Where can I find the Mormon teaching on Africans being fallen Angels?

[higherednerd]

Endowments: They do them posthumously too.

 

[dianaiad]

I was told that some were literally jumping for joy. I joined a few months after this, so I wasn’t there. I can believe that some were happy, because I was in a major metropolitan area, we had lots of modern, educated people, many converts from more racially mixed areas, and the doctrine had become an embarassment in modern times.

We were. I remember that June morning very well. I was so full of joy when I heard the announcement on the radio that I couldn’t keep it in the house; I had to run outside and shout for the very joy of it.

…and I was NOT thinking about how this meant that Christ was coming in the morning.

 

[dianaiad]

Brinham Young in 1859 said “How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam’s children are brought up to that favourable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be removed”

Have any other descendents of Adam recieved the blessing since 1978?

I do believe that it is available to all other ‘descendents of Adam,’ yes.

 

[dianaiad]

Tell us what this means to a Mormon if they are refused the endowment?

They have to wait. Of course, now such a refusal is based only upon individual worthiness, not on genealogy. Elijah Abel, of course, has had his Temple work done. One presumes that he would welcome it.

 

[Jerusha]

I’ve read speculation that Elijah was an octoroon, so his descendants would have looked whiter and whiter as generations went by

I am not surprised at that. He was probably quite eager for himself and his children to pass into the white population, given the racism that existed at that time. He depended on the LDS church to bleach him.

 

[dianaiad]

I am not surprised at that. He was probably quite eager for himself and his children to pass into the white population, given the racism that existed at that time. He depended on the LDS church to bleach him.

Well, he was certainly a freed slave…but…here is a picture of the man:
http://dipity.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/events/8b032b257ab0f30b3fa1a70b750e3e71.jpg

That he is obviously at least HALF 'white" seems clear, but more than that? …no. I think he’s more ‘Barack Obama’:
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

than Homer Plessey.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Well, if that were true, Jerusha, you would think that he would have left the church in high dudgeon when he was refused his endowments and asked not to excercise his priesthood. However, he remained a faithful member of the church all his life, served three full missions (dying two weeks after he returned from the third one) and so have most of his descendents remained faithful. Your snarky comments about his service and his faith are inappropriate.

 

[Jerusha]

It is hard to tell in a small black and white old photograph. Thank you for your offering. And I have the right to get snarky. Just to see what ire I can arouse in you. It is rather fun to elicit anger from a Mormon, nowadays, rather than lapse into fearful silence.

 

[higherednerd]

Nowadays, why would anyone be afraid of a Mormon or Mormonism? 1850s in Deseret, maybe. But now?

It is worthwhile to note that the Mormon church stridently and effectively opposed KKK expansion into the area that was “Deseret.” Of course, they may have had an additional ulterior motive: to protect their authority. They wouldn’t put up with any challenges to their leadership, and the KKK considered themselves to be an enforcement organization. Compare Colorado, with miniscule Mormon presence until recent decades. In the 1920s and around that time, it was a KKK stronghold (I live here so I know).

 

[dianaiad]

It is hard to tell in a small black and white old photograph.

Not that hard; the features are pretty clear.

Thank you for your offering. And I have the right to get snarky. Just to see what ire I can arouse in you. It is rather fun to elicit anger from a Mormon, nowadays, rather than lapse into fearful silence.

I see.

I thought that trolling was against the forum rules? The idea in here is civil discussion, not to inflame others.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I do not need any subscription to gospelink.

The prophets say things some of it should not be taken as scripture. This fallen talk is example of that.

Just because one of found it on gospelink means nothing to me.

I go back to the Old Testament times when all the men of the time did not hold the priesthood.

No such ban ever existed based on race.

And yes, you should remain as ignorant as possible of mormon history if it is your desire to be a mormon.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Which do you think is better; a politically correct apology for actions that are STILL GOING ON, or the action which eliminates the problem completely?

What is still going on?

the fact is, Rebecca, the CoJCoLDS is not racist, officially or un–and there have been no, repeat, NO racist policies or problems that you can point at since 1978. Anywhere. Towards anyone, for anything. No news reports. No complaints of discrimination. Nothing. The only thing anybody can point to is the pre-1978 priesthood ban, which was reversed in the space of a sunny summer morning.

I have nothing to say to this but WHATEVER!

yet Catholics are still finding new things to apologize for—and not, evidently, actually FIX; like the problems with native priests and nuns in South Africa, or the fact that the Catholic black population (all shades of ‘black,’ not simply those of African descent) are not represented proportionately in the clergy–by a factor of about 10 to 1. In fact, most black Catholic congregations must be administered to by white priests—because there are not enough black ones…

You think this is based on race? I read it is based on priests who prey on the ignorance of the nuns who have not been properly taught the role of a priest.

Further, please provide for me the Church teaching that instructs priests to be sexual predators. One that is comparable to your Church teaching that a black person will be a servant in heaven.

And you still HAVE ‘black congregations,’ not simply Catholic congregations." You celebrate them.

Not everything is about race Diana. You seem to think everything is. Let us go back to the Papal bull you think is about race, it is not, it was about pagans. (Which no, I don’t think that makes it all better.)

The Catholic Church does not force all its members to conform to some righteous idea of white middle class American culture. We don’t teach that if you achieve this goal it means God has blessed you.

Many Catholics around the world retain their cultures. So yes indeed, we do celebrate the diversity within the Church, we don’t try to smother it out.

No one in the Catholic Church is assigned to a Parish. If people are going to a parish that has more African American cultural elements to it, IT IS BECAUSE THE CHOOSE TO.

Just as the Spanish Mass at our Cathedral is in Spanish, with music that reflects the culture of the people who attend. We don’t see this as a bad thing, WHY DO YOU?

so lay off, Rebecca. Disagree with LDS doctrine and beliefs if you wish; that is a reasonable and logical way to oppose us. Say that we are incorrect because we believe the wrong things. But when you claim that we are wrong BECAUSE we have been racist in the past, you are treading on very, very, very dangerous ground; because if we are wrong because we were racist for 150 years, what does that say about Catholicism, which was unabashadly racist for considerably over a millenium—and in spite of the advances of recent years, STILL HAS PROBLEMS IN THAT AREA?

Lay off what, your continued twisting of facts to suit your goal of slandering Catholics and the Catholic Church? I DON’T THINK SO!

 

[Rocket_Man]

I do believe that it is available to all other ‘descendents of Adam,’ yes.

Your avoiding the question.

Bringham Young was the prophet and First President of the LDS church. Right?
How is it he said that the priesthood would be denied to the Negro until after the decendents of Abel had recieved the priesthood. Dead Last Right?

How is it today, your white colored son’s are still recieving the priesthood?

LDS author John Lewis Lund wrote in 1967 “Brigham Young revealed that the negro will not receive the Priesthood until a great while after the second coming of Jesus Christ, whose coming will usher in a millennium of peace”.[41]

I know that John Lewis Lund doesn’t speak for the LDS church, I am only reflecting what some LDS thought of the lifting of the priesthood ban.

It is eye opening that all these “opinions” made by these modern day prophets made there way into the everyday temple practices, sealings and endowments, yet we are suppose to believe they weren’t church doctrine.

 

[dianaiad]

Nowadays, why would anyone be afraid of a Mormon or Mormonism? 1850s in Deseret, maybe. But now?

It is worthwhile to note that the Mormon church stridently and effectively opposed KKK expansion into the area that was “Deseret.” Of course, they may have had an additional ulterior motive: to protect their authority. They wouldn’t put up with any challenges to their leadership, and the KKK considered themselves to be an enforcement organization. Compare Colorado, with miniscule Mormon presence until recent decades. In the 1920s and around that time, it was a KKK stronghold (I live here so I know).

The KKK didn’t like us much, y’know. I believe that the KKK “Grand Wizard” of Wyoming considered the Mormons to be the ‘greatest enemy’ of the KKK. the Klan was very active in Utah…or tried to be. It consisted of anti-Mormons, Masons (at the time, the Masons were VERY anti-Mormon) and, well…Baptists. Anti-Catholic, Anti-Mormon, anti-Black, anti-about everything, they weren’t a pleasant bunch. the Mormons pretty much kicked 'em out.

Unfortunately, a third incarnation of the Klan showed up in the late seventies to early 80’s, and they were mostly white supremicist Mormons. Not many of them, and they were soon kicked out of Utah and sent to join their Idaho white supremicist brethren, but (shrug) there they were. I think that one lasted about, oh…four years or so.

 

[dianaiad]

What is still going on?

Problems with race, Rebecca. The Catholics still have race relation problems.

I have nothing to say to this but WHATEVER!

Of course you don’t. There is nothing you CAN say.

You think this is based on race? I read it is based on priests who prey on the ignorance of the nuns who have not been properly taught the role of a priest.

By whom? the WHITE nuns don’t have that problem, Rebecca.

Not everything is about race Diana. You seem to think everything is. Let us go back to the Papal bull you think is about race, it is not, it was about pagans. (Which no, I don’t think that makes it all better.)

for ‘pagans’ read ‘non-white, non-Catholic,’ Rebecca. As in ‘not us.’

The Catholic Church does not force all its members to conform to some righteous idea of white middle class American culture. We don’t teach that if you achieve this goal it means God has blessed you.
Many Catholics around the world retain their cultures. So yes indeed, we do celebrate the diversity within the Church, we don’t try to smother it out.

“Diversity” is SUCH a nice word for ‘segregation,’ isn’t it?

Lay off what, your continued twisting of facts to suit your goal of slandering Catholics and the Catholic Church? I DON’T THINK SO!

Rebecca, I haven’t slandared the church at all, and you know it. Everything I claim the church did, it did. I proved it from your own history and your own publications…and please note: I do not mention the facts that you dislike seeing in order to attack your faith, but rather to defend against attacks upon mine. If you don’t slandar my church, I will not bring up uncomfortable facts about yours…

The thing is, Rebecca, the Catholic church HAS done very well in the realm of race relations. Y’all should be commended, not criticized, for the advances you have made, and I have done exactly that–and I do not mention your past unless you become hypocritical and criticise mine, when yours is worse.

…and it IS worse. Much worse. You should not be ashamed of it, but rather celebrate the steps you have taken to overcome it. Everyone should celebrate with you, and work with you to advance further.

What I will not allow you to do, though, is to claim that a priesthood ban on our part (short lived as it was…and in comparison to the time the Catholic church has been around, 150 years is indeed short lived) and reversed on one summer morning, proves that our faith is false. Every time you do that, I will remind you that if a priesthood ban on our part proves that WE are false and evil, how much more does a past that commanded and encouraged the enslavement of millions prove that YOUR church is false, and evil to a far greater degree?

Don’t blame me for that; you are the one setting the parameters.

But go ahead, Rebecca; I gave you all the cites and all the references. Have I misrepresented a single thing that the church (and the Popes I referenced) did?

One last thing…I have not made the claim that the racist past of the Catholic church proves it to be wrong, though perhaps I could in a way. After all, God didn’t let US get away with being racist for 1500-2000 years, did He?

 

[dianaiad]

Your avoiding the question.

I don’t see how.

Bringham Young was the prophet and First President of the LDS church. Right?
How is it he said that the priesthood would be denied to the Negro until after the decendents of Abel had recieved the priesthood. Dead Last Right?

How is it today, your white colored son’s are still recieving the priesthood?

Actually, sir, my sons, though mostly ‘white,’ are still able to check the ‘African American’ box. They are what used to be termed "octoroons,’ like Plessey.

LDS author John Lewis Lund wrote in 1967 “Brigham Young revealed that the negro will not receive the Priesthood until a great while after the second coming of Jesus Christ, whose coming will usher in a millennium of peace”.[41]

He was wrong about that, obviously.

I know that John Lewis Lund doesn’t speak for the LDS church, I am only reflecting what some LDS thought of the lifting of the priesthood ban.

It is eye opening that all these “opinions” made by these modern day prophets made there way into the everyday temple practices, sealings and endowments, yet we are suppose to believe they weren’t church doctrine.

No? Yet several Popes made statements that affected the church greatly in terms of sending armies, of buying and selling human beings in slave markets, in making captives to convert them…and yet I am not supposed to believe that THIS sort of thing was church doctrine.

You do not get to use a standard of church doctrine that WE do not use.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Problems with race, Rebecca. The Catholics still have race relation problems.

All people do, Mormon institutionalized it.

Of course you don’t. There is nothing you CAN say.

Refuting a pure fantasy as though it had merit? How about you tell me about your convictions that the moon that is made of cheese and ask me to say something about that?

Ridiculous statements that don’t need to be corrected by me. All you have to do is pick up a book learn something.

By whom? the WHITE nuns don’t have that problem, Rebecca.

Why is this Diana? Are the white nuns from a pagan culture that accepts the sort of behavior the priests were foisting on the black nuns who were?

This is your interpretation. Like mormons do with scripture, you read into it things that are not there.

“Diversity” is SUCH a nice word for ‘segregation,’ isn’t it?

And here I thought you were capable of an intelligent conversation.

Rebecca, I haven’t slandared the church at all, and you know it. Everything I claim the church did, it did. I proved it from your own history and your own publications…and please note: I do not mention the facts that you dislike seeing in order to attack your faith, but rather to defend against attacks upon mine. If you don’t slandar my church, I will not bring up uncomfortable facts about yours…

I don’t care what you bring up Diana.

The thing is, Rebecca, the Catholic church HAS done very well in the realm of race relations. Y’all should be commended, not criticized, for the advances you have made, and I have done exactly that–and I do not mention your past unless you become hypocritical and criticise mine, when yours is worse.

I will and do criticize your church Diana. I know what it taught ME. I know exactly how racist it is because I lived in it, was taught it, and rejected it. You can try to gloss over this all you like, the fact remains, racism was institutionalized in the mormon church. Right down to where your church taught for a very long time that a caste system based on the inferiority of races was designed by God. A divine order to creation. You cannot jetison this as though it were a passing thought by one or two people

…and it IS worse. Much worse. You should not be ashamed of it, but rather celebrate the steps you have taken to overcome it. Everyone should celebrate with you, and work with you to advance further.

The most bizarre thing you have ever written.

What I will not allow you to do, though, is to claim that a priesthood ban on our part (short lived as it was…and in comparison to the time the Catholic church has been around, 150 years is indeed short lived) and reversed on one summer morning, proves that our faith is false. Every time you do that, I will remind you that if a priesthood ban on our part proves that WE are false and evil, how much more does a past that commanded and encouraged the enslavement of millions prove that YOUR church is false, and evil to a far greater degree?

Diana, I don’t believe the sins of individuals proves a church false. If I did, I would still be an atheist.

What I don’t believe for one moment is God ever “ordained” that people were created a certain color because of what they chose in a pre-existence. Or that these same people cannot be with GOD in heaven but are rather servants for white people who become a god.

Your church taught this. I was taught this. Mormons believed it until one day in 1978 your church said, never mind! I remember that day very well myself. And I remember how it was a happy day. You know why, because evil was lifted. And yes, this move was a very good thing.

Don’t blame me for that; you are the one setting the parameters.

I have set nothing. I give you facts from your church. From my own experience. You hope to wash them away with Catholic history. How about you own your own freaking history?

But go ahead, Rebecca; I gave you all the cites and all the references. Have I misrepresented a single thing that the church (and the Popes I referenced) did?

One last thing…I have not made the claim that the racist past of the Catholic church proves it to be wrong, though perhaps I could in a way. After all, God didn’t let US get away with being racist for 1500-2000 years, did He?

God has allowed your false religion to exist. So what is your point?

 

[dianaiad]

All people do, Mormon institutionalized it.

Refuting a pure fantasy as though it had merit? How about you tell me about your convictions that the moon that is made of cheese and ask me to say something about that?

Ridiculous statements that don’t need to be corrected by me. All you have to do is pick up a book learn something.

If it is so ridiculous, you should be able to refute it. You DO realize that ‘appeal to ridicule’ is a logical fallacy, right? Where ARE all these complaints of current LDS racist policies that make my statement so ridiculous? Come up with one or two, eh? G’head, the internet is right there…

As for me, every search I have made with “mormon” and “racism” as search terms comes up with some version of 'yeah, they accept black people NOW, but back before 1978…"

Why is this Diana? Are the white nuns from a pagan culture that accepts the sort of behavior the priests were foisting on the black nuns who were?

a ‘pagan culture?’ HOW long as the church been in South Africa, Rebecca? ALL of these people were born and raised Catholic, as were their parents…c’mon. If they were taught to expect such treatment from priests, who taught them?

This is your interpretation. Like mormons do with scripture, you read into it things that are not there.

There’s that appeal to ridicule again. Would you tell me how ‘diversity’ is served when all the people of one race or culture are shunted aside to worship in their own congregations, where nobody else is going to get to participate in that culture? "Diversity’ means INCLUSION, not exclusion.

I don’t care what you bring up Diana.

Obviously you do…or you wouldn’t be responding to me.

I will and do criticize your church Diana. I know what it taught ME. I know exactly how racist it is because I lived in it, was taught it, and rejected it. You can try to gloss over this all you like, the fact remains, racism was institutionalized in the mormon church. Right down to where your church taught for a very long time that a caste system based on the inferiority of races was designed by God. A divine order to creation. You cannot jetison this as though it were a passing thought by one or two people

Why not? You are jettisoning two thousand years of racism, slavery and oppression for very similar reasons…and I am not denying that the church DID have a racist policy, y’know, the way you are denying the history of Catholic racism. I am simply telling you that since Catholicism WAS racist, and was racist for so very long–and was guilty of so much worse oppression as a result than Mormons ever were, that your claim that Mormonism is false because of that is truly a dumb thing for a Catholic to claim; because if our racist past makes us ‘untrue,’ then what does YOUR racist past make Catholicism?

Double standards have always annoyed me.

The most bizarre thing you have ever written.

Interesting…a compliment to the way the Catholic church is overcoming it’s race problems is 'bizarre?"

Diana, I don’t believe the sins of individuals proves a church false. If I did, I would still be an atheist.

Then you can’t believe that the sins of individuals in OTHER churches prove them false, either.

What I don’t believe for one moment is God ever “ordained” that people were created a certain color because of what they chose in a pre-existence. Or that these same people cannot be with GOD in heaven but are rather servants for white people who become a god.

would you care to point out where this is Mormon doctrine?

Your church taught this.

YOUR church taught that black men were inferior because they were the descendents of Ham, and YOUR church taught that they should be enslaved…

I was taught this. Mormons believed it until one day in 1978 your church said, never mind! I remember that day very well myself. And I remember how it was a happy day. You know why, because evil was lifted. And yes, this move was a very good thing.

In other words, unlike with Catholicism, God did not allow Mormons to keep its racist policy for well over a millenium.

** **I have set nothing. I give you facts from your church. From my own experience. You hope to wash them away with Catholic history. How about you own your own freaking history?

Rebecca, I’m not denying that there was a priesthood ban. Never did. You are the one who has been denying the racist history of the Catholic faith.

God has allowed your false religion to exist. So what is your point?

Well, my point is…evidently He has NOT allowed us to remain racist. Yet for some reason He has allowed you guys to be so, and to remain so for ELEVEN TIMES LONGER than He allowed us to. That’s something to think about.

 

[Stephen168]

But the thread is about the racist policy held by the Mormon Church, in total, completely around the world, all of it, everywhere, without exception anywhere in the world, to not let *black men hold their #priesthood. A racist policy which was a reflection of 19th century **America from which that church ***came. The fact Mormonism held this policy against members of its own church is just another example of the Mormon Church being a man made invention of Joseph Smith. Now they have declared the unborn as second class humanity able to be murdered. Still a man made religion.

For the colloquially challenged
*black-people of African decent
**American- the United States of America
***came- originate for the first time
#priesthood (Mormon priesthood) -an invention of Joseph Smith

 

[Jerusha]

There’s that appeal to ridicule again. Would you tell me how ‘diversity’ is served when all the people of one race or culture are shunted aside to worship in their own congregations, where nobody else is going to get to participate in that culture? "Diversity’ means INCLUSION, not exclusion.

If people are ALLOWED to have parishes which recognize their cultural uniqueness, and they want to preserve their cultural uniqueness, it is not segregation. It celebrates diversity, because ANYONE can attend. Your culture, however, puts everyone into a pressure cooker, acculturating everyone to one culture. That is not a celebration of diversity. That is assimilation without accommodation.

And sometimes it doesn’t work. Take a look at the troubles of Samoan LDS who have moved to Utah, expecting to be fully accepted, with the streets paved with gold.

 

[RebeccaJ]

If it is so ridiculous, you should be able to refute it. You DO realize that ‘appeal to ridicule’ is a logical fallacy, right? Where ARE all these complaints of current LDS racist policies that make my statement so ridiculous? Come up with one or two, eh? G’head, the internet is right there…

Does your church teach their priesthood ban was every wrong, today? No. Here is what your church teaches, TODAY:

“From the dispensation of Adam until the dispensation of the fulness of times, there has been a group of people who have not been allowed to hold the priesthood of God. The scriptural basis for this policy is Abraham 1:21–27 . The full reason for the denial has been kept hidden by the Lord, and one is left to assume that He will make it known in His own due time.”

Which, this “reason unknown” you know very well is BS. Here are the reasons your so-called PROPHETS taught to mormons:

“You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind.
The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings.
This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race–that they should be the “servant of servants;” and they will be, until that curse is removed.”
Brigham Young-President and second ‘Prophet’ of the Mormon Church, 1844-1877- Extract from Journal of Discourses.

some version of 'yeah, they accept black people NOW, but back before 1978…"

How about you believe this ban was given by God? Still. Today. Your church teaches a person can be, and was, denied all God has to give because of the color of their skin.

Catholic forced conversions were bad, yes they were, but at least the idea behind them is that the people deserved all God has to give them. NOT that they should be denied anything from God.

You have mormons in the past two days telling us God designed this. STILL you are telling us this.

Let me know when your church decides they were/are wrong.

a ‘pagan culture?’ HOW long as the church been in South Africa, Rebecca? ALL of these people were born and raised Catholic, as were their parents…c’mon. If they were taught to expect such treatment from priests, who taught them?

Diana, I’m still waiting for you to show me Church teaching, something from a Pope, or a Bishop, that instructed these priests to behave as they did.

Oh, you can’t, because all you can find is a teaching that priests are to be celibate. All persons have a dignity coming from God, and rape is a crime.

I see…moving the goalposts again, are you? The Catholic Church was not racist or discriminatory unless the targets were actually black people of African descent? A Pope telling nations that they could conquer and enslave entire nations makes it OK with you as long as the word used is ‘pagan,’ not 'colored?"

Pagan does not equal race now, does it? You seem to keep forgetting this FACT that racism, as we are discussing, is a 17th century invention. A Papal bull from the fifteen hundreds has no societal belief behind it that race was the reason for a person to be enslaved. Pagan, as I said, and no I don’t believe this was right.

Aren’t you the one who defends Smith marrying teenage girls by saying you can’t apply today’s standards to another time? Well. I see this only applies when it is convenient for you.

(continued…)