Where can Non-Catholics go to find an official document listing all Infallible excathedra states made by various Popes?

[Isaiah45_9]

It then becomes a matter of each individual Catholic’s interpretation to make the determination similar to how the Protestants discern the Bible.

Hardly… Nice stab thou.

Catholics stand together as one with the Pope as our Leader and Servant. In all languages and in all countries. Just come to one of our Masses and look at the people - from all cultures and all backgrounds and all nations. IOW - Universal. We are not as individual as our separated brethren.

Would love to take a stab back at this comment but will refrain…

This is could very welll explain why the majority of weekly attending/Eucharist receiving Catholic couples use contraception for instance, because they don’t believe the papal statements re: contraception to be infallible, they don’t see it as a moral or faith issue. Leads to much confusion without a document or up-to-date list of those statements made by Popes that the Catholic Church officially acknowledges as infallible.

Wow, just wow. You are able to tell the sex life of the majority of Catholic couples? Further, you can tell which ones use contraception and which ones don’t… and further, you have established that it is the majority?

Can I please see the source for this? Even more - I want to see the numbers of all the Catholics around the world that attend weekly Mass and then how you divide them into couples. I then want to see how you determined which of those couples are having sex and how exactly are they having it. And then which specific methods of contraception is each individual couple using. Name and addresses would be the icing on the cake.

And no, the Orthodox Church doesn’t have one as you know there is no single office or person who makes a claim to have Infallibility.

Of course, you have several offices. It would be impossible to avoid contradiction.

 

[1Tim215Mommy]

Hardly… Nice stab thou.

My observation wasn’t intended to be a stab.

Wow, just wow. You are able to tell the sex life of the majority of Catholic couples? Further, you can tell which ones use contraception and which ones don’t… and further, you have established that it is the majority?

Can I please see the source for this? …

Sorry I don’t recall the exact dates because I listen to Catholic radio just about on a daily basis. More than once I’ve heard them lementing as they tell the statistics about the use contraception for weekly Mass participants. I also remember that for daily Mass goers use of contraception is nearly zero.

My responces are in this brick red color.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

My responces are in this brick red color.

I’m not asking for dates. I’d like to see the source of your comment and accusation.

You said:

This is could very welll explain why the majority of weekly attending/Eucharist receiving Catholic couples use contraception for instance, because they don’t believe the papal statements re: contraception to be infallible, they don’t see it as a moral or faith issue. Leads to much confusion without a document or up-to-date list of those statements made by Popes that the Catholic Church officially acknowledges as infallible.

How do you know what each and every Catholic believes about the Papal statements?

Even further:

How do you know how each and every Catholic sees the statements as a moral or faith issue?

Where does it say that Catholics are only bound to obey on things that are to be placed on a document that contain infallible statements?

If your only source is that you heard it at some point in time at some radio station from some area… then how accurate is this source of yours? Do you believe everything you hear on the radio?

I honestly don’t believe that your intentions were to not take a stab at Catholics and Catholicism in general. It is poorly thought out comments like this that create all sorts of gossip and misconceptions.

It would be the same for me to start posting things I heard at some point in time at some radio station from some area about Orthodox and then go to an Orthodox website and post it as if what I heard was a fact. It would be iniquitous and disgraceful of me…

 

[gracepoole]

From Wikipedia:

The Catholic Church does not teach that the pope is infallible in everything he says; official invocation of papal infallibility is - apart from canonizations of saints - extremely rare.

Catholic theologians agree that both Pope Pius IX’s 1854 definition of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary and Pope Pius XII’s 1950 definition of the dogma of the Assumption of Mary are instances of papal infallibility, a fact which has been confirmed by the Church’s magisterium.[69] However, theologians disagree about what other documents qualify.

Regarding historical papal documents, Catholic theologian and church historian Klaus Schatz made a thorough study, published in 1985, that identified the following list of ex cathedra documents (see Creative Fidelity: Weighing and Interpreting Documents of the Magisterium, by Francis A. Sullivan, chapter 6):

• “Tome to Flavian”, Pope Leo I, 449, on the two natures in Christ, received by the Council of Chalcedon;
• Letter of Pope Agatho, 680, on the two wills of Christ, received by the Third Council of Constantinople;
• Benedictus Deus, Pope Benedict XII, 1336, on the beatific vision of the just after death rather than only just prior to final judgment;[70]
• Cum occasione, Pope Innocent X, 1653, condemning five propositions of Jansen as heretical;
• Auctorem fidei, Pope Pius VI, 1794, condemning seven Jansenist propositions of the Synod of Pistoia as heretical;
• Ineffabilis Deus, Pope Pius IX, 1854, defining the Immaculate Conception;
• Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII, 1950, defining the Assumption of Mary.

The Holy See has given no complete list of papal statements considered to be infallible. A 1998 commentary on Ad Tuendam Fidem issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith published on L’Osservatore Romano in July 1998[71] listed a number of instances of infallible pronouncements by popes and by ecumenical councils, but explicitly stated (at no. 11) that this was not meant to be a complete list.

One of the documents mentioned is Pope John Paul II’s apostolic letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis on reserving priestly ordination to men alone,[72] which the Congregation earlier stated to be infallible, although not taught ex cathedra (i.e., although not a teaching of the extraordinary magisterium), clarifying that the content of this letter has been taught infallibly by the ordinary and universal magisterium.[73] This was confirmed in a commentary by the same Congregation[71] and in commentaries by Cardinals Joseph Ratzinger[74] and Tarcisio Bertone.[75]

As well as popes, ecumenical councils have made pronouncements that the Church considers infallible.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility#Instances_of_infallible_declarations

Of course, anyone can easily locate Wikipedia – so I’m hoping this post wasn’t a smokescreen for an anti-Catholic jag…

 

[livingwordunity]

hmmm you don’t think it could be updated with the latest Infallible Statements as a Pope makes them?

Even if they did update the list the old and outdated lists would still be out on the streets. And not everyone using the outdated list would know about the update. So it just wouldn’t be practical and would probably lead to confusion.

 

[1Tim215Mommy]

I’m not asking for dates. I’d like to see the source of your comment and accusation.

It was a comment, not an accusation, was based on the source I already mentioned, Catholic Radio. By focusing on the comment which was simply an example of how a list of what the Catholic Church officially acknowledges as Papal Infallible Statements are needed for Catholics, rather than on the necessity of that list is deflecting the entire point of this thread: where can Non-Catholics, or Catholics, go to get the official list of Papal Infallible Statements?

How do you know what each and every Catholic believes about the Papal statements?

My point exactly. How can non-Catholics, or Catholics have an oppinion of an Infallible Papal Statement if they have no clear way of knowing what is or isn’t an actual infallible statement?

Even further:

How do you know how each and every Catholic sees the statements as a moral or faith issue?

Again, exactly my point. How can Non-Catholics, or Catholics, know for sure which Papal Statements is on an issue considered faith or moral and therefore Infallible if there is no list or document.

Where does it say that Catholics are only bound to obey on things that are to be placed on a document that contain infallible statements?

I didn’t know that was the case. I thought that Catholics are bound to believe Papal Infallible Statements and their Code of Canon Law.?

If your only source is that you heard it at some point in time at some radio station from some area… then how accurate is this source of yours? Do you believe everything you hear on the radio?

I appreciate your personal attack and will respond that of course I don’t believe everything I hear on the radio, but when I hear on Catholic Radio statistics of Catholics, Teachings of Catholics, practices of Catholics, problems within the Catholic Church, wonderful things the Catholic Church has done, etc. I do trust that since the source is a Catholic source with plenty of Catholic Priests, an occasional Bishop or Nun or Missionary and Catholic Apologists that the Catholic information provided is accurate.

I honestly don’t believe that your intentions were to not take a stab at Catholics and Catholicism in general. It is poorly thought out comments like this that create all sorts of gossip and misconceptions.

I am sorry that you feel the need to attempt to slander me and are falsely accusing me of lying about my intentions. If it makes you feel better, then continue these false accusations I have another cheek that hasn’t been hit yet and your welcome to it. If you go to far, of course I will place you on the Ignore List. Peace and good-will from me to you.:hug1:

It would be the same for me to start posting things I heard at some point in time at some radio station from some area about Orthodox and then go to an Orthodox website and post it as if what I heard was a fact. It would be iniquitous and disgraceful of me…

If you hear something on the secular radio about Orthodox, consider the source, but if you heard the information from an Orthodox Christian Radio station, like say Ancient Faith Radio, and you mentioned the information on in a comment, then I certainly don’t see anything “iniquitous or disgraceful” about that in the least.

I have become very interested as to why the information I received from a Catholic source is such a big thorn in the side to you, but I won’t ask because I’d rather not further side tracke this thread from the topic.

My responses in this slate blue color

 

[1Tim215Mommy]

Even if they did update the list the old and outdated lists would still be out on the streets. And not everyone using the outdated list would know about the update. So it just wouldn’t be practical and would probably lead to confusion.

I do disagree. Since Papal Infallibile Statements would ideally NEVER conflict with a previous Papal Infallible Statement, any outdated list could never cause confusion.

 

[livingwordunity]

1Tim215Mommy;10979677:

There isn’t one. The Church doesn’t function that way. Catholics are bound to believe everything the Church teaches. That’s one reason why the Church put out a Catechism.

Good point. As Catholics we have to give our unreserved assent to everything taught by the Church, doctrine, dogmas, and discipline. This is the will of Christ. So everything, not just the infallible declarations. It’s just like how the Blessed Virgin Mary, the very first Christian, didn’t try to argue about it when she was asked to be the Mother of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[Schism_hater]

Why do we need one? You guys have one?

Uh, we don’t have a “pope” who speaks (under certain conditions) “infallibly”.

Seriously, this (papal infallibility) is supposed to be an essential charism that the Church can’t do without, but you aren’t interested in knowing when it’s been exercised?

 

[jmcrae]

Where can Non-Catholics go to find an official document listing all Infallible excathedra states made by various Popes?

Such a thing does not exist, for the simple reason that we are to be obedient in all things; it is not a matter of “pick and choose” based on a handy list of infallible statements, or a minimalist idea of the least you can get away with and still not be a heretic.

How can non-Catholics, or Catholics have an opinion of an Infallible Papal Statement if they have no clear way of knowing what is or isn’t an actual infallible statement?

We aren’t actually being asked for our opinions - the Church is not a debating club.

We are servants, looking for opportunities to obey; not connoisseurs, looking for things to criticize.

My suggestion for anyone who wants to know if he is really a Catholic at heart is, Begin with the Nicene Creed; if you believe everything in the Nicene Creed and you still think you don’t need to be a Catholic, then continue with the Catechism - especially the section that explains the meaning of the Creed.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I didn’t know that was the case. I thought that Catholics are bound to believe Papal Infallible Statements and their Code of Canon Law.?

Catholics are bound to believe what has been authoritatively taught by the Catholic Church, even if it’s not declared to be infallible (The Catechism of the Catholic Church is an example of authoritative teachings).

Catholics are not bound to believe single theological opinions offered by individual members of the Magisterium (That includes the Pope). (Private Revelation declarations are an example of this, and so are the theological books by Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI).

As for the media. I personally don’t believe anything that is said on the media “prima facie”. Regardless of the source. But that is me. I like to test and verify before making a formal opinion or adjudicate a comment to anything.

1 Thessalonians 5:21*** but test everything; hold fast what is good,

---

Here is a thread here on CAF about this subject:

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=458304

My “thorn” is how you go from asking a good question to then jump into general statements about Catholic behavior and beliefs.

I have a very low tolerance level for judgmental comments, yours surely come out as that:

This is could very well explain why the majority of weekly attending/Eucharist receiving Catholic couples use contraception for instance, because they don’t believe the papal statements re: contraception to be infallible, they don’t see it as a moral or faith issue.

You didn’t explain that once you heard on the radio that they were discussing this subject.

No — you jumped right in and made a declaration about the intimate behavior of persons. Further, you jumped right into how these people don’t believe the Pope and what they see as a moral or faith issue.

It is not until I called you out on it that you are dancing around the subject and feeling like a victim, saying I am attacking you or slandering you.

I am not the one saying that the majority of Orthodox believe or don’t believe in something or what they see as a moral or faith issue.

No. I have called you out on it and either you produce the statistics to back up your comment or please withdraw it.

 

[1Tim215Mommy]

Seriously, this (papal infallibility) is supposed to be an essential charism that the Church can’t do without, but you aren’t interested in knowing when it’s been exercised?

I am really struggling trying to understand the purpose of this Catholic doctrine of Papal Infallibility considering that Catholics, and non-Catholics, have nothing official to refer to learn what is and isn’t an Infallible statement of a Pope.

What is the purpose of it?

How is Papal Infallibility useful at all?

 

[pablope]

I am really struggling trying to understand the purpose of this Catholic doctrine of Papal Infallibility considering that Catholics, and non-Catholics, have nothing official to refer to learn what is and isn’t an Infallible statement of a Pope.

What is the purpose of it?

How is Papal Infallibility useful at all?

from 1John 4… Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world……………6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Let us take this example:

If there is an important issue that the Church is going to speak about…who do you think should speak on that important issue?

If it is not the Bishop of Rome…who do you propose as the alternative that the world’s ears will be attuned to?

 

[1Tim215Mommy]

You didn’t explain that once you heard on the radio that they were discussing this subject.

You have now asked thrice and I have answered twice and will now for a third and final time that my Catholic source, where I’ve heard more than once that ‘the majority of practicing Catholic couples who participate in weekly Mass/Eucharist reception use contraception’ was Catholic Radio. I listen very often and do not recall what day/time/show it was on: was it on Mother Angelica, was it on Catholic Answers Live, was it on Fr. John Corapi’s Catechism show when he’s shows were still on the air, or one of the EWTN shows like Theresa Tomio, I honestly don’t recall. I do recall that it was a show with a solid Catholic reputation and that the stats were given with lementing because what is actually being practiced, birth control, is not what is considered acceptable by the Catholic Church and that NFP was brought up as a practical alternative and there were discussions on what should be done and what negative affects come for it, blah, blah, etc.

I remind you again that your posts are completely off topic. I thank you in advance to please choose to post in another non-Catholic thread or get on-topic in this one.

 

[1Tim215Mommy]

from 1John 4… Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world……………6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Let us take this example:

If there is an important issue that the Church is going to speak about…who do you think should speak on that important issue?

If it is not the Bishop of Rome…who do you propose as the alternative that the world’s ears will be attuned to?

From the responses to this thread, I have learned that the Catholic Church has no record of what Papal statements are considered Infallible.

You suggest by the passage quoted from the Bible that each individual within the Catholic Church is to personally test for themselves what Papal statements are to be considered Infallible while another Catholic poster in this thread has suggested that very Protestant line of thinking is jab against the Catholic Church.

I can only conclude from reading the responses to this thread that Catholics have no resource to determine officially what Papal statements are Infallible and that Catholics are all over the map as to how to determine what Papal statements are or aren’t Infallible.

If no one knows for certain what is Papal Infallible Statements, then the honest conclusion is that there no useful purpose at all to this ‘gift’.

I am reaffirmed that Papal Infallibility isn’t something that is needed in the Church and have learned here that it isn’t helpful for the Faithful Christians or non-Christians.

 

[gracepoole]

From the responses to this thread, I have learned that the Catholic Church has no record of what Papal statements are considered Infallible.

Of course it does. Just because there isn’t an exhaustive list available to the faithful doesn’t mean the Church has no record of infallible statements.

I am reaffirmed that Papal Infallibility isn’t something that is needed in the Church and have learned here that it isn’t helpful for the Faithful Christians or non-Christians.

So this post *is *a smokescreen for an anti-Catholic jag.

 

[pablope]

From the responses to this thread, I have learned that the Catholic Church has no record of what Papal statements are considered Infallible.

Who said there are no records? What you asked for is a list. There are records…just that there is not list.

And there is the Magisterium to clear any confusion.

You too have a Magisterium…the head of your magisterium is just called a different name…he is called a Patriarch.

You suggest by the passage quoted from the Bible that each individual within the Catholic Church is to personally test for themselves what Papal statements are to be considered Infallible while another Catholic poster in this thread has suggested that very Protestant line of thinking is jab against the Catholic Church.

No…only one infected with protestant thoughts would read the passage as you have. The “us” in the passage refers to those given the authority to determine truth…which falls on the bishops…the successors of the Apostles. I am sure this is your belief too.

The college of bishops is headed by the Pope.

If it was up to each individual to determine truth…there would be mass confusion. There is no such mass confusion in the Catholic Church.

I can only conclude from reading the responses to this thread that Catholics have no resource to determine officially what Papal statements are Infallible and that Catholics are all over the map as to how to determine what Papal statements are or aren’t Infallib

le.

You seem to be ignoring the responses that said…there is such confusion…any such confusion is cleared by the Magisterium. Only those remaining to be confused remaine to be confused.

If no one knows for certain what is Papal Infallible Statements, then the honest conclusion is that there no useful purpose at all to this ‘gift’.

How would you know what is truth and what is error? To whom would you run to determine what is truth and what is error?

Would you run and turn to yourself or go to someone with authority?

And is that person infallible when he tells you what is truth and what is error?

I am reaffirmed that Papal Infallibility isn’t something that is needed in the Church and have learned here that it isn’t helpful for the Faithful Christians or non-Christians

Are you the authority to make such a conclusion? Sorry…from your response…that is a sola scriptura protestant response.,and individual determines what is essential and what is needed…by your own statement…without realizing it…you just have made an infallible statement.

 

[LionHeart777]

From the responses to this thread, I have learned that the Catholic Church has no record of what Papal statements are considered Infallible…

There is no list (at least that I’m aware of), but you can get a good idea as a lay person what is and what isn’t using the criteria laid out in “Pastor Aeternus”. What is more, the Catholic Church recognizes three organs on infallibility:

"-the bishops dispersed throughout the world in union with the Holy See;

-ecumenical councils under the headship of the pope; and

-the pope himself separately. [when speaking ex cathedra]"

Source: Toner, Patrick. “Infallibility.” The Catholic Encyclopedia. Vol. 7. New York: Robert Appleton Company, 1910. 15 Jul. 2013 http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm.

…I can only conclude from reading the responses to this thread that Catholics have no resource to determine officially what Papal statements are Infallible and that Catholics are all over the map as to how to determine what Papal statements are or aren’t Infallible.

As I said, one can get a good idea by the criteria laid out by the Ecumenical Council of Vatican I, or if you want to dive in deeper one could consult, Theology manuals, Theologians, etc.

If no one knows for certain what is Papal Infallible Statements, then the honest conclusion is that there no useful purpose at all to this ‘gift’.

This is not the case, many (if not most) are commonly known (or should be by applying the criteria.) If some Theologians disagree on this or that, so be it. This does not mean that it is of no use (Heaven forbid!) Would you rather have a St. Peter in the Apostolic band whose faith could fail, one one who’s faith could not (St. Luke 22:32) ?

I am reaffirmed that Papal Infallibility isn’t something that is needed in the Church and have learned here that it isn’t helpful for the Faithful Christians or non-Christians.

I believe that is because you have drawn the wrong conclusions based on not all of the facts. If you really want to know more, dive into some good Catholic sources (you could start with the article I cited above. Also, you could read the Vatican I document that defined it, “Pastor Aeternus”, to see the usefulness of Papal Infallibility.)

 

[1Tim215Mommy]

Who said there are no records? What you asked for is a list. There are records…just that there is not list.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

pablope;10981770:
You want us to spoonfeed you? Do your own research. Go to Vatican.va and search there. Ask a CAF Apologist.