Where can I find the Mormon teaching on Africans being fallen Angels?

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True. Mormons are forced to attend the ward that is closest to them geographically.
This is not true. The problem with your posts Paul is your use of contentious words, in this case, the word forced. I was never forced to attend my home ward. In fact, I spent my mormon young adulthood attending a ward that was far from my home. And no one cared. But if you do do this, you will not be able to hold callings or go hometeaching etc. But no one forces anyone to attend their home ward. However, if many people did go outside their home ward, certain understanding would need to be changed. But forced is the wrong ward.

Recommended is a much better word. 🙂
 
My intent is to prove to you why i believe what i do.
Your talking in circles, I thought you said you plan not to prove that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the true and living Church established by Christ. So evidently you believe it is and you plan on proving it. I’m confused!

So, I think a Catholic has answered your original post regarding Jesus at the well and Peter’s vision. So why would you be wondering why Jesus had called her a dog and also why the struggle for other apostles to accept the gentiles. Tell me why these two questions were spinning around in your head all at the same time together that you just had to get them out on this forum post?
 
Your talking in circles, I thought you said you plan not to prove that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the true and living Church established by Christ. So evidently you believe it is and you plan on proving it. I’m confused!

So, I think a Catholic has answered your original post regarding Jesus at the well and Peter’s vision. So why would you be wondering why Jesus had called her a dog and also why the struggle for other apostles to accept the gentiles. Tell me why these two questions were spinning around in your head all at the same time together that you just had to get them out on this forum post?
Haha you caught me! My intent was just to confuse you! just kidding 🙂

I know what i’m saying sounds circular. i’ll try and rephrase it differently and hopefully it doesn’t form a sphere. I don’t explain my beliefs for the purpose of the typical “I’m right you’re wrong” type of mentality. i explain them so that anyone reading seeking to understand WHY i believe what i do, may be properly informed, and then is free to say, “interesting” or “weird” or “whatever floats your boat” or “thanks for sharing but i could never believe that” etc. Does that help?

And regarding my connection between mark 7 and acts 10 was that mark 7 came way before, but Christ was perfect, so why was he calling a gentile a dog, when he should have understood already what peter later came to know. So then was peter at fault for not initially teaching the gentiles? or was it not allowed until it was revealed unto him that he was to teach to them at the specified time. that is WHY they were both “spinning around my head” at the time. And as i pondered upon that, i wondered what Catholics might think of those scriptures. And i did not offer any of my pre thought understandings or “spinnings” in hopes to get a pure catholic perspective on it
 
So…you decided that ‘black’ meant ‘only those of negroid African descent,’ because of your own definition…and then decided that your definition is, of course, the only one available, and that nobody could possibly interpret it as it has been historically defined?

The problem with your interpretation is that your definition, obviously, is not universal. If it WERE, I would not have reacted. I’ve been here before, y’see.
I had to take Dianad off of “Ignore” just to make sure I had read her quote correctly. Did she just use the term “negroid”??? This term originated in the 1850’s and in my estimation a very derogatory remark. WOW. Negroid…well for someone trying to uphold the stand the LDS Church is no longer racist, and never really was, to refer to an African American as a Negroid…well does little to overthrow the perceptions of Racism in the LDS doctrine and by Church members.

Yes, there were some African American men who were extended the Priesthood in the early days of the church, they held Priesthood offices. These were the exception not the rule. The Fact of the matter Men of African American decent or African decent, “Black” men were denied the Priesthood. Including holding Priesthood offices, the ability to perform Priesthood ordinances, the ability to receive Priesthood ordinances. Some of those Ordinances deemed necessary for Salvation, such as the endowment, and Celestial Marriage.
In LDS doctrine you have to receive the Endowment in order to pass by the Angels in order to regain presence with God and to live with him. So if you were African American you were denied this, therefore you were denied access into Gods presence. Celestial marriage not only seals your spouse to you for time and all eternity it also seals your prosperity to you as well. Prior to 1978 people of African descent could not receive such ordinances therefore were not privy to the “blessings” they would bring.

This bigoted and racist doctrine was taught from the top down as “REVELATION” from God, if it wasn’t then it wouldn’t be implemented in ordinances performed by the Church in Temples World Wide. Mormons owned Slaves. Prophets taught they were from a cursed lineage, they were descendants of Cain. They had Black Skin because of their lineage and were not as valiant in the Pre Mortal or 1st estate. If you’re Mormon and you refute these facts, then you’re just “kicking against the pricks.” you simply don’t want to see what is there. Enough said. J.Smith was somewhat progressive in his views of Slaves and the issues surrounding the South, but he still refers to Slaves as property, to have eth Government pay for their liberation from Slave owners then ship them back to Africa, or to use them as infantrymen to fight on the front lines against America’s enemy’s implying a certain sense of expendability.
What I find old about this discussion is the ever constant refusal from Mormon posters to give clear answers without deflecting on Weak Tertiary issues such as, “that isn’t true because Samoans have black skin, and they had the Priesthood…” Really?
The LDS should just own up on their folly. It is an uninspired teaching which the LDS church wisely changed due to the political climate, now just address it as such and move on. The Church doesn’t. They just sweep it under the rug in hopes the issue would be forgotten.
Racism is a blot on our history we all share. No one, or I should say no organization is totally innocent regarding this issue however; where racism in some organizations was present due to the wickedness of Men, racism was taught in other organizations as being Doctrine From GOD. While some organizations have dealt with their errors and have sought reconciliation, others have simply swept it under the rug.

“Negroid” the simple willingness to use such a word, even if just to try and prove a point leaves me astounded…in a disgusted way.
 
So then was peter at fault for not initially teaching the gentiles?
Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. (Acts 10:34-35)

Instead of throwing spears at Saint Peter, maybe a better question to ask yourself is why and how BY reversed the commandment given to Peter.
 
Stephen, there was a priesthood ban before 1978. People of black African descent could not hold the priesthood in the CoJCoLDS. Yes, it was a church wide ban. This has been stipulated; nobody is denying it.
Yes the Mormon Church did that. A true church of God would not. The Catholic Church did not.
But unlike other not ready groups they could not hold the priesthood, something given to every worthy LDS boy except black boys. There is no leadership in the LDS church that doesn’t require priesthood. So no there were no true leaders in Africa just black men who had to ask white men to baptize their children, give a blessing to their wives and children, bless the sacrament. What kind of leadership can’t even give a healing blessing to their own kids, who has to say (because he’s black) please my wife is sick would you bless her? And this was until 1978 how repugnant.
And just curious, can an LDS woman be sealed to a man who does not hold the priesthood?
So up until 1978 no forever black families? Or did the black people just have to trust that someone would do the work for them? How can LDS say nothing was held back from black members???
It just gets uglier and uglier.
I haven’t seen a good answer to this, yet either
 
It is Mormon doctrine that nobody will be denied any blessing they are worthy of permanently. So, yes the work would be done for them, eventually.
 
I had to take Dianad off of “Ignore” just to make sure I had read her quote correctly. Did she just use the term “negroid”??? This term originated in the 1850’s and in my estimation a very derogatory remark. WOW. Negroid…well for someone trying to uphold the stand the LDS Church is no longer racist, and never really was, to refer to an African American as a Negroid…well does little to overthrow the perceptions of Racism in the LDS doctrine and by Church members.

Yes, there were some African American men who were extended the Priesthood in the early days of the church, they held Priesthood offices. These were the exception not the rule. The Fact of the matter Men of African American decent or African decent, “Black” men were denied the Priesthood. Including holding Priesthood offices, the ability to perform Priesthood ordinances, the ability to receive Priesthood ordinances. Some of those Ordinances deemed necessary for Salvation, such as the endowment, and Celestial Marriage.
In LDS doctrine you have to receive the Endowment in order to pass by the Angels in order to regain presence with God and to live with him. So if you were African American you were denied this, therefore you were denied access into Gods presence. Celestial marriage not only seals your spouse to you for time and all eternity it also seals your prosperity to you as well. Prior to 1978 people of African descent could not receive such ordinances therefore were not privy to the “blessings” they would bring.

This bigoted and racist doctrine was taught from the top down as “REVELATION” from God, if it wasn’t then it wouldn’t be implemented in ordinances performed by the Church in Temples World Wide. Mormons owned Slaves. Prophets taught they were from a cursed lineage, they were descendants of Cain. They had Black Skin because of their lineage and were not as valiant in the Pre Mortal or 1st estate. If you’re Mormon and you refute these facts, then you’re just “kicking against the pricks.” you simply don’t want to see what is there. Enough said. J.Smith was somewhat progressive in his views of Slaves and the issues surrounding the South, but he still refers to Slaves as property, to have eth Government pay for their liberation from Slave owners then ship them back to Africa, or to use them as infantrymen to fight on the front lines against America’s enemy’s implying a certain sense of expendability.
What I find old about this discussion is the ever constant refusal from Mormon posters to give clear answers without deflecting on Weak Tertiary issues such as, “that isn’t true because Samoans have black skin, and they had the Priesthood…” Really?
The LDS should just own up on their folly. It is an uninspired teaching which the LDS church wisely changed due to the political climate, now just address it as such and move on. The Church doesn’t. They just sweep it under the rug in hopes the issue would be forgotten.
Racism is a blot on our history we all share. No one, or I should say no organization is totally innocent regarding this issue however; where racism in some organizations was present due to the wickedness of Men, racism was taught in other organizations as being Doctrine From GOD. While some organizations have dealt with their errors and have sought reconciliation, others have simply swept it under the rug.

“Negroid” the simple willingness to use such a word, even if just to try and prove a point leaves me astounded…in a disgusted way.
Kdesiel:

I am equally offended by the word.

You made very good points. Excellent post.

The Mormon claim that they have had a succession of living Prophets, since Joseph Smith, is very problematic. If Mormons acknowledge that the “revelations” given to their “prophets” were wrong, then they have to admit their Prophets, including Joseph Smith, were false Prophets—then Mormonism collapses. So, they have to keep arguing.
 
Kdesiel:

I am equally offended by the word.

You made very good points. Excellent post.

The Mormon claim that they have had a succession of living Prophets, since Joseph Smith, is very problematic. If Mormons acknowledge that the “revelations” given to their “prophets” were wrong, then they have to admit their Prophets, including Joseph Smith, were false Prophets—then Mormonism collapses. So, they have to keep arguing.
All they can do is deny, argue, or justify, or the most popular is just sweep it under the rug.
Thanks for the compliment.
 
I had to take Dianad off of “Ignore” just to make sure I had read her quote correctly. Did she just use the term “negroid”??? This term originated in the 1850’s and in my estimation a very derogatory remark. WOW. Negroid…well for someone trying to uphold the stand the LDS Church is no longer racist, and never really was, to refer to an African American as a Negroid…well does little to overthrow the perceptions of Racism in the LDS doctrine and by Church members.

Yes, there were some African American men who were extended the Priesthood in the early days of the church, they held Priesthood offices. These were the exception not the rule. The Fact of the matter Men of African American decent or African decent, “Black” men were denied the Priesthood. Including holding Priesthood offices, the ability to perform Priesthood ordinances, the ability to receive Priesthood ordinances. Some of those Ordinances deemed necessary for Salvation, such as the endowment, and Celestial Marriage.
In LDS doctrine you have to receive the Endowment in order to pass by the Angels in order to regain presence with God and to live with him. So if you were African American you were denied this, therefore you were denied access into Gods presence. Celestial marriage not only seals your spouse to you for time and all eternity it also seals your prosperity to you as well. Prior to 1978 people of African descent could not receive such ordinances therefore were not privy to the “blessings” they would bring.

This bigoted and racist doctrine was taught from the top down as “REVELATION” from God, if it wasn’t then it wouldn’t be implemented in ordinances performed by the Church in Temples World Wide. Mormons owned Slaves. Prophets taught they were from a cursed lineage, they were descendants of Cain. They had Black Skin because of their lineage and were not as valiant in the Pre Mortal or 1st estate. If you’re Mormon and you refute these facts, then you’re just “kicking against the pricks.” you simply don’t want to see what is there. Enough said. J.Smith was somewhat progressive in his views of Slaves and the issues surrounding the South, but he still refers to Slaves as property, to have eth Government pay for their liberation from Slave owners then ship them back to Africa, or to use them as infantrymen to fight on the front lines against America’s enemy’s implying a certain sense of expendability.
What I find old about this discussion is the ever constant refusal from Mormon posters to give clear answers without deflecting on Weak Tertiary issues such as, “that isn’t true because Samoans have black skin, and they had the Priesthood…” Really?
The LDS should just own up on their folly. It is an uninspired teaching which the LDS church wisely changed due to the political climate, now just address it as such and move on. The Church doesn’t. They just sweep it under the rug in hopes the issue would be forgotten.
Racism is a blot on our history we all share. No one, or I should say no organization is totally innocent regarding this issue however; where racism in some organizations was present due to the wickedness of Men, racism was taught in other organizations as being Doctrine From GOD. While some organizations have dealt with their errors and have sought reconciliation, others have simply swept it under the rug.

“Negroid” the simple willingness to use such a word, even if just to try and prove a point leaves me astounded…in a disgusted way.
Negroid-Australoid-Mongaloid-Caucasoid…I think these are the 4 major groups of homo-sapiens. If someone is offended by that they might be a little too thin skinned (no pun intended).😃
 
dianaiad, I’m still trying to understand how above clip can be possible when BY said the Negro would be the last to hold the priesthood? This is the third time I’ve asked and haven’t recieved a direct answer yet.
BY held a few incorrect notions, sir. Whether that one is incorrect or not is still to be decided, but if he was right about it, then he meant that they, AS A GROUP, would be the last GROUP to be offered the priesthood. In that case, he was pretty much right, as everybody ELSE could have it before 1978. There isn’t anybody else around, on the planet, who would be refused it. That makes them the last to hold it, does it not?
 
Philadelphia Archdiocese:
  • St. Adalbert (Polish), Philadelphia
  • St. George (Lithuanian), Philadelphia
  • St. John Cantius (Polish), Philadelphia
  • St. Josaphat (Polish), Philadelphia
  • St. Lucy (Italian), Philadelphia
  • St. Mary of the Assumption (German), Philadelphia
  • Mater Dolorosa (Italian), Philadelphia
  • Mother of Divine Grace (Italian), Philadelphia
  • Our Lady Help of Christians (German), Philadelphia
  • St. Agnes-St. John Nepomucene (Slovak), Philadelphia
  • St. Andrew (Lithuanian), Philadelphia
  • St. Casimir (Lithuanian), Philadelphia
  • St. Donato (Italian), Philadelphia
  • Holy Trinity (German), Philadelphia
  • St. Laurentius (Polish), Philadelphia
  • St. Nicholas of Tolentine (Italian), Philadelphia
  • St. Peter the Apostle (German), Philadelphia
  • St. Ann (Italian), Bristol
  • Holy Trinity (Polish), Phoenixville
  • St. Joseph (Slovak), Coatesville
  • Our Lady of the Assumption (Italian), Strafford
  • Sacred Heart (Slovak), Phoenixville
  • St. Stanislaus Kostka (Polish), Coatesville
  • SS. Cosmas and Damian (Italian), Conshohocken
  • Holy Saviour (Italian), Norristown
  • Our Lady of Mount Carmel (Italian), Bridgeport
  • Sacred Heart (Polish), Swedesburg
And who said anything about separate celebrations of Feasts, Memorials and Holy Days? The entire Church, worldwide, celebrates these together. In our parish, that has a Spanish Mass, we celebrate these together, in a tri-lingual Mass. Some of the music is in Spanish, some in Latin, some in English. The readings are given alternately in Spanish and English.

We have a Spanish Mass because people who speak Spanish asked for it. It is by far the most crowded Mass I have been to, standing room only. No one makes anyone attend this Mass. Anyone can attend any Mass they like. And yes, me, a blue-eyed Catholic of European descent attends Spanish Mass now and then. I prefer the English Mass because my Spanish is really lousy.

We have no clear demarcation. Parishioners move in and out of whatever Mass they like and serve all the people in the Parish. Our Director of Liturgy is Latina. She directs the entire liturgy for all of our Masses, English and Spanish.

You are just making up total ****. At least if you are going to take the time to type something about Catholics, learn something about it first.
All this means, unfortunately, is that the segragation is more wide spread. I notice a rather glaring ommision from your bragging about the ‘tri-lingual’ mass. Spanish, English and Latin.

How many black parishioners attend your church, and how welcome are they? Is there another church around that they prefer to attend?
 
All this means, unfortunately, is that the segragation is more wide spread. I notice a rather glaring ommision from your bragging about the ‘tri-lingual’ mass. Spanish, English and Latin.

How many black parishioners attend your church, and how welcome are they? Is there another church around that they prefer to attend?
Are you saying African American Parishioners can’t speak any of those languages or wouldn’t attend a Mass in Spanish, English and Latin?

Are you suggesting that they Speak another language? Maybe I’m wrong for picking up that infrence, but that is what it “sounded” like.
 
dianaiad - I’m not Catholic, but i still don’t understand why you try to justify the racism in the early Mormon church with the same shown in the Catholic church. Wasn’t it already revealed to Joseph Smith in the “First Vision” that all other religions were apostate. So what is the big deal here? Why reduce Mormanism down to the same level as an apostate church?
You aren’t paying attention to my arguments. I am not attempting to justify a racist policy in the Mormon church by pointing out the (incredibly worse) racism in the history of Catholicism. That’s called a tu quoque argument, and is considered a fallacy. Aracist policy is a racist policy no matter who points it out.

What I AM trying to get through everybody’s thick heads is this: Those who criticise the racist policy of Mormonism prior to 1978 (and it was racist, by definition) claim that this racism PROVES THAT MORMONISM IS WRONG.

Now there’s the rub. If a racist past proves that Mormonism is wrong, how much more does the racist past (and the more I learn about it, the worse it becomes…) of Catholicism prove IT to be wrong?

So we have this problem; if having a racist policy proves Mormonism to be wrong, then so is Catholicism. If a racist past does NOT prove Catholicism wrong, then it doesn’t prove Mormonism wrong, either. If Catholics want to criticize Mormonism, they have to do it some other way because in THIS way, they definately don’t hold the high ground.
 
Your talking in circles, I thought you said you plan not to prove that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the true and living Church established by Christ. So evidently you believe it is and you plan on proving it. I’m confused!
You shouldn’t be. After all, Mr. Parker’s claim to why he is here is pretty close to my reason for being here. I’m not here to convert anybody either. I am here to defend my own faith: to make certain that if there are disagreements with my faith, they are with what I actually DO believe, not some CRI strawman construct. As to ‘proving why I believe’ …that marches right along with it. Telling you why I believe something to be true is not making YOU believe it, or proving to YOU that it is true. It is simply explaining why I believe it.
So, I think a Catholic has answered your original post regarding Jesus at the well and Peter’s vision. So why would you be wondering why Jesus had called her a dog and also why the struggle for other apostles to accept the gentiles. Tell me why these two questions were spinning around in your head all at the same time together that you just had to get them out on this forum post?
 
I had to take Dianad off of “Ignore” just to make sure I had read her quote correctly. Did she just use the term “negroid”??? This term originated in the 1850’s and in my estimation a very derogatory remark. WOW. Negroid…well for someone trying to uphold the stand the LDS Church is no longer racist, and never really was, to refer to an African American as a Negroid…well does little to overthrow the perceptions of Racism in the LDS doctrine and by Church members.
Oh, don’t be silly. “Negroid” is a medical term that applies to the specific set of people this priesthood ban applied to. THAT has not changed, as VERY recent medical articles attest to. When you are talking about things like sickle cell anemia, or high blood pressure, or a tendency to diabetes, or problems that they share with other populations, that IS the term used. It is not derogatory. It’s a statement of genetics. All the politically correct euphamisms that obscure the idea refer back to that, and who cares?

I don’t.

Better not, since I MARRIED one and gave birth to five more.
 
Yes the Mormon Church did that. A true church of God would not. The Catholic Church did not.
Except…they did. Or rather, they had some token priests, but mostly they enslaved, sold, bought and refused to educate them–and it took them 400 YEARS to ordain a Catholic Priest in North America.
I haven’t seen a good answer to this, yet either
Nothing has been held back from them. Every black member of the church has had his or her work done. Every one. All present members who are worthy do their own work. Even you have to admit that 178 years isn’t much in terms of eternity.
 
Negroid-Australoid-Mongaloid-Caucasoid…I think these are the 4 major groups of homo-sapiens. If someone is offended by that they might be a little too thin skinned (no pun intended).😃
I notice that those who criticise the Book of Mormon have no problem at all refering to ‘mongoloid’ peoples…
 
Oh, don’t be an idiot. “Negroid” is a medical term that applies to the specific set of people this priesthood ban applied to. THAT has not changed, as VERY recent medical articles attest to. When you are talking about things like sickle cell anemia, or high blood pressure, or a tendency to diabetes, or problems that they share with other populations, that IS the term used. It is not derogatory. It’s a statement of genetics. All the politically correct euphamisms that obscure the idea refer back to that, and who the hell cares?

I don’t.

Better not, you flaming idiot, since I MARRIED one and gave birth to five more.

(to the moderators…I’m really sorry about this. If you feel you need to remove this post, I won’t get annoyed, and I’ll even apologise to the man. In a minute or two.)
A HA HA HA HA!
Relax.

For all you know I am a Negroid so don’t play that card on me.
Maybe if we weren’t so defensive you would’ve picked up on that point ages ago through various posts. Maybe the Preisthood ban is a sensitive issue for me because of the fact I am “Black” “African American” or “Negroid”
Lets all just relax before we start calling people “idiots” or “flaming idiots” for that matter. You may just put your foot in your mouth.
 
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