord well with biblical or religious teachings.

 

[Voice_of_Reason_1]

So this is really the rub. You are uncomfortable with the nature of God. You wonder why God would create people who will subsequently be damned. You wonder why God is a tyrant and you wonder why God punishes people he created that act in a way that they were predispositioned to act.

Well, its not shocking that you would turn away from the God that you envision here. But that is not the God that the Catholic Church is witness to. God does not create people just to damn them. This is what God gives every person:

• A life that provides the context of our test.
• Reason to find God
• Free will to make decisions to journey to or away from God
• Conscience to let everyone of us know right (going toward God) or wrong (going away from him)
• the sacraments to provide the grace to help us on our journey and the forgiveness of our sins
• the church to teach us the way

God did not make puppets, he made humans and He gives everyone of us what we need to gain eternal life. We just have to cooperate with his plan. Because he is NOT a tyrant, he allows us to make our own choices and sometimes people chose poorly. But he always allows us a chance to reconcile with him as long as WE want to, because he forces no one to love him and he is perfectly merciful. God allows the sun to shine equally on the good and the bad, but he gives every person a unique set of gifts and challenges. It is up to us to do what we can with them. We are all perfectly suited to his plan for us.

Let me tell you a brief story of Bernadette Soubirous. She was exceeedingly poor. She was unhealthy her whole life. She was not intelligent. In fact, in wordly terms, she was a loser. Yet, she was perfectly made to be the witness of our Lady of Lourdes because she was simple, honest, brave and devout and she fulfilled the role magnificently As a result of her witness, many came to be healed physically and many more came to be healed spiritually. Read the Song of Bernadette. It might do you good to see how God works in real life.

I’m glad to see my problem framed by other contributers to this thread. Thank you. I think, however, that free will is the leap for me which makes accepting God difficult. Most every rational person would agree that we are profoundly affected by our environment and biology (I go a little further, and say that we are only affected by those factors). Whatever the case - even adding bronze-age metaphores (a contrite heart, a soul or spirit or whathaveyou) doesn’t give us dominion over our own actions (in such a way that would lead to salvation or damnation), because God is the alleged author of those things as well. It is a difficult thing to perceive - that we can not act beyond the nature which is imputed to us (for one, because we like to think of our life as self-directed and autonomous; for two, because we perceive that we could have done something other). We are as determined as vines that grow, and animals that hunt (albeit, our intellects and consciousness make for many more complicated interactions).
Frame it how you wish: God created a world in which people have the potential to perish. Us finite beings, with our limited knowledge, must bear an eternal punishment for not hedging our metaphysical bets and believing on Him. This is a problem.

 

[Voice_of_Reason_1]

God loves you!!!
It appears at this point in your life that you will not be open and honest to listen to anything anyone says that disagrees with you. I think you are putting God in a box of your own limitations and viewpoints. Also,you seem to not be able to stop using your intellect and trust your heart.

What do you mean for me to do when you ask that I 'trust my heart’?

Truely,what you say is all a bunch of miss-interpertations and ignorance.
With what I have said to you, somehow you have totally missed the point and I feel misunderstood by you.
I am not going to play this game of cat and mouse any longer with you. I have hit a brick wall,meaning your closed mind that can not possibly see another outlook. Hard to imagine you ever had the least bit of faith.
The most I can do for you is pray for you now. So, I will include you in my prayers,daily,for the rest of my life. This is what I can give to you. And I want to.
Not only have you put God in a box, you have put yourself in one too. God will show you Himself one day, whether here on earth or when you die. I pray it is here on earth. and seeing your stubborness and broken record of speech, I think God will have to use something huge in your life to get your attention. Which is ok,because whatever it takes we all need to grow in faith and love of God.
You do not know my story of my life,but priests have told me I have lived a Job experience.Still do in many ways. It is through my sufferings I have found God and His great love for me.
I make one suggestion for you… Daily,for the rest of your life, meditate on Jesus passion and death and resurretion. Use the rosary and Bible and whatever other resources you can find to do this. I believe that in doing this and asking God to Show you Him and give you the gift of faith, you WILL be transformed in your thinking and you will get to know and trust God.
May God bless you with knowing Him and having a deep faith you can one day help others by faith in God.
God Bless you,Spirit

All that I can do is wait. The doing angle of things has failed me. I have tried to keep myself open to such divine promptings; I’ve tried to read and pray consistently; I’ve tried to live the sacramental life; I’ve tried to think favourably on the things of God, but I don’t feel anything inside me. And my intellect, after some consideration, tells me nothing either. I appreciate your assertion that God loves me, but how in the world would I ever know that? God has hidden himself from my mind and heart. What have I to conclude except that he mustn’t be? People, I’m aware, have believed in less plausible gods, and in greater numbers throughout history.

 

[benedictus2]

Hi, thank you for posting! I don’t mean to be vague about what my concerns are; I will try to be a little more specific.

I’m not saying that I think reason is incompatiable with faith; reason has simply lead me away from believing in God. The leap of faith, as you call it, is my concern. The word leap is precisely the subterfuge I’m talking about: reason operates in steps, but leaps opperate on assumptions. We’ll simply jump (or leap) to conclusions without considering why we should do so. I can’t simply leap to what I’ve read and fancy.

The leap will not come from you. That will be God’s doing. At the same time, we must not idolize our feeble mental faculties and think that we are capable of comprehending everything by our own efforts.

Pray to have faith. Something like the centurion’s prayer. “Help my unbelief”.

I’m well read in the apologetics, both classical and contemporary. I’ve been through all the modes, classes upon classes of philosophy, the entire Summa Theologica, the Bible a number of times. I promise you, there’s nothing, so much, that I have missed in coming to my conclusions. First, my problem with apologists is that they’re apologicians - making logical incongruities disappear, not by explaining, but by explaining away. The fact that Christianty requires such substantial apologetic theorizing is evidence in itself (as far as I’m concerned) that if there is a God, he surely must not want people to come to know him with any ease. He evades us in his counter-intuitive reasoning, his invisable qualities, the fact that prayers are answered at chance-probability, his inability to appeal to the senses in any way, shape, or form. Everything in the human experience, by secular and religious means, evades the very fact of his existence. If anything - I mean anything - suggested there was something greater, or higher, or altogether different from nature, I would believe with such fortitude. But there’s nothing. If God wanted people to come into communion with Him, why are his ways, decrees, and scriptures so unintelligible?

In everything you have written here, you have remained vague.

What precise belief do you have an issue with?

My salvation is said to come from the choices I make, but what, of my own volition, can make me do the right things? Or the wrong things for that matter? I have a biology and an environment which predisposes me to certain traits.

But all biology gives you are inclinations. You may have sinful inclinatios but you do not have to act out these inclinations. That is where your will comes in. You are free to choose either evil or good.

And even presupposing God: even if I can act in all freedom and rebel against God, and disbelieve in Him, I never asked for the traits or reasoning or life or circumstances which lead to those conclusions.

But you will not be condemned for these traits. It is what you do with these traits that matter. A paraplegic is not expected to complete the course in the same speed and manner that an able man is.

At the same time, we must guard against excusing our wilfull defiance of God. God’s grace is always operative in us. He gives us just enough grace to say yes.

 

[benedictus2]

God, knowing everything, creates people whom He must surely know are going to sin greatly and kindle his wrath and thereby, condition themselves for eternal damnation.

And that is why He gives them enough grace to say yes. That is why He sent His Son to open the flood gates of heaven so that we do not fight the battle against the evil one alone. God knows our weaknesses and knows how much grace we are given to battle these weaknesses. Our salvation and damnation depends on those two. The interplay of Grace and Free Will.

Even if there is choice which leads to salvation, God has crafted people who are better or worse able to make the right choice, like I’ve stated, conditioning themselves for Salvation or punishment.

No God does not condition us to salvation or punishment. The test is to get to the finish line. Everyone gets given enough grace according to one’s requirement. As St Paul says: Where sin abounds even more so grace abounds.
If you succumb to your own sinful nature by your own choice, then that is indeed your fault (after having been supplied with so much grace to fight it). But even then, God gives us the grace to return, to be forgiven and thus be reconciled once more to Him.

The whole point of Christ’s death and resurrection is to reconcile us sinners to Himself.

The Bible’s way of dealing with this problem does more to defeat its own claims than to treat the problem: what if I’m one of those clay pots made (destined) for destruction? It just doesn’t make any sense.

That is because you read some parts of the Bible in isolation. Read the Gospels. Mediatate on them.

The fact that we are required to believe against everything else we know about the world;

No we are not required to believe against everything else we know about the world. That is a total lie.

that we must not test God; that we must open our hearts; that we must reject worldly wisdom and seductive philosophies; that we have to pray earnestly and read often to convince ourselves; all seem like religious safeguards to keep faulty thinking well-intact. We are required to lean not on our own understanding, the author of which is allegedly God. I don’t see good reason in it.

You may not see any good reason in it but a whole lot of people do. Are they all wrong and you alone are right?

I would hazard a guess that your problems stem from other things you have not written here.

I can sense a lot of pride or hurt in this as well. The only way to God is humility. An acceptance that He is God and we are His creatures. Sin is a refusal to accept our creaturedness. But whether we like it or not, this truth, comes to confront. We have to face our own limitedness, our own creaturedness.
I suppose this is where you need to start.

Forgive me if I sound harsh or belittling; that is not my intention. I just want all of you to know how vexed I’m feeling with regards to my faith.

Thank you for all of your replies, folks. I hope to hear some more.

No I don’t think you are belittling or harsh. I think you are in some way honest. But I can’t help thinking that there is something that has brought about your unbelief which you have not laid out here. Perhaps you have not even come to terms with it within yourself.