Where are the men?

[SnorterLuster]

I’ve been mulling this thread for a couple of days now and I have a thought or two that may partly explain not where the men are, rather why they aren’t in Church.

I think most men like to push themselves. We see it in sports and recreation. If it is good to jog a mile, then push yourself and see if you can do five miles. The sweat and the pain prove that the activity is worthwhile. Kind of the “no pain-no gain” type of thinking.

Sometime in my lifetime (60 years), the Church decided that being a Catholic should not be hard. Instead of a religion of pain and sacrifice we became a religion of feel good and accommodation. For instance, the Church no longer required us to sacrifice to receive Communion. Oh, I know there is a one hour fast, but when I was a kid, we had to fast from midnight. And it was tough to go without breakfast and my morning coke to receive our Lord. Men like that sacrifice. They like knowing they are doing something hard. It satisfies a need to prove to yourself and to others that you are “man” enough to take it. Receiving Holy Communion is of course special by its very existence, but our sacrifice to receive seems to add to the specialness. It drew us closer, we felt that we were sacrificing as a price of admission to share in Our Lord’s sacrifice on the altar.

Women of course had to follow the same fasting rules and because of their lower body weight, surely had a harder time. As I remember those days, the women in my family generally only went to Communion if we went to a very early mass. If we went to 11:30 Mass, it was mainly the men who were able to keep the fast.

Another change was, at least in my parish, the reorganization of the parish organizations. For instance there was a men’s club that organized the parish carnival, supplied muscle to projects of the parish, supported little league sports and things of that nature. They also had monthly “smokers” where the men (and the priests) would gather to smoke cigars, have a drink and shoot the bull. Cards might be played, the problems of the world solved, and support offered to those guys having problems. No women or children. Just a time to be with other men in an unstructured atmosphere enjoying each others company. Part of the parish community.

Sometime in the 1970s the parish council decided that all parish groups had to be open to both genders. It was the death knell for the men’s club. Luckily the Knights were exempted and they survived I think, but the Men’s Club soon disbanded when the first women started showing up for the smokers. It was just a few years before the parish carnival was cancelled because even if the ladies could & did organize it, they lacked the muscle and skills to build the booths and get the thing set up and taken apart. The parish little league teams transferred to the YMCA as the Catholic league fell apart. Before the changes, the men did things the way they wanted to. It might not have been the fastest or easiest way, but it was the way they wanted it and they enjoyed doing the job. After the changes, the men became just handymen, doing things that the committees wanted them to do. Needless to say the various committees found themselves with fewer and fewer men volunteering to work on the various projects.

My point is, the men started drifting away when nothing was asked of them or their (name removed by moderator)ut valued. Like the society around us, the Church in the U.S. anyway, became female friendly without considering the differences between the personalities of men and women. As a generalization, women want consensus and no conflict; men want decisiveness and competition.

 

[rpp]

Or could it be the men need to take a look at what is wrong with them? If your answer to all the problems in this world is to leave the Church then it’s YOU that has the problem and not the women. If men are leaving the Church it’s because they have lost focus on what the Mass is all about…Jesus. Who cares who is doing what? If men don’t want women doing these positions then maybe instead of cutting and running like a Democrat you should maybe volunteer so the priests don’t have to rely on the women like they do.

Blaming the victim neither addresses the problem nor promotes intelligent debate. The fact is many men are scared off even before they walk in. Organizations dominated by women, as many Cathoilic parishes and a few diocese are, have a flavor about that is significantly different that than those that are not.

Men are not involved because feminists chased them away. Just like they did to the Jaycees a couple of decades ago.

While men do not necessarily want to attend Mass at a Man’s club, they certainly do not want to attend Mass at the lady’s garden club.

The solution. Integrate leadership roles in parish management. Why does everyone working for parish office have to be a woman? If they cannot find a male employee to keep balance, then that is a job taht should not be done.

Remember, Christ gave us a commission to preach the gospel to the whole world. Peace and justice, helping the poor, doing other good works must always be second to preaching the Gospel. If you are chasing away men, you are failing at preaching the gospel.

Remember, we cannot judge what the Cathoilic Church must do based on sensibilities beaten into us by generation anti-Christian feminists, even if some of them call themselves Catholic.

 

[chotock]

I work in a clerical position and have been told that I need to be more manly and choose a man’s job. Something to think about with the previous poster’s comment about needing more men in the office.

as a side note, I also work part-time with in my father’s pest control company and spend as much time as possible outdoors hiking and camping. Basically, what you see is not always what you get. I know many a gay man that have hard corp construction jobs and ride rodeo bulls, they are far from effeminate, while I also know a multitude of straight men who shy away from camping for fear of bugs and outdoor toilets. Effimenate behavious is cultural and not a cross the board reality.

Many woman in my family get called lesbian because they are true to life farm girls that grew up working right along their father (no boys) working the cattle and crops on the family farm (work has to be done by someone), while a few men I know are called effeminate for being raised in the city with privelege.

 

[rpp]

What are we women supposed to do??? Knock men over the head and drag them to mass??? http://www.smiling-faces.com/babies/caveman.gif My parents always taught me that you can’t make anyone do anything - they have to want to do it themselves. And why blame the women and suggest that they are doing something wrong??? It didn’t fly in the Garden of Eden when Adam blamed Eve, and it won’t fly now!

If men don’t like women serving at mass, then they need to get over it and step up and be MEN. They need to stop being wimps and start being the leaders they are meant to be. Until those men step up, they have no right to complain.

For what it’s worth, I would gladly stop give up being a reader and occasionally serving as an EMHC if the men in my parish would just step up and take the lead.

If you offend someone that results in them ignoring God or fleeing church and your response is to tell them “Get over it!”, how exactly does that glorify God? How does that fulfil our mission to preach the gospel?

No. This attitude is comes directly from feminism, which many have argued is a diabolical influence. It must be rejected.

It is pride and arrogance to say “If you don’t like what I am doing, go separate yourself from God.” When we chase people away from church, particularly spiritually immature people, that is what we say.

There is no doubt that men are leaving the Church in nuumbers far exceeding the departure of women. The number of married women who attend Mass without their husbands is huge. To claim that women are not somehow both part of the cause and part of the potential solution is absurd.

Despite the protestations and denials of many here, the Church is now a decidedly feminine environment.

Ladies, want to make a difference? Stop complaining about being a sports widow. Stop demanding that men relate to you only on your terms. Start trying to relate to men on their terms. Gender equality is a two-way street. Let the boys play with a footbal and not dolls (excuse me action figures.) Stop pushing your daughters into sports, let them, instead, be women.

 

[Norseman82]

This article is a “must read”:

crossrhythms.co.uk/articles/life/Where_are_Gods_Warriors_and_Wild_Men/11659/p1/

Personally, I think a lot of the “missing men” - especially among the young - are due to the lures of the secular world - as long as their 401Ks are growing and they’re getting the notches in their bedposts, hey, life is good.

Also, it seems to me that people are often afraid to speak the truth because of the whole “political correctness” thing, otherwise you are labeled as “judgmental” or “not Christlike” and we end up tippy-toeing around serious issues. It seems to me that we’re only allowed to imitate Christ when it comes time to be spit upon but not when it’s time to overturn some tables.

Additionally, the legalization of abortion has done a number on us, because if we speak too strongly against extra-marital sexual activity to an unwed mother, we risk a murder of an unborn baby.

That being said, I also think a lot of the old-school nuns I’ve had as teachers would also have a hard time in today’s “politically correct” world!

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

This is a good and important thread. It is obvious that most of the men (and some of the women) have made it explicitly clear what the problem is. And that is the feminization or “sissifying” of the Church. And I can say as a man that I think they are right on. I think it first starts with the liturgy. Men are instinctively repulsed by a liturgy that has the ambience of a group hug. You might see a similar reaction if a man had to attend a Tupperware party or a baby shower.

Further, the new liturgy seems to be intentionally designed (along with much of modern church architecture) to simply be inoffensive to Protestants (and others). Part of being a man is being willing to lay down the gauntlet and say what’s what even if they kill you for it (think of Saint Stephen).

When the epitome of the Church’s mission seems to be effeminate “dialogue” it’s no wonder men don’t see much need for their presence. You don’t need men for dialogue, women will do just fine. I believe more exposure to a masculine liturgy which confronts the world as opposed to just laying down before it like a surrendering dog would quite easily attract men.

Here is an article by Fr. James McClucas from Latin Mass Magazine called, “The Emasculation of the Priesthood”:

http://www.latinmassmagazine.com/articles/articles_emasculation.html

 

[Norseman82]

Ladies, want to make a difference? Stop complaining about being a sports widow. Stop demanding that men relate to you only on your terms. Start trying to relate to men on their terms. Gender equality is a two-way street. Let the boys play with a footbal and not dolls (excuse me action figures.) Stop pushing your daughters into sports, let them, instead, be women.

I disagree with the notion that women should be excluded from sports, chiefly because women need an assertive side to them when it comes time to stand up for their purity in the dating world.

However, yes, men need to be allowed to be men. I’m not talking about the “boys will be boys” shenanigans of how many they can “score” with. It seems today that we are spending so much effort in appeasing the feminist crowd who are upset that they cannot become priests that we have become clueless to the needs of young males. The average normal male basically is wired to get established in two areas: career and family. Unfortunately, if you go to many of these young adult ministry events, these goals are derided; how often do you hear the message “maybe that’s not what God wants for you”; “you don’t need a wife/family to be complete”; “in God’s time, not yours”; “you need to be happy being single first before you are ready for marriage”; “if you put God first He will send you a wife”. They forget that being single means being celibate and that scripture attests to the fact that not everyone can handle lifelong celibacy (see 1 Cor. 7 and Matthew 19:12) and that if they could handle lifelong celibacy they would probably be wearing collars by now. They want good Catholic men yet male virgins who go to church are rejected for those who aren’t. People were previously told to wait until late 20’s/early 30s before you get married, now once we’re in that age group or past it we’re told that we’ve waited too long.

So what happens? Males go elsewhere. It may be to the evangelical mega-churches like Willow Creek, but it could also be into the dog-eat-dog secular world where they end up in sinful lifestyles. Some that stay become the “bitter bachelor” pew-warmers who do just do their minumum.

And we lose them.

And we ask why.

 

[Saint_Michael]

This is a good and important thread. It is obvious that most of the men (and some of the women) have made it explicitly clear what the problem is. And that is the feminization or “sissifying” of the Church. And I can say as a man that I think they are right on. I think it first starts with the liturgy. Men are instinctively repulsed by a liturgy that has the ambience of a group hug. You might see a similar reaction if a man had to attend a Tupperware party or a baby shower.

Further, the new liturgy seems to be intentionally designed (along with much of modern church architecture) to simply be inoffensive to Protestants (and others). Part of being a man is being willing to lay down the gauntlet and say what’s what even if they kill you for it (think of Saint Stephen).

When the epitome of the Church’s mission seems to be effeminate “dialogue” it’s no wonder men don’t see much need for their presence. You don’t need men for dialogue, women will do just fine. I believe more exposure to a masculine liturgy which confronts the world as opposed to just laying down before it like a surrendering dog would quite easily attract men.

Here is an article by Fr. James McClucas from Latin Mass Magazine called, “The Emasculation of the Priesthood”:

http://www.latinmassmagazine.com/articles/articles_emasculation.html

I agree with this, most Catholic men reveled in being reviled by Protestants and others. They felt they were remaining faithful in a battle. This attracts men, but when we have a modern Church that deals with spirituality like a group hug and a “let’s not offend those different than us” policy, it’s like why bother to a lot of men.

You can see this in Ireland too, Ireland was historically probably the most faithful and discriminated Catholic country in the world. The men loved their faith because it’s one thing those that hated them couldn’t take, it was a battle for them. Now the money is coming in, and every ecumenical gathering waters down more and more Catholic culture and identity, and you have a country with typically between an 85-90% Mass attendance, now hovering around 45% in about 15 years.

If Mass is just flowers and a group hug, men lose interest, men want a battle, a war against evil. To them their spirituality is probably more focused on prayers like the Saint Michael prayer, and Christ rebuking the devil. We need more of that to bring the men back. Spirituality needs to be portrayed as the war it is to men.

 

[PerkyCurlz]

If you offend someone that results in them ignoring God or fleeing church and your response is to tell them “Get over it!”, how exactly does that glorify God? How does that fulfil our mission to preach the gospel?

No. This attitude is comes directly from feminism, which many have argued is a diabolical influence. It must be rejected.

It is pride and arrogance to say “If you don’t like what I am doing, go separate yourself from God.” When we chase people away from church, particularly spiritually immature people, that is what we say.

There is no doubt that men are leaving the Church in nuumbers far exceeding the departure of women. The number of married women who attend Mass without their husbands is huge. To claim that women are not somehow both part of the cause and part of the potential solution is absurd.

Despite the protestations and denials of many here, the Church is now a decidedly feminine environment.

Ladies, want to make a difference? Stop complaining about being a sports widow. Stop demanding that men relate to you only on your terms. Start trying to relate to men on their terms. Gender equality is a two-way street. Let the boys play with a footbal and not dolls (excuse me action figures.) Stop pushing your daughters into sports, let them, instead, be women.

I’m not asking anyone to separate themselves from God, just to stand up for God and his Church. If someone doesn’t like how things are, they have the right and duty to stand up for what they believe and to take steps to correct what they feel is wrong. To sit back and blame others is selfish and irresponsible. Men today need to stop wringing their hands and giving up saying “the women have taken over and there’s nothing we can do!” They need to step forward to assist at mass and get involved in the parish instead of leaving it to the women to do.

Did the saints sat back and do nothing while things were falling apart all around them? Did they run away from things that weren’t as they liked? Did they give up when things looked hopeless? Or did they step forward and fight for what was right?

And, for your information, this is what my husband does. In my opinion, he is a good example of what a REAL MAN in the Catholic Church might be because he leads by example and steps forward when needed. My husband *is *at mass with me each Sunday (and throughout the week). We *don’t *hold hands during the Our Father, and we pray the Rosary either before or after mass together. And my husband has fought his extreme shyness and discomfort with public speaking to begin serving as a reader and EMCH (so I will have to do this *only *when no others are available). He is also discerning his call to be a deacon - and I support this! And we are encouraging our nephew to be an altar server and priest (no kids of our own yet).

On a personal note, I don’t complain about being a “sports widow”, I’m sitting there next to my husband watching the sports. (If a woman is a “sports widow” does that mean that her man is more interested in sports than anything else is in danger of making sports his idol?) As for relating to men on their terms, I work with nothing but men in a male-dominated field. Since there are 3 of them and one of me, we watch what *they *want to on TV. Never have I turned on the WE channel and asked them to watch with me. I play sports and work out, and I won’t give this up. Being strong and fit and learning teamwork doesn’t make girls and women any less feminine.

 

[aurora77]

I am, I’m in the seminary right now because I took the initiative to go counter to the secular culture around me and follow the call I discern. I put up with ignorant secularists accusing me (in a roundabout ‘joking’ way) of wanting to “have my way with” the altar boys, or even with fellow Catholics who think anyone who wants to be a priest is obviously “effete” because he doesn’t want a wife etc. etc. ad nauseam. Thank you for making that decision. It’s shameful that anyone would say the things to you that you’ve heard. There is no excuse for that sort of behavior.

I’m sorry that you don’t see the writing on the wall, but lots of folks think liturgical jobs are “girly” or for closet homosexuals. They are wrong, no doubt about it, but how things are going doesn’t help the issue. OK, I don’t see this in my parish, so I don’t understand, but I’ll grant your point. What do we do to fix this? Eliminate all women from reading, EMHC-ing, singing in the choir, teaching CCD? Again, from my parish experience, we have a vibrant KofC organization that full of manly men who do much good for our parish and our community at large. They co-exist well with the women of the parish. I think both men and women need to fully appreciate how vital we both are to the Chuch and have mutual respect.

I will grant that girl altar boys and women as EMHC, readers, etc. are not the front and center main issue (which is a crisis of faith) but they are not so insignificant as to be totally discounted. Furthermore, I don’t even think that women should be utterly banned from any and all liturgical functions, I just think we need a more honest inquiry into the matter. One cannot justify throwing 1000 some odd years of tradition out with radical feminism or “it works, so it must be OK”.

I’m certainly not advocating throwing out tradition. I’m not sure that anyone in this thread is. You hit the nail on the head that the central issue is a crisis of faith. Too many American Catholics think that they don’t have to believe what the Church teaches.

Andrei–Thank you for answering my question about what you are doing for the Church. You’re the only one who has. I hope you’ll make it through seminary and become a wonderful priest.

Not directly to Andrei ('cause you don’t seem to feel this way), but I get the feeling that most of the men on here who are concerned with women in the sanctuary also don’t like the Novus Ordo Mass. Do you feel the TLM is more “manly”? What makes it more manly? What is it liturgically that makes it more manly?

 

[aurora77]

I am, I’m in the seminary right now because I took the initiative to go counter to the secular culture around me and follow the call I discern. I put up with ignorant secularists accusing me (in a roundabout ‘joking’ way) of wanting to “have my way with” the altar boys, or even with fellow Catholics who think anyone who wants to be a priest is obviously “effete” because he doesn’t want a wife etc. etc. ad nauseam. Thank you for making that decision. It’s shameful that anyone would say the things to you that you’ve heard. There is no excuse for that sort of behavior.

I’m sorry that you don’t see the writing on the wall, but lots of folks think liturgical jobs are “girly” or for closet homosexuals. They are wrong, no doubt about it, but how things are going doesn’t help the issue. OK, I don’t see this in my parish, so I don’t understand, but I’ll grant your point. What do we do to fix this? Eliminate all women from reading, EMHC-ing, singing in the choir, teaching CCD? Again, from my parish experience, we have a vibrant KofC organization that full of manly men who do much good for our parish and our community at large. They co-exist well with the women of the parish. I think both men and women need to fully appreciate how vital we both are to the Chuch and have mutual respect.

I will grant that girl altar boys and women as EMHC, readers, etc. are not the front and center main issue (which is a crisis of faith) but they are not so insignificant as to be totally discounted. Furthermore, I don’t even think that women should be utterly banned from any and all liturgical functions, I just think we need a more honest inquiry into the matter. One cannot justify throwing 1000 some odd years of tradition out with radical feminism or “it works, so it must be OK”.

Thank you for making the decision to become a priest. It’s shameful that anyone would say the things to you that you’ve heard. There is no excuse for that sort of behavior

OK, I don’t see this in my parish (men thinking being involved in the parish/liturgically as girly), so I don’t understand, but I’ll grant your point. What do we do to fix this? Eliminate all women from reading, EMHC-ing, singing in the choir, teaching CCD? Again, from my parish experience, we have a vibrant KofC organization that full of manly men who do much good for our parish and our community at large. They co-exist well with the women of the parish. I think both men and women need to fully appreciate how vital we both are to the Chuch and have mutual respect

I’m certainly not advocating throwing out tradition. I’m not sure that anyone in this thread is. You hit the nail on the head that the central issue is a crisis of faith. Too many American Catholics think that they don’t have to believe what the Church teaches.

Andrei–Thank you for answering my question about what you are doing for the Church. You’re the only one who has. I hope you’ll make it through seminary and become a wonderful priest.

Not directly to Andrei ('cause you don’t seem to feel this way), but I get the feeling that most of the men on here who are concerned with women in the sanctuary also don’t like the Novus Ordo Mass. Do you feel the TLM is more “manly”? What makes it more manly? What is it liturgically that makes it more manly?

 

[netmilsmom]

I just want every one here to know this.
My parish has no female altar servers, we have choir girls.

We do however have 250 men and boys that serve. (out of 800 families) We even get boys to serve weekday masses.

 

[PerkyCurlz]

I just want every one here to know this.
My parish has no female altar servers, we have choir girls.

We do however have 250 men and boys that serve. (out of 800 families) We even get boys to serve weekday masses.

This is a great example of men (and boys) stepping forward to be leaders in their parish!
:clapping:

I’m sure the men in this parish are leaders in their families as well.

 

[the_phoenix]

My new parish also has only male altar boys, and allows choir girls. It’s because the pastor, God bless him, sets the tone.

And I must say, when I compare my Novus Ordo parish and the indult Latin Mass parish I attend as a visitor where there are only male altar boys, against two other Novus Ordo parishes I’ve been at where they allow female altar servers … there is FAR MORE RESPECT for JESUS IN THE HOLY EUCHARIST in the parishes with the male-only altar boys.

Which, by the way, translates into increased courtesy and respect in the way parishioners treat each other … at least that’s what I’ve noticed personally in my own experience.

So please, men … feel welcome to take over from us women. As a woman myself, I’m very happy when men run the parish in the roles of altar boy, lector, cantor, Eucharistic Minister, etc.

~~ the phoenix

 

[netmilsmom]

This is a great example of men (and boys) stepping forward to be leaders in their parish!
:clapping:

I’m sure the men in this parish are leaders in their families as well.

Yup!
Our men are strong and our women are holy. We play hard and pray hard.
Life is good here.

 

[deb1]

I haven’t read every post so I don’t know if this issue has been addressed. This thread has gotten very long so it is a little difficult for those of us who are jumping in late.

I used to love to watch old television reruns of shows like Father knows Best or Leave It To Beaver. One thing that always struck me was how well men were portrayed.

Today, on TV and in movies most men are portrayed as stupid bumpkins unable to make a decision for themselves without the assistance of a female.

Very bad behavior is depicted as the norm for an average male, such as womanizing or sitting inactive in front of the tv.

A few years ago, my own son-who was only 11-came to me worried because he liked to read books and draw. He had heard a comedian comment that men only like to make fire and see someone naked(Okay, I was unusually lax one day in checking out what he was viewing on tv ) I had to explain to him that he was normal and that there was nothing feminine about enjoying the activities that he liked.

At one point it was men who created the majority of the music, culture and art around us. Somehow activities such as these are suddenly unmasculine. What happened?

 

[chicago]

I’m not asking anyone to separate themselves from God, just to stand up for God and his Church. If someone doesn’t like how things are, they have the right and duty to stand up for what they believe and to take steps to correct what they feel is wrong. To sit back and blame others is selfish and irresponsible. Men today need to stop wringing their hands and giving up saying “the women have taken over and there’s nothing we can do!” They need to step forward to assist at mass and get involved in the parish instead of leaving it to the women to do.

When men try to step up and truly be involved, they are often given the clear message that they are messing up the comfortable status quo and either need to get with the program or sit down and shut up. Not wanting to have to take that kind of thing, they eventually just turn away.

Did the saints sat back and do nothing while things were falling apart all around them? Did they run away from things that weren’t as they liked? Did they give up when things looked hopeless? Or did they step forward and fight for what was right?

 

[PerkyCurlz]

When men try to step up and truly be involved, they are often given the clear message that they are messing up the comfortable status quo and either need to get with the program or sit down and shut up. Not wanting to have to take that kind of thing, they eventually just turn away.

I’m sorry, but this sounds like a cop out to me. I guess I live in a fantasy world where the husband is the *head *of the household and the wife is the heart and this translates into roles not only in the family but also in society. But I guess that since many men won’t step up and take control within the family and society in general, they won’t do so within the Church. I guess the Church is just a reflection of society in general…

 

[deb1]

I’m sorry, but this sounds like a cop out to me. I guess I live in a fantasy world where the husband is the *head *of the household and the wife is the heart and this translates into roles not only in the family but also in society. But I guess that since many men won’t step up and take control within the family and society in general, they won’t do so within the Church. I guess the Church is just a reflection of society in general…

But when did this happen? How did we go from Father Knows Best to Dad’s an incompetent idiot who needs mom to tell him how to run his life?

By the way, the above statement is no reflection on my wonderful husband.

 

[Saint_Michael]

I used to love to watch old television reruns of shows like Father knows Best or Leave It To Beaver. One thing that always struck me was how well men were portrayed.

Today, on TV and in movies most men are portrayed as stupid bumpkins unable to make a decision for themselves without the assistance of a female.

I’m glad someone else said this, I posted this earlier that today on T.V. in sitcoms women are typically pretty, smart, funny, and strong, and the men are protrayed as fat, ignorant, worthless, drunkard, lazy bums. Even commercials you have some guy too dumb to change a tire until a woman shows him how to do it. Typically men are depicted as little more than an extra child.