Where can I find the Mormon teaching on Africans being fallen Angels?

[RebeccaJ]

There’s that appeal to ridicule again. Would you tell me how ‘diversity’ is served when all the people of one race or culture are shunted aside to worship in their own congregations, where nobody else is going to get to participate in that culture? "Diversity’ means INCLUSION, not exclusion.

No Diana, if you can’t discuss things like race intelligently, without throwing out social buzz words that are meant solely for effect…no, this is not an intelligent conversation.

The Church provides for people what they need. Salt Lake has a large immigrant population, you seem to think it is wrong to provide a Mass in Spanish. Perhaps you can tell your Spanish wards that exist here that they should stop segregating.

Obviously you do…or you wouldn’t be responding to me.

I’m responding for one purpose and one purpose only. So people reading now or at another date have something that counters your BS.

Why not? You are jettisoning two thousand years of racism, slavery and oppression for very similar reasons…and I am not denying that the church DID have a racist policy, y’know, the way you are denying the history of Catholic racism. I am simply telling you that since Catholicism WAS racist, and was racist for so very long–and was guilty of so much worse oppression as a result than Mormons ever were, that your claim that Mormonism is false because of that is truly a dumb thing for a Catholic to claim; because if our racist past makes us ‘untrue,’ then what does YOUR racist past make Catholicism?

You deny the reasons these policies of your church existed. You pretend that it “isn’t known”. You must realize, you are lying to yourself and others here.

Double standards have always annoyed me.

Well, stop looking for ways to create a double standard where there is none.

Interesting…a compliment to the way the Catholic church is overcoming it’s race problems is 'bizarre?"

It is a passive agressive thing. Like some of my relatives, something like, “My that is a beautiful dress. Too bad it doesn’t fit.”

Then you can’t believe that the sins of individuals in OTHER churches prove them false, either.

There is individual sin, and there is institutionalized claims that come from God.

would you care to point out where this is Mormon doctrine?

Would you care to stop pretending that what your church teaches as doctrine today, isn’t opinion tomorrow?

In other words, unlike with Catholicism, God did not allow Mormons to keep its racist policy for well over a millenium.

Diana, you think God did one thing for Mormons and not another for Catholics? You ignore the history of the entire American Civil rights movement. Catholics were ordaining priests BEFORE this movement. It took American sentiment and criticism for your church to wake up and make a change.

I see God bringing all to him. Mormons resisted longer than Catholics, and a lot of other people. And I mean longer as, a real historical timeline. Not this make believe thing you have going where 1978 is the same as 1578.

Rebecca, I’m not denying that there was a priesthood ban. Never did.

You deny the reasons your church taught for this ban existing.

You are the one who has been denying the racist history of the Catholic faith.

No, I deny that everything you bring up is race based. I also deny the Church teaches the racism today that is in your church. You think priests who commit sexual crimes in Africa are obeying church teaching? No, they are not. I do not defend the behavior of these priests. I believe they should be laicized and tried in a court.

Mormons who were not ordaining African men to their priesthood until 1978, were obeying your church’s teachings. You defend this teaching today.

Well, my point is…evidently He has NOT allowed us to remain racist. Yet for some reason He has allowed you guys to be so, and to remain so for ELEVEN TIMES LONGER than He allowed us to. That’s something to think about.

Yeah, you tell yourself this, while you defend a racist policy, and Mormons here continue to tell us it was God’s will.

 

[4EverHis]

There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient; more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there [pre-existence] received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less. . . . There were no neutrals in the war in Heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan. Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body. The Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:61, 65-66; emphasis added).

wow…

that’s …um…



I’m not going to comment on the race issue cause that’s just wrong.
But also what about people who were born really poor, homeless, etc, here on earth?? (of whatever race) …is that because they were “unfaithful” before?
Yet Christ said…those who are last, would be first…and those who are first, would be last. The Mormon church thus goes against Christ’s words…
when He helped the lepers and other “disadvantaged” people He didn’t treat them like they were lesser spiritually… quite the contrary.

 

[why_me]

The catholic church, the lds church and the protestant churches had racist policies. End of story. But so did the branches of Islam. For catholics to call the mormon church racist without seeing the problems of racism in the catholic church is hypocritical.

This thread has become sort of a joke now with Dianaid out shining most catholic posters as she defends the lds church. The catholics need to give it up.

 

[TheosisM]

The catholic church, the lds church and the protestant churches had racist policies. End of story. But so did the branches of Islam. For catholics to call the mormon church racist without seeing the problems of racism in the catholic church is hypocritical.

This thread has become sort of a joke now with Dianaid out shining most catholic posters as she defends the lds church. The catholics need to give it up.

never gets old.

 

[4EverHis]

Negroes in this life are denied the Priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty… The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them. Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned. . . . (Mormon Doctrine, 477, 527-28; 1966 orig. ed.).

 

[hosemonkey]

Gee, I wonder what y’all would say if Pres. Monson actually DID apologize and say that the priesthood ban was a complete misinterpretation of scripture and thought, and that God allowed it only until the members of the church got their act together enough to accept the correction?

Gee, you mean God screwed it all up when He first revealed the doctrine of polygamy and suppression of Blacks and then had to come back and fix it all up later? Man, I’ll bet the ol’ “prophet” got a rocket over that one. You mean that he might have gotten it wrong? Just like Jesus Christ screwed up the organization and theology of His Church and you mormons had to come along 1400 years later and get everything back right again? 'Cause His Church, (that His Church, whom He had promised to be with untill the end of time) , had run off the road? Are you telling me that God is just a bumbler and Joseph Smith and his boys had to set Him straight. Wow!

Would it matter to anybody here, or would it simply cause a fresh spate of attacks and mockery?

Given that I already know the answer to that one, (and so do you…) then I fail to see why such a statement would do any good.

The present official position on this is…we don’t know why. Maybe it’s the reason I stated. Maybe it’s because–the people of black African descent finally reached the head of the line and it’s their turn…and possibly their turn more than that of anybody else. I dunno; lots of thoughts and speculation going on out there.

 

[4EverHis]

Cormaria,
Paul has given you some quotes, but please be aware that in 1978 and thereafter, Elder Bruce R. McConkie said that anything that had been said about Blacks by any LDS leader including him before 1978, should not be regarded as true and should be replaced with new understanding that had come by revelation through a living prophet. So since he said that and was very adamant about that, I hope you understand that the idea that it is a “Mormon teaching” is completely wrong. It is an opinion formerly given as an opinion by some then-prominent LDS leaders, who have since been proven completely wrong.

That is not a current “Mormon teaching” at all, nor was it ever correct doctrine.

Peace to you.

Hi ParkerD, I don’t really understand… weren’t these ideas before 1978 also called “revelation”? how do we know that the ideas that are being taught now won’t also be replaced with other ideas in the future? how can revelation contradict itself? I’m not trying to debate; honest question here…

God bless

 

[why_me]

never gets old.

It does get old. Catholics bring up a criticism of the lds church. The lds respond showing related problems in the catholic church and its teachings. The catholics still hammer on and on and the lds defend their church and bring up information showing the catholic church in a similiar light, in this case in regards to racism.

Much better to keep the skeletons quiet.

 

[twopekinguys]

never gets old.

I have to agree with you.

The good thing is, I can’t see his ludicrous comments unless somebody quotes them.

Ignore is such a nice feature.

 

[4EverHis]

The catholic church, the lds church and the protestant churches had racist policies. End of story. But so did the branches of Islam. For catholics to call the mormon church racist without seeing the problems of racism in the catholic church is hypocritical.

This thread has become sort of a joke now with Dianaid out shining most catholic posters as she defends the lds church. The catholics need to give it up.

the Catholic Church never proclaimed any racist doctrines. If there were racist Catholics it wasn’t because of Catholicism or our dogmas. the Mormon church however did have racist doctrines, as we can see here. That’s the difference. And it was taught as revelation from God.

 

[why_me]

Hi ParkerD, I don’t really understand… weren’t these ideas before 1978 also called “revelation”? how do we know that the ideas that are being taught now won’t also be replaced with other ideas in the future? how can revelation contradict itself? I’m not trying to debate; honest question here…

God bless

No, it wasn’t revelation. Not every thing that comes out of an lds prophet’s mouth is revelation. And it is here that we have the problem. Critics, such as the antimormon catholics on this board, love to quote from the journal of discourses of Brigham Young. Brigham said a lot of things. And not all was revelation. There are volumes and volumes of his reported speeches published by the lds church. He also said many wonderful things too.

Lets look at it this way: We have very little from Saint Paul. We have some letters and epistles. But I know he must have said much more than what we have in the bible. Where is it? I think that we would be surprised just what paul may have said that was not included in the new testament or just lost to the wind.

 

[why_me]

the Catholic Church never proclaimed any racist doctrines. If there were racist Catholics it wasn’t because of Catholicism or our dogmas. the Mormon church however did have racist doctrines, as we can see here. That’s the difference. And it was taught as revelation from God.

I think that if you will read this thread, you will get a different picture. In fact, on the Intelligence Squared debate, it was brought up that catholic church supported slavery. You can find it here: intelligencesquared.com/past-events.php?event=EVT0195

Most people present during the debate believed that the catholic church was not a force for good in the world. For the motion: The catholic church is a force for good in the world, 1862 said no and only 268 favored the motion. Why? 1862 people present said no to the motion and that is quite a lot.

Here is the briefing booklet:
intelligencesquared.com/briefings/iq2-briefing-the-catholic-church.pdf

 

[Rocket_Man]

Brigham said a lot of things. And not all was revelation.

How is it then what BY said became everyday practice in the temple? - endowment and sealings ban for Negros.

And comparing the Mormon doctrine to other racism in other churchs doesn’t line up. Because all the others church’s were considered to be apostate through the revelation given to Joseph Smith in the “First Vision”. Isn’t this question the reason he went into the woods to pray and recieve the answer?

I thought the LDS church was suppose to be the “True Church” and “A Beacon of Light” and holder of the “Restored Gospel” and all that. It’s suppose to be a cut above all the other apostate churches… I don’t know why you even would to say you were just like all the other faiths at that time other than to come up with another excuse.

 

[higherednerd]

Even those who imagine themselves to be the special recipients of spirtual light are still men and women of their time, place, and culture. Nowadays we can easily see the fallacy of drawing a direct line from Cain and Ham to west Africa (where the slaves came from) (and to nowhere else!). But it seemed esoteric and deep at the time… And, a large percentage of westerners believed it, or at least wondered if it might be true.

 

[TheosisM]

I’m curious, how does this statement relate to the words of Mormon prophets?

“In addition to these four books of scripture, the inspired words of our living prophets become scripture to us. Their words come to us through conferences, the Liahona or Ensign magazine, and instructions to local priesthood leaders. “We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God” (Articles of Faith 1:9).”

-Gospel Principles, Chapter 10-Scripture

 

[hosemonkey]

why me;:

                                                      Quote:
                                                                  Originally Posted by **4EverHis**                     [forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=5917163#post5917163)                 
             ***the Catholic Church never proclaimed any racist doctrines. If there were racist Catholics it wasn't because of Catholicism*** or our dogmas. **the Mormon church however did have racist doctrines, as we can see here. That's the difference. And it was taught as revelation from God.**

I think that if you will read this thread, you will get a different picture. In fact, on the Intelligence Squared debate, it was brought up that catholic church supported slavery. You can find it here: intelligencesquared.com/p…?event=EVT0195

Most people present during the debate believed that the catholic church was not a force for good in the world. For the motion: The catholic church is a force for good in the world, 1862 said no and only 268 favored the motion. Why? 1862 people present said no to the motion and that is quite a lot.

In spite of WhyMe’s frequent claim that he is (sometimes)Catholic, he does not understand that there is a difference between “Doctrine” and “practice.” Doctrine is the unchanging belief of the Church. Practice is changable and transient. The Catholic Church has never pronounced doctrinally on the practice of slavery. Never. The practices of times past have changed and the Church has changed with them. The suppression of Blacks was a doctrine of the mormon organization. (Although defining mormon doctrine is like trying to nail Jell-o to the wall.) It was a DOCTRINE of the mormon organization until 1978, when a “revelation” changed the policy.
Thank goodness for those “revelations”, they can get you into jams and get you out of them, too.
Sorry WhyMe, I forgot that you converted to the Church of Happy-Go-Lucky. So, just a question…Are you triple-rite now or does Happy-Go-Lucky not count? Just wondered.

 

[dianaiad]

If people are ALLOWED to have parishes which recognize their cultural uniqueness, and they want to preserve their cultural uniqueness, it is not segregation.

I see. They wouldn’t WANT to worship with the white folks, would they…it would make them uncomfortable? Is that it? Jerusha, most of the all black congregations are all black because when they were first formed, they were told that this is the only place they could go. What I would like to know is…an African American is an American. The culture is American…and because it is, it is a culture that should be comfortable with all Americans. At this point there is no ‘Irish American’ separate culture that would demand that all Irish worship together in a separate congregation. There is no “German American” culture that demands the same–no "Dutch American,’ or "French American,’ Or "British American’ culture that demands separate worship spaces: we all celebrate St. Patrick’s Day, and we all have Christmas trees, and we all hang the holly and the mistletoe–and we all like hot dogs, gyros and “My Big Fat Greek Wedding.” We carry our traditions, and we SHARE them.

But black congregations do not. Why? Why do they have completely separate cultures, with a separate dialect and accent (because many of them most definitely do.)

Here’s the thing; “they” may want to stay in segregated congregations. That doesn’t mean that thier congregations are any less segregated.

It celebrates diversity, because ANYONE can attend

]

but they don’t though, do they?

. Your culture, however, puts everyone into a pressure cooker, acculturating everyone to one culture. That is not a celebration of diversity. That is assimilation without accommodation.

"my culture’ does that, does it?

Jerusha, there is a reason that Utah culture has a separate ‘feel’ to it, and it is the same reason that black congregations do. We were shunted aside and thrown out very early on; it is YOU who will not see any postives in OUR culture; segregation again. How ironic that you are talking about how our culture isn’t inclusive or diverse enough–even as you defend the idea of another culture failing to be inclusive or diverse.

I guess it depends upon which culture hits the politically correct button, doesn’t it?

And sometimes it doesn’t work. Take a look at the troubles of Samoan LDS who have moved to Utah, expecting to be fully accepted, with the streets paved with gold.

 

[dianaiad]

Hi ParkerD, I don’t really understand… weren’t these ideas before 1978 also called “revelation”?

nope.

Unless you can find them in some book of scripture that we accept as such?

how do we know that the ideas that are being taught now won’t also be replaced with other ideas in the future? how can revelation contradict itself? I’m not trying to debate; honest question here…

God bless

The problem here is that you don’t seem to get the distinction between out and out revelation for us (that is, that which is canonized) and the (perhaps inspired) teachings of the man. As a Catholic, you are supposed to understand the concept of Infallibility…use that idea.

And then realize that YOU do not get to decide for us what WE must accept as scripture.

 

[Stephen168]

If people are ALLOWED to have parishes which recognize their cultural uniqueness, and they want to preserve their cultural uniqueness, it is not segregation. It celebrates diversity, because ANYONE can attend. Your culture, however, puts everyone into a pressure cooker, acculturating everyone to one culture. That is not a celebration of diversity. That is assimilation without accommodation.

And sometimes it doesn’t work. Take a look at the troubles of Samoan LDS who have moved to Utah, expecting to be fully accepted, with the streets paved with gold.

Yes, back in the day people picked their parish by their nationality. I guess Mormons aren’t allowed that freedom.
thefloridacatholic.org/cns/2009_articles/20090327_cns_african_catholics_3.php

msa.md.gov/msa/refserv/html/catholic.html
stmarys-sacramento.com/st-marys-parish-since-1906/

 

[Rocket_Man]

(that is, that which is canonized) and the (perhaps inspired) teachings of the man.And then realize that YOU do not get to decide for us what WE must accept as scripture.

If the teaching was wrong, it can not be inspired, because God cannot lie. So either it is inspired or it isn’t, there’s nothing half inspired. Many times BY and others claimed the priesthood ban was God breathed. So either they lied, God lied, or those like Bruce R. McConkie lied when he told everyone that they spoke with limited understanding.