Where can I find the Mormon teaching on Africans being fallen Angels?

[ParkerD]

I agree those blessings spoken of by the previous posters are valid and recognized by God. I never said they were not valid. Your original post held a tinge of the specialness of having the priesthood of God and the ability to perform ordinances in your home; you then asked how many lifelong Catholics had enjoyed such blessings in their lives. This spoken with the pretense that they more than likely wouldn’t have had such blessings, giving you the opportunity to illustrate how Catholics don’t really understand the Priesthood.

Interesting about your wife and the oil, but saying a prayer and performing a priesthood ordinance are two different things. I asked if she had performed and ordinance while stating the authority it was to be given under.
Interesting that she would anoint, and seal an anointing while laying on her hands proclaiming the authority of the priesthood, that is what you are implying when you state “She also has held her arm in an authoritative manner and done what needed to be done and said what needed to be said, with authority.” Not sure how that fits within LDS church procedure regarding the Priesthood and the procedure with ordinances. I mean if she were to do that shy couldn’t single Mothers with in the Faith hold the priesthood to do such things? LDS Women who had their husbands divorce them or leave, they cannot with any such authority “Bless” their children, or anoint and seal the anointing, and they must depend on the Priesthood holders with in their respective Wards and extended families. Not so sure your wife, according to procedure in officiating the priesthood has the authority to lay on hands, proclaim authority and anoint with oil. If she were to have that right, why then could a single Woman who is also a member not be able to do the same thing? Blessing that is, not a prayer, you seem to get a little fuzzy when differentiating on the two.
I am well aware of J.F. Smith’s mother and the story of the Ox, however placing the oil on one’s head and pronouncing a Prayer is different from a Priesthood blessing as I stated above and as you well know.
Catholics definition of a blessing is different from that of a Mormon’s. Mormons believe in the laying on of hands, only by someone with authority to do such. They have to have the priesthood authority to perform these ordinances they cannot if they are merely a “member”.
"Catholics believe not only in a ministerial/sacerdotal priesthood, but a “common priesthood of the faithful” Man, Woman, BLACK, or White.

Kdesiel,
You seem to have second-guessed why I asked the question I asked. I had no idea of what the response would be, and sincerely wanted to know. I was glad I asked the question, and grateful to read the responses. I gained a perspective from that.

I didn’t say my wife sealed an anointing. There are other kinds of uses of the priesthood and uses of authority than giving blessings of healing.

A single mother can “bless” her child in a similar way to that described by those Catholics I quoted. Just because there is also an anointing kind of blessing does not mean she cannot “bless” her child, whether for illness or for other reasons. So could a father or mother who doesn’t hold the “priesthood”.

The faith of the giver and of the receiver of a blessing are just as important or more important than the “priesthood”. Faith in Jesus Christ provides an energy source in and of itself, and can be the means of energy transfer from one person to another with all the power of healing in that energy transfer. The body will be attuned to that–the cells of the body will be attuned to that–the systems of the body will be attuned to that. Blacks at any time in history could exercise that kind of faith if they believed in Jesus Christ.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Kdesiel,
Here were some of the quotes of those I was responding to:

“When I was growing up my mother would bless me and my brothers and sisters after our prayers at bedtime.” (Zaffiroborant)

"Some Catholic families keep a font with Holy water near the front door of their home.

I don’t ask out of sense of one-upmanship. I just want you to realize that all faithful are made worthy of the promises of Christ. Male, female, black or white. This is the Truth that is given to all, through the Love of God." (Rebecca J)

"Catholics believe not only in a ministerial/sacerdotal priesthood, but a “common priesthood of the faithful” as well. Therefore, it is quite common for Catholic parents to bless their children and spouse. Frequently, this is done through prayer and the sprinkling or anointing with holy water (many parishes have a place where you can obtain holy water to take home). My own father did this many times, and I plan on doing that as well with my family (though I am being called to the diaconate, so obviously the scope of who and what deacons (and priests and bishops) can bless is different).

Catholics frequently will use their own words to impart blessings,…" (TheosisM)

“I give my son, daughter in law, and my grandson a blessing everytime I see them.” (Twopekinguys)

Please understand that I think those blessings are earnestly given and completely recognized by God as well as by the body of the person receiving the blessing, meaning there is an energy transfer from the giver to the receiver.

My wife has placed consecrated oil on the head of a sick child when I wasn’t home and it was late at night. Then she prayed for God’s blessing through the authority of the priesthood. She also has authority as a mother, period. She can place her hand on a part of the body of her child in a way of comforting and healing and love, and say a prayer in behalf of that child.

She also has held her arm in an authoritative manner and done what needed to be done and said what needed to be said, with authority.

You may also be familiar with the case of the mother of Joseph F. Smith, who was the widow of Hyrum Smith. She anointed an ox that had lain down as if dead, and pronounced a blessing of healing on the ox, and it got up and continued on the journey west. Great real-life experience, that:thumbsup:

ParkerD, please realize the things you quoted above are descriptions of the laity using the priesthood. Christ is our High Priest, our only High Priest, we all share in His Priesthood.

 

[Stephen168]

That is what the thread is about. The racist policy held by the Mormon Church, in total, completely around the world, all of it, everywhere, without exception anywhere in the world, to not let black men hold their priesthood. A racist policy which was a reflection of 19th century America from which that church came.

 

[twopekinguys]

It is horrible. The notion that you wouldn’t be able to partake in the all of the Blessings of holding the Priesthood, being able to perform Blessings on your own family, being able to excersise that Priesthood to its full extent due to the color of your skin.
Think of the members who prior to 1978 which were black, believed in the Mormon church and had to accept their 2nd class status not only in the “world” but spiritually as well?
LDS should just own up to the fact it was a false and racist doctrine implimented by biggoted leaders, who seem to only dislike the Black peoples of the world…at least until 1978 of course.

Here is a perfect example of what you are talking about. Eternal slavery sanctioned by the lds leadership. It is part of the story of Jane Elizabeth Manning James, a black lady that was sealed to the Smiths for eternity as a sevant.

"After Isaac died in 1891, Jane asked that she and her family be given the ordination of adoption so that they could be sealed in that manner. Her justification, according to her correspondence with church leaders, was that Emma Smith had offered to have her sealed to the Smith family as a child. She was now reconsidering her decision, and asked to be sealed to the Smiths.

Her request was refused. Instead, the First Presidency “decided she might be adopted into the family of Joseph Smith as a servant, which was done, a special ceremony having been prepared for the purpose.”[1] The ceremony took place on May 18, 1894 with Joseph F Smith acting as proxy.[2]

The minutes of the Council of Twelve Apostles reflect that Jane was dissatisfied with that decision, and applied again to obtain the sealing that was offered to her by Emma, but was again refused.

Church leadership subsequently revoked her temple ordinances and blessings on August 22, 1895, due to her “negro blood”. But reinstated the sealing — along with her servant status — in 1902 (Bathsheba Smith acting as proxy"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Elizabeth_Manning_James

 

[why_me]

That is what the thread is about. The racist policy held by the Mormon Church, in total, completely around the world, all of it, everywhere, without exception anywhere in the world, to not let black men hold their priesthood. A racist policy which was a reflection of 19th century America from which that church came.

Actually, it is about disparaging the lds church by bringing up the past and make it into the present. No christian church is blameless. As Dianaid has pointed out, the catholic church has skeletons in its closet over slavery. And of course, protestantism is certainly not blameless also. This whole thread makes me laugh. Such self-righteous catholics playing high and mighty toward mormons when in their closet are some humdingers.

However, lets look at the lds church today. It is a beautiful church filled with beautiful people of all colors. It is truly a rainbow church. Blacks were never excluded from membership in the lds church. They attended the services and were treated with respect. I know because I remember the policy before 1978.

Here is a wonderful site: ldsgenesisgroup.org/

ldsgenesisgroup.org/templetour.html

The Catholic visitors arrived a day after the Muslim group, but followed the same basic itinerary.

Guide Daniel Schlyter, right, helps Alexei Smith find ancestors as other Catholic leaders, from left, William Connor, Cambria Smith and Alfred Baca watch. Photo by Greg Hill, Church News.

One of the highlights shared by the Catholic leaders was the discovery by the Rt. Rev. Alexei Smith of some of his Polish ancestors during a tour of the Family History Center. Tour guide Daniel Schlyter sat with him at the computer in his search. The Rev. Smith is the ecumenical and interfaith director of the Archdiocese of Los Angeles Roman Catholic Church and pastor of the Russian Greek Catholic Church in El Segundo, Calif.

After a visit to BYU, the Rev. Smith said, “We have never seen such a large group of modestly groomed and dressed young people. Not one person was scantily attired or wearing revealing clothing. They were all clean and well-groomed.”

The Rev. Alfred S. Baca is Episcopal Vicar for Ecumenism and Interreligion for the Roman Catholic Diocese of Orange County, Calif., and is pastor of St. Cecilia Church and School in Tustin, Calif. After touring Church facilities and the Museum of Church History and Art, he said, “I learned that stories are very important for Latter-day Saints—stories of family, faith and practice. We can learn much better, from stories, who we are and where we are going.Stories are important for Catholics, too. We have this in common.”

Cambria Smith, parish life director for Holy Family Parish in South Pasadena, Calif., told the Gillilands after visiting Church Welfare facilities, “This experience deepened my understanding and appreciation of your charitable works. I learned so much about your organizational structure and practices. I was so impressed to learn about the sacrifices you make for your church and especially for other people.”

Father William Connor of St. Joseph Catholic Church in Long Beach summed up to the Gillilands, “I am so grateful to have been invited here to Salt Lake. I have been amazed at the things I have learned about the LDS people. You are so service-oriented and practice living the covenants you have made. You try to live the principles of Christ’s gospel in your daily lives.”

Amazing just how the lds church and the catholic church are doing fine, except for some antimormon catholics on this section of the forum.

 

[why_me]

Church leadership subsequently revoked her temple ordinances and blessings on August 22, 1895, due to her “negro blood”. But reinstated the sealing — along with her servant status — in 1902 (Bathsheba Smith acting as proxy"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Elizabeth_Manning_James

I think that you need to get with the present and forget the past for now.

Listening to orientation during Muslim leaders’ tour of the Oquirrh Mountain Utah Temple are, from left, Steve F. Gilliland, Hussam Ayloush, Hedab El Tarifi, Judy Gilliland, Nancy and Kent P. Jackson, Shakeel Syed and Kalim Farooki. Photo by Mike Terry, Deseret News.

Joining the throngs of visitors to Temple Square were leaders of Muslim and Catholic faiths from Southern California, who were escorted by Steve and Judy Gilliland of the Church’s Los Angeles Public Affairs Council and hosted by Church public affairs in Salt Lake City.

*Overall impressions of their visit included a general admiration for the Church’s humanitarian services and the commitment of its members.*Brother and Sister Gilliland said the trip was planned to coincide with the open house of the Oquirrh Mountain Utah Temple so the visitors, after touring it, could have a deeper understanding of why members of the Church are so committed to faith, families and serving others.

“It gave them a better understanding of ‘why,’” Sister Gilliland said. She added, “We have great respect for the interfaith leaders [in Southern California].”

The two-day tour also included visits to BYU, Welfare Square and the LDS Humanitarian Center.

The visitors all said they enjoyed their time in Utah and were grateful for the kindness and hospitality of those they met.

“It has certainly been a very exciting and inspiring two days,” said Hussam Ayloush, executive director of the Southern California Chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations. “I will certainly go back to our Muslim community in the Los Angeles area and share the success story and achievement that I’ve noticed here.” He said he hopes that will solidify a partnership for good between the members of the two religions.

Of the commitment and faith he noticed, he said, “It reminds us that there are bigger things in life than our own selves, and that is to serve God. And we serve God by serving mankind. I certainly saw that in practice with every person we met here.”

Kalim Farooki, treasurer of the Shura Council of Southern California and chairman of the Islamic Society of Corona/Norco, said what he observed at Welfare Square and the LDS Humanitarian Center “shows the result of teamwork, commitment and organization.”

The commitment of volunteers also impressed him. He said, “When I went to the [Oquirrh Mountain] temple, I noticed there were hundreds of volunteers. All knew what they were doing and had smiling faces.”
At the end of her visit, Hedab El Tarifi, vice chairwoman of the Muslim Public Affairs Council National Board of Directors and executive secretary of the Board of the Islamic Center of Southern California, said, “Now I can actually answer questions if I hear certain comments about the Mormons.” She said it would give her greater ability to defend the Church from attacks as she would hope its members would similarly defend her faith from attacks.

“I certainly appreciated the visit to the temple,” she said. "Not just the beautiful building itself, but understanding the spiritual activities and practices that the [members] do in the temple. To me, that was new knowledge."Shakeel Syed, executive director of the Islamic Shura Council of Southern California, spoke of the commitment of Church members in serving others. He said that welfare systems should be run as the Church runs its, “not in a patronizing way, but in the spirit of serving people in humility and with grace.”]

ldsgenesisgroup.org/templetour.html

 

[NewSeeker]

Actually, it is about disparaging the lds church by bringing up the past and make it into the present. No christian church is blameless. As Dianaid has pointed out, the catholic church has skeletons in its closet over slavery

The issue isn’t which church has more skeletons. The Catholic Church has visited its past and rightly declared the darkest deeds to be the works of men. The Mormon Church still officially declares its darkest deed to be the work of God. That’s the issue, WhyMe. You and Dianaiad keep bringing up skeletons when they are completely irrelevant to the true issue.

 

[vickimonica]

Hi everyone!! You need to Google "Hot Mormon Muffins, and “Men on a Mission”. (they are calanders that a group of mormons just made). Obviously, these folks were not wearing their “Jesus Jammies”!!!

 

[Jerusha]

Catholic shortcomings are an open book. Mormon shortcomings are denied.

Humane treatment of slaves was taught in the Catholic Church. The only reasonable justification for slavery, according to Bartolome de las Casas, was intellectual subnormality, in that they needed supervision, productive work, and structure. He proved that Natives of the Americas were the intellectual equals of Europeans. He died regretting that he did not see need during the debate with Sepuveda (a bad guy of the Catholic Church) to also prove that Africans did not need to be taken care of.

Thomas Jefferson, who was familiar with de las Casa’s work, reflected that there is something about slavery that stunts intellectual growth. This reflection was probably part of his observations of the Hemmings family.

Assumption of subnormality is part and parcel of racism in the United States. Perhaps those who subscribe to this want a return to slavery, or social structures that imitate slavery. Part of this is the imposition of “slave religion” upon slaves. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy, that since people of color are God-ordained to a lower position in society, acceptance of this pleases God. Therefore racism becomes a virtue, rather than a sin. Mormonism is the epitome of “slave religion”.

Perhaps, Diana, you might reflect on this.

I saw your post yesterday, and let it ride, to see how others would deal with it. Seems that many Catholics have not dealt with the issue.

 

[Kdesiel]

The issue isn’t which church has more skeletons. The Catholic Church has visited its past and rightly declared the darkest deeds to be the works of men. The Mormon Church still officially declares its darkest deed to be the work of God. That’s the issue, WhyMe. You and Dianaiad keep bringing up skeletons when they are completely irrelevant to the true issue.

I agree. The Catholic Church was and is willing to look back in its long history and address its miss-deeds. It has recognized those deeds as things done by wicked men within the church, not as doctrine, or “Revelation” from God.
The Mormon Church’s M.O. is to brush these controversial issues under the proverbial carpet. The Church would rather not talk about these issues in hopes that through time these issues will fade away. To address these issues in the short term would be damaging to the Mormon Church and the image it has worked hard at established over the last decade or so. In the long term it would actually be better. It would be better for the LDS faith to just face facts, address these controversial issues such as the Racist Policy on the Priesthood, Polygamy, Blood Atonement and other teachings.
All Religions are guilty when it comes to racism, the Catholic Church is no exception, but as was stated earlier it was never taught as Gods Will to discriminate against Blacks whereas in the early Mormon church up until 1978 it was taught as Gods Will that BLACK members could not, and should not be privy to FULL membership of the Church essentially denying BLACKS the FULL blessings of the church. Until the Mormons are willing to face this issue and address it without deflection, then it will always haunt them.
To simply say quit living in the past, and ignore past deeds and move on is ludicrous. Anyone not willing to learn their History is doomed to make the same mistakes. From my study while converting to Catholicism I found willingness from the Catholic Church to do just that. To address the mistakes of the past, learn, correct, and move on. The Mormon Church has never done that, and is not willing to do that. Try going to Sacrament and speaking on “Blood Atonement” or “Polygamy” or even the Priesthood ban on Blacks. Try giving your own opinions, the Bishop would instruct you to just let it go and not let it be a stumbling block to your salvation.

 

[hosemonkey]

I think that you need to get with the present and forget the past for now.

Listening to orientation during Muslim leaders’ tour of the Oquirrh Mountain Utah Temple are, from left, Steve F. Gilliland, Hussam Ayloush, Hedab El Tarifi, Judy Gilliland, Nancy and Kent P. Jackson, Shakeel Syed and Kalim Farooki. Photo by Mike Terry, Deseret News.
So, basically what we have here is a puff piece by one false religion stroking another false religion. Islam (the religion of peace, not) praising mormonism (the religion of racism) That makes for real credibility. BTW WhyMe, who founded your new religion, the Church of Happy -Go-Lucky? Was it Happy-Go-Lucky Himself?

 

[ParkerD]

Kdesiel,
You seem to have second-guessed why I asked the question I asked. I had no idea of what the response would be, and sincerely wanted to know. I was glad I asked the question, and grateful to read the responses. I gained a perspective from that.

I didn’t say my wife sealed an anointing. There are other kinds of uses of the priesthood and uses of authority than giving blessings of healing.

A single mother can “bless” her child in a similar way to that described by those Catholics I quoted. Just because there is also an anointing kind of blessing does not mean she cannot “bless” her child, whether for illness or for other reasons. So could a father or mother who doesn’t hold the “priesthood”.

The faith of the giver and of the receiver of a blessing are just as important or more important than the “priesthood”. Faith in Jesus Christ provides an energy source in and of itself, and can be the means of energy transfer from one person to another with all the power of healing in that energy transfer. The body will be attuned to that–the cells of the body will be attuned to that–the systems of the body will be attuned to that. Blacks at any time in history could exercise that kind of faith if they believed in Jesus Christ.

There is another issue that was not addressed within the discussion of this topic. It has to do with cultural norms that do not have the degree of marital fidelity and absolute chastity before marriage that can be found (and have been found) within certain cultures with more prevalence. Priesthood can and should only be used in righteousness, and implies righteous fathers within families that endure where the mother is cherished throughout the life of the father and the lives of the children, where children come home to two parents every day of their childhood lives unless the father is traveling on business. Micro-loans that have been successful in Africa are made to women, not men, and the women pay back the loans and are the micro-business success stories.

 

[PaulDupre]

Priesthood can and should only be used in righteousness, and implies righteous fathers within families that endure where the mother is cherished throughout the life of the father and the lives of the children, where children come home to two parents every day of their childhood lives unless the father is traveling on business.

And of course Christians cannot have righteous fathers and cherished wives, only Mormons have that.

Unfortunately the children of polygamous Mormon families came home to 20 or 30 parents. Most of them probably weren’t sure which mother was theirs. The father was spread so thin (and probably so tired and sore) that he could not give the children much time. Which wife is the father “cherishing” today?

You are aware, are you not, that all of the polygamous LDS prophets had a number of divorces? What say you of those “righteous fathers” and “cherished wives”? Do you really think your religion is “holier than thou”? You have all the same problems, but in rather sick and twisted conditions.

I know from sad experience, as a bishop’s counselor and home teacher, that modern LDS families have all the same problems as other families. Perhaps, due to pressure from their church and culture, they divorce less often, but they live the same lives of quiet desperation and misery that many other families live, due to the same sins and shortcomings. Mormons may be even more unhappy than others because they are encouraged to “put on a happy face” and “fake it 'til you make it”, so they do not seek the help they need.

Don’t parade your “righteous family” BS here, buddy. We know better.

 

[NewSeeker]

Parker,
It sounds to me that you think there wasn’t a single black man on earth worthy to hold the priesthood until 1978. Even if there was only one, why would he be denied the priesthood, even if every other black man spurned his family duties and refused to pay back his micro-loan?

 

[dianaiad]

That is what the thread is about. The racist policy held by the Mormon Church, in total, completely around the world, all of it, everywhere, without exception anywhere in the world, to not let black men hold their priesthood. A racist policy which was a reflection of 19th century America from which that church came.

Well now. I have seldom seen a completely inaccurate claim made quite so–strongly. Many black men were allowed to hold the priesthood; Pacific Islanders, Australian aborigines and others for instance, who at times had skin far darker than any person of African descent, held the priesthood from the beginning. The policy, in other words, had nothing to do with skin color.

(shrug) Not that it matters, but you’ve been told this before. You are aware of it. This fact doesn’t change the fact that the policy was not to allow blacks of African descent hold the priesthood, y’know. It does, however, indicate that you might want to be more careful about declaring something that definitely, when you are that definitely wrong about it.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Well now. I have seldom seen a completely inaccurate claim made quite so–strongly. Many black men were allowed to hold the priesthood; Pacific Islanders, Australian aborigines and others for instance, who at times had skin far darker than any person of African descent, held the priesthood from the beginning. The policy, in other words, had nothing to do with skin color.

Oh. OH. I know. I know.

That’s because Pacific Islanders are Lamanites.

 

[TheosisM]

Oh. OH. I know. I know.

That’s because Pacific Islanders are Lamanites.

I thought it was standard in the USA that when we refer to someone as “black” it means African American/African descent, and not South Asians or others with “black” skin.

-A “black [male] of African descent”

 

[Stephen168]

I thought it was standard in the USA that when we refer to someone as “black” it means African American/African descent, and not South Asians or others with “black” skin.

-A “black [male] of African descent”

I would say that is true, especially of those between the ages of 30 and 70. I guess we could assume dianaid is not from the USA, not between the ages of 30 and 70, or would rather argue than seek the truth.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I thought it was standard in the USA that when we refer to someone as “black” it means African American/African descent, and not South Asians or others with “black” skin.

-A “black [male] of African descent”

True. It is the same for Mormon teaching. “Lamanites” have a curse of dark skin, but for a different “reason”. All in all, if you aren’t white in Mormonism, you are descended from cursed people and are marked as such.

 

[NewSeeker]

Once again, Dianaiad is splitting hairs to deflect attention from the real issue. LDS leaders imposed a priesthood ban for racist reasons and then blamed the dark deed on God.

NS