Where did the anti-family vibe come from?

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“Sola-CCC” is a grave an error as Sola Scriptura.

If “all that matters” is the Cathecism…what do we make of the Pope’s encyclicals which have been published after the Catechism? Are they irrelevant unless they are incorporated into a revised edition of the Catechism?

What did Catholics have to rely upon between the publication of the Catechism of the Council of Trent and the publication of the CCC? Those are the only two universal catechisms which have been published. What about the Catholics who lived in the Church for a millenium and a half before the publication of the Catechism of Trent? Was there no “standing teaching” because there was no universal Catechism?

I’d highly recommend the linked article for all Catholics to read. The idea that all that matters is what is new or that what has been taught as truth is now false, is a grave attack on the Faith. As our Holy Father says, a tree without roots dies.

latinmassmagazine.com/articles/articles_2001_SP_Ripperger.html

Pax Christi
 
To the OPs question…well it’s a big question and the answers are many.
  1. Original sin. Sin started in the family, and had immediate and lasting consequences for the family. A major part of the impact of original sin is strife between men and women and husbands and wives. While baptism washes away the stain of original sin, all mankind still struggles with concupisence.
  2. There has never been a perfect society on earth, and there never will be. However, that doesn’t mean that some societies have been closer to the goal of restoring all things in Christ than others, and it does not take much awareness to see that western civilization has been in a long descent into increased immorality and paganism for a long time. Some people point to the 1960s as the turning point. Others to the “progessive era” around the turn of the 19th into the 20th century. Others to the Protestant revolt. While each of those periods were very influential, I think the initial historical blow is even farther back.
As Pope Pius XI said a husband is the head of his family and the wife is the heart. Likewise, I think in many ways, the western Church is the head of the church and the eastern Church is the heart. The analogy is not perfect, but I think in many ways it is sound. The seperation that has occured between east and west for a variety of reasons has had major and lasting consequences. Most Latin Catholics hardly ever think about their Eastern brethren at all today. They can’t imagine that half of Christendom was either conquered by Moslems or seperated through schism.

To continue my analogy of the family, a husband and wife together a much better able to deal with an unruly and disobedient child than either spouse alone. With the husband (west) and wife (east) seperated, the disobedient son (Protestantism, Modernism, Atheism, etc) has been able to challenge the authority of the family (the Church) with far more success than they would ever have if there was unity in the family.
  1. I think the single most important thing that could be done to impove “everything wrong with the world” would be an increased focuse on the sacrament of Penance. The consequences of sin are real. The graces of the sacraments are real as well. Receiving the eucharist when not properly disposed imparts NO grace to the communicant, and the sacrilige actually draws the person deeper into the bondage of sin. Regular confession coupled with devotion to the Blessed Sacrament and devotion to Our Lady. I think those are the keys to sanctifying the home and society.
Pax Christi
 
I woudl also point out in this discussion that there is nothing in the bible against a working women. In fact that verse about the ideal woman is a working woman! Not to metion working women have been a norm through out history. Yes it is true many worked at or close to home. But my point is the idea that is was the norm until recently for the man to be the only breadwinner is false. But yeah just because for along time society expected women to be the primary housekeepers doesn;t mean they are designed to the the primary house keepers. I mean men can do a great job of that as well and there are some men who are stay at home dads as well that do a great job! Really its about what works best for each family. Maybe yours worked/works best with the woman staying at home but for some that would not work.
Dear Calliso,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

A married woman, dear friend, who professes religion ought to relinquish her occupation and dovote herself exclusivley to being a wife and mother, because that is her proper sphere ordained by God for the well being of the family and wider society. Indeed, it is by humble acceptance and submission to this role that a woman fulfills her true destiny.

Notwithstanding the gender confusion regarding roles these days, a woman should humbly receive the divinely ordained role of motherhood (see I Tim. 5: 14; Titus 2: 4,5) and the husband should proudly be the breadwinner and supporter of his family, unless exceptional circumstances prevent this (e.g. long term mental/physical illness). This, dear friend, is normal family life according to God’s intention for mankind. Thus, according God’s providential order, women should be “workers at home”, undertaking their domestic duties lovingly and wholeheartedly, being totally devoted to both husband and children. This is an honourable and vitally important task, irrespective of what our post-modern society says to the contrary, and should not be shunned in order to selfishly pursue a career outside of the home.

Sadly, radical aberrant feminist propaganda has made many modern women (including some Catholics) feel that they are unfulfilled if they are not a part of the workforce. Moreover, there is a shameful tendency to speak disparrangingly of the God-given role of wife and mother and to refuse to accept that marriage is the bedrock of society.

Women who are homebuilders, dear friend, make a tremendous contribution to society, inasmuch as they are providing a stable home environment for their children, being always available to counsel and console in the ups and downs of life. This will surely yeild many beneficial results in the lives of the children as they grow-up to be well-adjusted adults with little or no emotional disturbances. Whilst it is freely admitted that there are manifold reasons for behavoural problems in youth, it admits of no doubt that a mother who is hardly present in the formative years of her children can have a very negative impact upon them.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
I got married 5 years ago to my wonderful wife and now we have 2 beautiful children. We have a nice house with a big backyard in a neighborhood full of other kids and we have a great sense of community here. I’m not rich (enlisted military) but I make a decent amount and it’s stable so I can keep my family well taken care of. I love life. Seriously, this is the happiest I have ever been.

I wrote that not to brag, but to lay out the next part of my post. Why on earth would anyone be against this kind of life, or not want it, or make disparaging remarks and prefer to be single or at least married-with-no-kids? I just don’t get it, it totally boggles my mind. There is such a strong anti-family sentiment especially amongst younger people and intellectual types.

I don’t understand this general idea prevalent in society, in some parts more than others (IMO, the attitude is more widespread in non-Latin Europe), that glorifies being single and living for yourself. How does such an unnatural and abhorrent ideal come to be so widely accepted?

I think, and the Bible says, that man is not meant to be alone. Times have changed and will continue to change. It used to be that we were an agrarain society. Then we bacame industrialized. Most people want to be with others at different times in their lives. People have more options these days, so many are starting families later. Many are still having families early. I don’t know where you live, but I don’t see a huge change in people wanting to start families. I exponential increase in world populations can tell you that family is the center of most people. The growth rate in the US is about 1.3% a year. That should tell you that families are not going out of style.

It’s just not normal- pretty much all other cultures in the world glorify family and hold it to be life’s greatest good. I studied Chinese for 3 years in college and the character for “good” consists of a woman, a child, and a roof. I’m not making this up.

It doesn’t make sense historically, nor does it make sense experientially… I love my kids. Sure they irritate me sometimes, but I love them beyond words and they bring so much joy to my life. How could anyone not want joy, love and happiness and prefer self absorption and a very shallow kind of autonomy? So many people seem to want to hang on to a teenage lifestyle well into their 30s now, what a depressing existence!

Please… someone help me understand where this idea came from, why so many people believe in it, and what the heck is wrong with the world!
 
Dear Calliso,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

A married woman, dear friend, who professes religion ought to relinquish her occupation and dovote herself exclusivley to being a wife and mother, because that is her proper sphere ordained by God for the well being of the family and wider society. Indeed, it is by humble acceptance and submission to this role that a woman fulfills her true destiny.

Notwithstanding the gender confusion regarding roles these days, a woman should humbly receive the divinely ordained role of motherhood (see I Tim. 5: 14; Titus 2: 4,5) and the husband should proudly be the breadwinner and supporter of his family, unless exceptional circumstances prevent this (e.g. long term mental/physical illness). This, dear friend, is normal family life according to God’s intention for mankind. Thus, according God’s providential order, women should be “workers at home”, undertaking their domestic duties lovingly and wholeheartedly, being totally devoted to both husband and children. This is an honourable and vitally important task, irrespective of what our post-modern society says to the contrary, and should not be shunned in order to selfishly pursue a career outside of the home.

Sadly, radical aberrant feminist propaganda has made many modern women (including some Catholics) feel that they are unfulfilled if they are not a part of the workforce. Moreover, there is a shameful tendency to speak disparrangingly of the God-given role of wife and mother and to refuse to accept that marriage is the bedrock of society.

Women who are homebuilders, dear friend, make a tremendous contribution to society, inasmuch as they are providing a stable home environment for their children, being always available to counsel and console in the ups and downs of life. This will surely yeild many beneficial results in the lives of the children as they grow-up to be well-adjusted adults with little or no emotional disturbances. Whilst it is freely admitted that there are manifold reasons for behavoural problems in youth, it admits of no doubt that a mother who is hardly present in the formative years of her children can have a very negative impact upon them.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
A stay at home mom does not guarentee well adjusted children. Neither does a working mom make for messed up kids. In some ways my mom working I think helped me a lot. I am an extremely shy person having to stay at my neighbors house or latchkey for instance many days I think helped me get out and socialize more then I normally would have. My mom may have worked as well but she was very present in our lives. There are stay at home moms that aren;t very present in their kids lives as well. I donlt think moms need to work to have worth or whatever. But I think for many families it is what is for the best. Many families donlt have much choice or in some cases the woman makes enough for the man to stay home but the man doesn;t make enough for the woman to stay home. But no it is not selfish to pursue a career outside the home if it helps the family and in many cases it does. Working moms can be great moms just as good as stay at home moms I know my mom was a working mom.

Not to mention in my personal case I do not and am not having kids. Having me stay at home would be a waste. Though I suppose the home would be cleaner lol. But in general it is far better for me to be working. Especially since mentioning the shyness thing again it does forces me to interact with people. Before I got my current job I didn;t do much other then sit at home. Having a job forces me to get out in the world.
 
First, what are your grounds for saying that the papal teachings which I cited are no longer binding? … Casti Connubii is an encylical and hence a part of the Ordinary Magisterium and requires religious submission of the mind and will of the faithful…
I fail to see how my position is in conflict with the Papal encyclical in question.
No, dear friend, it is true that you have not mentioned the Vatican II Council, but by making such comments as “All that matters is the current catechism; this is the standing Church teaching”, you seem to be implying that the Documents of Vatican II, teaching of the post Council Popes and the present Catechism, are the only sources now of binding Catholic teaching.
So, your assertion was totally unfounded and, by the way, inaccurate. I am glad to know that you are incapable of conceiving of individuals who do not fit inside your neat little mental boxes.

Could you point out other instances of binding Church teaching not reflected in the Catechism in any way?
Humanae Vitae presents our Church’s teaching on abortion and artificial birth prevention. True, it is not an ex cathedra statement, but it is, notwithstanding, a part of the constant, consistent and universal teachings of the popes and bishops throughout the ages. Thus it is authoritative teaching for the Catholic faithful.
Its teachings are reflected in the Catechism. Also note that Casti Connubii rejects divorce, abortion, and contraception – all tenets reflected in the Catechism.
Thus when Pope Pius XI speaks of “taking the wife from the family and care of the children” and thrusting “her instead into public life and collective production…”, he is speaking truth that will always be applicable to any generation.
You are ignoring the proper context:
Divini Redemptoris:
Refusing to human life any sacred or spiritual character, such a doctrine logically makes of marriage and the family a purely artificial and civil institution, the outcome of a specific economic system. There exists no matrimonial bond of a juridico-moral nature that is not subject to the whim of the individual or of the collectivity. Naturally, therefore, the notion of an indissoluble marriage-tie is scouted. Communism is particularly characterized by the rejection of any link that binds woman to the family and the home, and her emancipation is proclaimed as a basic principle. She is withdrawn from the family and the care of her children, to be thrust instead into public life and collective production under the same conditions as man. The care of home and children then devolves upon the collectivity. Finally, the right of education is denied to parents, for it is conceived as the exclusive prerogative of the community, in whose name and by whose mandate alone parents may exercise this right.
The encyclical was a discussion of communism, atheistic society, etc. The encyclical in no way condemns any participation outside the home; rather, it condemns a society that places the care of the family under the auspices of the collective.
Again, when Pope Pius XII speaks about women being enticed by a “false independence” away from the family home and “the task assigned her for the good of society, by nature and by marriage”, he is surely speaking truth that would apply to any generation, including our own.
Again, this is not in conflict with my own position; yours is an assertion of a teaching that is simply not present in the encyclical.
so presumably authoritative and binding truth is still to be found within its contents. Then you have Sacred Tradition throughout the ages, including the teaching of the Oridinary Magisterium and encyclicals such as Casti Connubii, which contains authoritative timeless truth that has not been officially declared invalid and no longer applicable.
They have not. And yet, those tenets within them considered binding have been incorporated into the relevant compendia of Catholic teaching.
 
Feminist thought is at its root much more problematic than its ostensible profession and popular obfuscation often make it appear in biased battles of the “genders”. One such problem, fundamental to all faithless modernism, is an illicit elevation of the value of autonomy as a consequence of skepticism and rationalism. In the third chapter of Women and Decadence, John Flynn describes a certain underlying relativism in feminism, due primarily to one of its correlations with liberalism – itself a flawed ideology which wrongly and arbitrarily identifies choice (will) above truth (intellect), but I digress.
The philosophical basis of liberalism may be understood as a rational lack of complete assurance concerning knowledge and values. This forestalls the imagining of utopias. This lack of certainty breeds a sometimes reluctant tolerance of the beliefs and actions of others but in turn hinders any desire to make others conform to absolutist ideals. In political terms the absence of a monopoly on truth and goodness merely requires a mutual recognition of the fact.

The exponents of liberal feminism are thus seen as somewhat self-consciously part of historical development insofar as they tend not to make absolutist claims and judgements. . .

Relativism, mind you, is not a theory that has a history of getting along well with religions which dare to dogmatically declare absolute truths. In the end, I find it increasingly difficult to see liberalism as anything short of anti-Catholic once thoroughly maintained; and feminism at its best is simply an outgrowth of the egalitarianism typically drawn from liberal presuppositions. But that’s only the rough beginning of its underestimated danger. We’re all constantly inhaling the artificial air of modernism, so usually it’s tough for us to become aware of the radical extent to which it influences our overlooked cultural assumptions. Still, the all-too-familiar reasons for hesitating to throw out every form of feminism to ever exist can be found and perhaps at least questioned, if one searches enough, that is.

And so I’ve taken the trouble upon myself to gather but a few introductory summaries of more traditional thought on the subject for your reading pleasure. Mark Richardson’s e-book on liberal orthodoxy, following a warranted critique of egalitarian autonomy theories which seek to blur or abolish sexual difference in favor of total self-determination, has a short chapter with a basic defense of obligatory sex distinctions (under the section aptly labelled “In defence of sex distinctions”).
Sex distinctions are important to our identity and our sexuality. Therefore, it won’t be easy for anyone to live consistently by a liberal politics. Most people will be forced to resort to what the American political writer, Lawrence Auster, has termed unprincipled exceptions.

What this means is that liberals will call in public for sex distinctions to be abolished, whilst finding in their own private lives that sex distinctions continue to matter. They will therefore make exceptions in their own private lives to the liberal principle, according to their own comfort level, without admitting to themselves or others that they are doing so.

Jim Kalb’s basic FAQ on sexual morality responds to an inevitable objection.
What about gays, women caught in loveless marriages, and others for whom traditional sexual morality doesn’t work?

What about those for whom any system of things doesn’t work? What about large muscular men with vehement appetites, minimal intelligence, and violent tempers who find the restraints imposed by modern criminal law unbearable and would have been happier as Visigoths? What about people with an intense psychological need for uniformity, stability and discipline who find that for them the multicultural capitalist consumer society doesn’t work? Such people don’t write books that get favorable reviews in mainstream publications, but they exist and suffer.

. . . All social institutions that deal with fundamental matters seem oppressive to those who for whatever reason have come to think they shouldn’t have to comply with them. The economic system requires us on pain of poverty to get up and go to work every day, sacrificing the best hours of our lives to the requirements of other people. The legal system demands that we deny what seems our own nature by restraining our impulses, and the political system can require us to sacrifice our very lives in its defense. Since we are social beings, the normal response to such necessities is to bring children up to accept the demands that must be met, to view meeting them as part of what it is to be a good person, and to show only very limited tolerance toward those who refuse to comply. It’s unclear why the response in the case of sex should be different. No system pleases everyone; the point is to have a system that works tolerably well as a general thing, and in particular one that deals adequately with such utterly fundamental issues as the relation between the sexes and the care and education of children. Once such a system exists it may be possible to find piecemeal ways of mitigating burdens in special situations, but it’s absurd to make such things the center of attention.

Overall, though arguing in a bit of a different direction, Roger Scruton, a near perfect example of the prototypical gentleman and scholar himself (with the perfection being Portrait), probably explains it best in an article entitled “Modern Manhood”.
The [newfound] unhappiness of men flows directly from the collapse of their old social role as protectors and providers. For the feminists, this old social role was a way of confining women to the household, where they would not compete for the benefits available outside. Its destruction, they contend, is therefore a liberation—not of women only, but of men, too, who can now choose whether they wish to assert themselves in the public sphere or whether, on the contrary, they wish to stay at home with the baby. . . This is the core idea of feminism—that “gender roles” are not natural but cultural, and that by changing them we can overthrow old power structures and achieve new and more creative ways of being.
Scruton later concludes:
We should see them, rather, as revelations of the moral sense. They are the sign that there really is a difference between the masculine and the feminine, over and above the difference between the male and the female. Without the masculine and the feminine, indeed, sex loses its meaning. Gender is not just possible, but necessary.

And here, surely, lies our hope for the future. When women forge their own “gender identity,” in the way the feminists recommend, they become unattractive to men—or attractive only as sex objects, not as individual persons. And when men cease to be gentlemen, they become unattractive to women. Sexual companionship then goes from the world. All that it needs to save young people from this predicament is for old-fashioned moralists to steal unobserved past their feminist guardians and whisper the truth into eager and astonished ears—the truth that gender is indeed a construct, but one that involves both sexes, acting in mutual support, if it is to be built successfully. In my experience, young people hear with great sighs of relief that the sexual revolution may have been a mistake, that women are allowed to be modest, and that men can make a shot at being gentlemen.

Ridicule me as a raving sexist if you like, but I mostly disparage feminism because it killed chivalry, thereby rendering my inner-romantic a burdensome saboteur whom must persistently be slain with cold instruments of sharpened Reason. Sure, I may pretend in public that it’s the widespread toxicity to traditional Western culture that bothers me, or even perhaps the suffocating intolerance of civilized Christianity, but that’s merely a front for personal weakness at the end of the day. I mean – c’mon – these days, if you’re not extremely careful, exposed vulnerability can and will be exploited by rivals, male or female. It’s every man for himself out there. Gotta establish position in the intersexual competition.
 
I’m enjoying this thread and would like to make an appeal to the moderators to keep it open, as I had spent 40 minutes typing up a reply on another feminism thread only to receive a message that it had been closed when I hit “Post”! :mad::mad:😃
Glad you’re able to diminish a childless couple to two simple adjectives. The fact is there are plenty of people who have children for selfish reasons. To feel loved, to fit in, to feel like the only way they can have any meaning is life is to have children over and over again. And as is on display here to feel better than other people.
I have to agree with both the poster who cited selfishness and hedonism as reasons for modern people being anti-family, but I agree with the above post as well. We are increasingly becoming a more individualistic society where self-pleasure is our priority and responsibilties and obligations are for suckers, so the natural outcome of that will be an increase in people who view children as an obstacle to their fun.

However, insomuch as those people are “selfish”, I don’t think having children is an entirely *unselfish *act either, as it is often touted to be. Men who want children may do so because it validates their masculinity by offering physical proof of their virility. Or perhaps because they seek immortality on earth in addition to Heaven, by way of leaving a bloodline, a legacy (*their *names will be handed down through future generations). And many women choose to have children because it meets their desire to nurture (something they *want *to do), or they may enjoy the attention or gifts they receive. Personally, I always make it a point to make a big fuss over my girlfriends’ and family members children (even if they’re really *not *that cute!) because I know they enjoy it. Or maybe both men and women desire children so that they have someone to take care of them in old age.

I don’t see anything wrong with these reasons (in fact I think it is a normal, innate desire of most people), but at the same time it’s a bit silly to paint childless couple as concerned only with trivial desires and to pretend that those who become mothers and fathers do it for purely selfless reasons.

As for myself, I’m a single woman in my early thirties, but I’ve never felt my biological clock tick. I don’t know why. I’ve never had horrible experiences with men and I grew up in a stable household with siblings I’m very close to, and yet whenever I’ve held a baby in my arms I never felt a yearning for one of my own. But I’m certainly not anti-children/family; I hope to be married one day and will trust in the Church’s teaching on sexuality and being open to life - I’m just offering a personal perspective to the OP’s astonishment at those who don’t desire children. Incidentally, whenever I hear some younger girlfriends of mine make disparaging remarks about children I gently question them on where those thoughts came from and if they’ve considered that maybe it’s secular propaganda that put those thoughts in their head to make them undermine their natural inclinations. Because I do believe that *I’m *the abnormal one and a large part of the radical feminist movement was to drive a wedge between the sexes and break the nuclear family. And yes, sometimes I feel hypocritical saying that considering that I’m fairly apathetic toward children of my own.:o:shrug: My mother says it’s because I’ve never been in love.😉
Portrait,

So women who don’t marry and don’t become religous are ungodly feminists(that f word again :rolleyes:). What about men who don’t marry and don’t become religous? Do you have similar words for them?
They’re called “Bachelors” and “Playboys” - the fantasy lifestyle that made Hugh Heffner an icon 😉
 
I fail to see how my position is in conflict with the Papal encyclical in question.

So, your assertion was totally unfounded and, by the way, inaccurate. I am glad to know that you are incapable of conceiving of individuals who do not fit inside your neat little mental boxes.

Could you point out other instances of binding Church teaching not reflected in the Catechism in any way?

Its teachings are reflected in the Catechism. Also note that Casti Connubii rejects divorce, abortion, and contraception – all tenets reflected in the Catechism.

You are ignoring the proper context:

The encyclical was a discussion of communism, atheistic society, etc. The encyclical in no way condemns any participation outside the home; rather, it condemns a society that places the care of the family under the auspices of the collective.

Again, this is not in conflict with my own position; yours is an assertion of a teaching that is simply not present in the encyclical.

They have not. And yet, those tenets within them considered binding have been incorporated into the relevant compendia of Catholic teaching.
Dear Baelor,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Thankyou again for your response.

Since, dear friend, you do not believe that a married women should relinquish her occupation and devote herself exclusively to being a wife and mother, your position is at variance with the *Casti Connubii *encyclical. This encyclical supports the position that the ideal and natural family arrangement is one where the wife/mother remains at home dovoted to the care of children and domestic affairs.

Certainly to hold that all ‘standing teaching’ is to found soley within the pages of the current Catechism (which you say, " it is all that matters") is an exceedingly narrow understanding of of our most holy religion. As Dan Daly says above, it is a sort of ‘sola CCC’ and is just as much a grave error as the sola scriptura stance of Protestantism.

Surely, dear friend, the reason why the belief regarding married women staying at home and devoting themselves exclusively to motherhood is not expressly stated in the Catechism, is because it is a manifestly obvious truth that should be plainly evident to any Catholic with a well-formed conscience. The Church does not need to spoon-feed the faithful about a truth that has been accepted by the moral sense of the faithful throughout the ages, until the emergence of radical aberrant feminism in the 1960’s.

It is the context, of which I am well-aware, of Divini Redemptoris that makes it such a jolly powerful and cogent argument against the feminist ways of our days, dear brother. The Woman’s Liberation movement is basicly Marxist, thus Pope Pius XI’s encyclical is very apposite indeed, for if communism was wrong in trying to emancipate a woman from the domestic hearth, then is is surely wrong of the feminists (or anyone else for that matter) to try and do likewise. Indeed, by attempting to do radical feminism only reveals its Marxist connections, which is why those who profess the religion of Christ ought to give this godless ideology a wide-berth. The strong and umistakeable implication is that a married woman should not be wrenched from the domestic sphere which is her proper place - she is ‘bound’ to the family and the home.

The words of Pope Pius XII clearly teach that a married woman’s place is being a “worker at home” (Titus 2: 4,5). He warns of a “false independence” away from the home and “the task assigned her for the good of society, by nature and by marriage” - in other words, dear friend, assigned to her by the divine providence for the well-being of society, for this is a natural estate within the context of marriage.

As I said previously, dear friend, the consistent teaching of the Church about a married woman remaining at home and submitting exclusively to the role of wife and mother, is a self-evident truth that emerges from our understanding of the natural role of a woman, assigned to her by the divine providence. Prior to the advent of radical aberrant feminism nobody challenged this truth because, unlike our own times, people recognised gender differences and the role of wife/mother. Alas, these gender differences have now been blurred and indeed some or striving to erradicate all differences between men and women. This results in such egregiously held beliefs as a woman’s ‘right’ to fight in war zones alongside men.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
Feminist thought is at its root much more problematic than its ostensible profession and popular obfuscation often make it appear in biased battles of the “genders”. One such problem, fundamental to all faithless modernism, is an illicit elevation of the value of autonomy as a consequence of skepticism and rationalism. In the third chapter of Women and Decadence, John Flynn describes a certain underlying relativism in feminism, due primarily to one of its correlations with liberalism – itself a flawed ideology which wrongly and arbitrarily identifies choice (will) above truth (intellect), but I digress.
The philosophical basis of liberalism may be understood as a rational lack of complete assurance concerning knowledge and values. This forestalls the imagining of utopias. This lack of certainty breeds a sometimes reluctant tolerance of the beliefs and actions of others but in turn hinders any desire to make others conform to absolutist ideals. In political terms the absence of a monopoly on truth and goodness merely requires a mutual recognition of the fact.

The exponents of liberal feminism are thus seen as somewhat self-consciously part of historical development insofar as they tend not to make absolutist claims and judgements. . .

Relativism, mind you, is not a theory that has a history of getting along well with religions which dare to dogmatically declare absolute truths. In the end, I find it increasingly difficult to see liberalism as anything short of anti-Catholic once thoroughly maintained; and feminism at its best is simply an outgrowth of the egalitarianism typically drawn from liberal presuppositions. But that’s only the rough beginning of its underestimated danger. We’re all constantly inhaling the artificial air of modernism, so usually it’s tough for us to become aware of the radical extent to which it influences our overlooked cultural assumptions. Still, the all-too-familiar reasons for hesitating to throw out every form of feminism to ever exist can be found and perhaps at least questioned, if one searches enough, that is.

And so I’ve taken the trouble upon myself to gather but a few introductory summaries of more traditional thought on the subject for your reading pleasure. Mark Richardson’s e-book on liberal orthodoxy, following a warranted critique of egalitarian autonomy theories which seek to blur or abolish sexual difference in favor of total self-determination, has a short chapter with a basic defense of obligatory sex distinctions (under the section aptly labelled “In defence of sex distinctions”).
Sex distinctions are important to our identity and our sexuality. Therefore, it won’t be easy for anyone to live consistently by a liberal politics. Most people will be forced to resort to what the American political writer, Lawrence Auster, has termed unprincipled exceptions.

What this means is that liberals will call in public for sex distinctions to be abolished, whilst finding in their own private lives that sex distinctions continue to matter. They will therefore make exceptions in their own private lives to the liberal principle, according to their own comfort level, without admitting to themselves or others that they are doing so.

Jim Kalb’s basic FAQ on sexual morality responds to an inevitable objection.
What about gays, women caught in loveless marriages, and others for whom traditional sexual morality doesn’t work?

What about those for whom any system of things doesn’t work? What about large muscular men with vehement appetites, minimal intelligence, and violent tempers who find the restraints imposed by modern criminal law unbearable and would have been happier as Visigoths? What about people with an intense psychological need for uniformity, stability and discipline who find that for them the multicultural capitalist consumer society doesn’t work? Such people don’t write books that get favorable reviews in mainstream publications, but they exist and suffer.

. . . All social institutions that deal with fundamental matters seem oppressive to those who for whatever reason have come to think they shouldn’t have to comply with them. The economic system requires us on pain of poverty to get up and go to work every day, sacrificing the best hours of our lives to the requirements of other people. The legal system demands that we deny what seems our own nature by restraining our impulses, and the political system can require us to sacrifice our very lives in its defense. Since we are social beings, the normal response to such necessities is to bring children up to accept the demands that must be met, to view meeting them as part of what it is to be a good person, and to show only very limited tolerance toward those who refuse to comply. It’s unclear why the response in the case of sex should be different. No system pleases everyone; the point is to have a system that works tolerably well as a general thing, and in particular one that deals adequately with such utterly fundamental issues as the relation between the sexes and the care and education of children. Once such a system exists it may be possible to find piecemeal ways of mitigating burdens in special situations, but it’s absurd to make such things the center of attention.

Overall, though arguing in a bit of a different direction, Roger Scruton, a near perfect example of the prototypical gentleman and scholar himself (with the perfection being Portrait), probably explains it best in an article entitled “Modern Manhood”.
The [newfound] unhappiness of men flows directly from the collapse of their old social role as protectors and providers. For the feminists, this old social role was a way of confining women to the household, where they would not compete for the benefits available outside. Its destruction, they contend, is therefore a liberation—not of women only, but of men, too, who can now choose whether they wish to assert themselves in the public sphere or whether, on the contrary, they wish to stay at home with the baby. . . This is the core idea of feminism—that “gender roles” are not natural but cultural, and that by changing them we can overthrow old power structures and achieve new and more creative ways of being.
Scruton later concludes:
We should see them, rather, as revelations of the moral sense. They are the sign that there really is a difference between the masculine and the feminine, over and above the difference between the male and the female. Without the masculine and the feminine, indeed, sex loses its meaning. Gender is not just possible, but necessary.

And here, surely, lies our hope for the future. When women forge their own “gender identity,” in the way the feminists recommend, they become unattractive to men—or attractive only as sex objects, not as individual persons. And when men cease to be gentlemen, they become unattractive to women. Sexual companionship then goes from the world. All that it needs to save young people from this predicament is for old-fashioned moralists to steal unobserved past their feminist guardians and whisper the truth into eager and astonished ears—the truth that gender is indeed a construct, but one that involves both sexes, acting in mutual support, if it is to be built successfully. In my experience, young people hear with great sighs of relief that the sexual revolution may have been a mistake, that women are allowed to be modest, and that men can make a shot at being gentlemen.

Ridicule me as a raving sexist if you like, but I mostly disparage feminism because it killed chivalry, thereby rendering my inner-romantic a burdensome saboteur whom must persistently be slain with cold instruments of sharpened Reason. Sure, I may pretend in public that it’s the widespread toxicity to traditional Western culture that bothers me, or even perhaps the suffocating intolerance of civilized Christianity, but that’s merely a front for personal weakness at the end of the day. I mean – c’mon – these days, if you’re not extremely careful, exposed vulnerability can and will be exploited by rivals, male or female. It’s every man for himself out there. Gotta establish position in the intersexual competition.
Dear In Spiration,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

Excellent contribution and I trust that everyone here will read and mark it most carefully. How sad that the feminist world-view has influenced so many modern Catholics, even those who are otherwise conservative as touching faith and morals.

One legacy of godless secular feminism and its claim for all-round equality with men, is the snuffing out of gentlemanly behaviour that was so much a feature of bygone days. Thus men no longer offer their seats in a crowded underground train or bus to a woman as a woman, open the door for her, or treat her with any special consideration as this is now thought to be insulting and a denial of her equality. What a tragedy that things have come to this, dear friend, our lot is truly cast in very sad and confused times, thanks to radical aberrant feminism.

God bless and thankyou for that (name removed by moderator)ut - it says it all.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
Since, dear friend, you do not believe that a married women should relinquish her occupation and devote herself exclusively to being a wife and mother, your position is at variance with the *Casti Connubii *encyclical. This encyclical supports the position that the ideal and natural family arrangement is one where the wife/mother remains at home dovoted to the care of children and domestic affairs.
Really? I read the whole thing but do not remember this at all.
Certainly to hold that all ‘standing teaching’ is to found soley within the pages of the current Catechism (which you say, " it is all that matters") is an exceedingly narrow understanding of of our most holy religion. As Dan Daly says above, it is a sort of ‘sola CCC’ and is just as much a grave error as the sola scriptura stance of Protestantism.
What standing teaching exists apart from the issue under question upon which the CCC remains completely silent? Nothing comes to mind.
Surely, dear friend, the reason why the belief regarding married women staying at home and devoting themselves exclusively to motherhood is not expressly stated in the Catechism, is because it is a manifestly obvious truth that should be plainly evident to any Catholic with a well-formed conscience.
It is not evident to those with well-formed consciences because it is not actually a teaching of the Church.

Furthermore, the Church does not require Catholics to obey morals that it does not articulate. The Church teaches what is true; we are not asked to determine universal truths for ourselves. The fact that a teaching is obvious does not mean that the Church does not teach it.
The Church does not need to spoon-feed the faithful about a truth that has been accepted by the moral sense of the faithful throughout the ages, until the emergence of radical aberrant feminism in the 1960’s.
The Church does spoon-feed the faithful about truths. This is what the CCC is, if you would like to view it in such a cynical manner.
The strong and umistakeable implication is that a married woman should not be wrenched from the domestic sphere which is her proper place - she is ‘bound’ to the family and the home.
No, the encyclical clearly stated that the problem was with the mother’s abandonment of the family to the control of the collective and the state. This does not lead directly to the conclusion you claim exists.
He warns of a “false independence” away from the home and “the task assigned her for the good of society, by nature and by marriage” - in other words, dear friend, assigned to her by the divine providence for the well-being of society, for this is a natural estate within the context of marriage.
You are taking to extremes a statement that is moderate. The encyclical does not state that the woman must remain at home. It states that she may not have a false independence from the family that would lead to its abandonment to the collective. These are clearly not synonymous.
 
A stay at home mom does not guarentee well adjusted children. Neither does a working mom make for messed up kids. In some ways my mom working I think helped me a lot. I am an extremely shy person having to stay at my neighbors house or latchkey for instance many days I think helped me get out and socialize more then I normally would have. My mom may have worked as well but she was very present in our lives. There are stay at home moms that aren;t very present in their kids lives as well. I donlt think moms need to work to have worth or whatever. But I think for many families it is what is for the best. Many families donlt have much choice or in some cases the woman makes enough for the man to stay home but the man doesn;t make enough for the woman to stay home. But no it is not selfish to pursue a career outside the home if it helps the family and in many cases it does. Working moms can be great moms just as good as stay at home moms I know my mom was a working mom.

Not to mention in my personal case I do not and am not having kids. Having me stay at home would be a waste. Though I suppose the home would be cleaner lol. But in general it is far better for me to be working. Especially since mentioning the shyness thing again it does forces me to interact with people. Before I got my current job I didn;t do much other then sit at home. Having a job forces me to get out in the world.
Dear Calliso,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Thankyou again for your response.

True, having a mother at home does not always guarantee well-adjusted children, but it certainly provides a good secure foundation that helps considerably, especially in these difficult days in which our lot is cast. Moreover, dear friend, there are no cast iron guarantees in life, but like our journey to Heaven, we can only do our best and give dilligence to make our calling and election certain. When God’s providential order is followed, it will usually yeild beneficial results - “those who honour me, I will honour saith the Lord”.

Here in the UK a BBC TV investigative programme called* Panorama* (Jan. 2000) carried out research into the lives of some 560 mothers who had started full-time jobs. After two years of working, one third of the women had left. About half of those who left had gone into part-time work and the other half had left the world of work altogther. They wanted more time to be with their precious children. The impression given was that many of those who had remained in full-time employment wished that they did not have to do so. They were dissatisfied and felt deeply upset, especially if they had to leave their children with so called ‘child-minders’. Making no distinction between men and women is a flawed idea and a denial of the roles assigned by the divine providence. Secular visions femininity do not lead to fulfillment for women as persons, on the contrary it makes them, at length, deeply unhappy and disillusioned, which is to be expected when God’s providential order is rejected.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
Dear Calliso,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Thankyou again for your response.

True, having a mother at home does not always guarantee well-adjusted children, but it certainly provides a good secure foundation that helps considerably, especially in these difficult days in which our lot is cast. Moreover, dear friend, there are no cast iron guarantees in life, but like our journey to Heaven, we can only do our best and give dilligence to make our calling and election certain. When God’s providential order is followed, it will usually yeild beneficial results - “those who honour me, I will honour saith the Lord”.

Here in the UK a BBC TV investigative programme called* Panorama* (Jan. 2000) carried out research into the lives of some 560 mothers who had started full-time jobs. After two years of working, one third of the women had left. About half of those who left had gone into part-time work and the other half had left the world of work altogther. They wanted more time to be with their precious children. The impression given was that many of those who had remained in full-time employment wished that they did not have to do so. They were dissatisfied and felt deeply upset, especially if they had to leave their children with so called ‘child-minders’. Making no distinction between men and women is a flawed idea and a denial of the roles assigned by the divine providence. Secular visions femininity do not lead to fulfillment for women as persons, on the contrary it makes them, at length, deeply unhappy and disillusioned, which is to be expected when God’s providential order is rejected.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
Well I agree that in general most women probably aren;t jumping up and down to go to work everyday. Though there are those that do enjoy their careers. Not to mention while it is true some women do like to stay at home for some women getting out and working at least part time helps them keep their sanity. It allows time away from the kids and time for adult conversations. And you know in general I do think it is best for someone to stay home with the kids. And yeah I realize do to many circumstances most of the time that will be the woman. However the attitude that a womans place is only at home can lead to not so good things. For instance why bother allowing a woman to get a higher education? She wonlt use it. I mean changing diapers and washing the kitchen floor doesn;t require a college education heck might as well drop out of highschool early as well! Not to mention it leads to situations where if things donlt work out so well for instance husband leaves you husband is abusive or husband dies well suddenly you find yourself in a bad situation because with no experience not to mention being a woman most places wonlt even consider you for hire. Personally I thnk even stay at home moms shoudl get a part time job once the kids are in school. I mean unless you home school your kids wonlt be home for several hours every day. And unless your house literally takes hours every day to clean well why not get a job then? You can help yur husband wit hthe bills so maybe he gets to spend more time with the kids as well. Not to mention if you need to leave your husband or if something happens to him you wonlt find yourself jobless with no experience suddenly responsible for all the bills.

I would agree men and women are different. However I am against making distinctions that were based on a sexist culture that saw women as second class citizens that were weaker less intelligent and in general just less then men.
 
I just thought about something too while I was at work. It seems alot of the arguements against women working really could be summed up as Mens pride and ego. I mean does anyone else see that in some of these comments? Like oh no if women work and have equal value to men our egos will be damaged!! I mean that is not literally what people are saying but it seems to me pride and ego are the real arguments here.
 
I just thought about something too while I was at work**. It seems alot of the arguements against women working really could be summed up as Mens pride and ego**. I mean does anyone else see that in some of these comments? Like oh no if women work and have equal value to men our egos will be damaged!! I mean that is not literally what people are saying but it seems to me pride and ego are the real arguments here.

Yep – I’ve been suspecting that – for quite some time. Pride – ego – and domination/control of women.
 
Yep – I’ve been suspecting that – for quite some time. Pride – ego – and domination/control of women.
I suspect you interpret this in the same way. In any case, men can easily “refute” this “argument” by dismissing it as a product of sheer penis envy. Then neither side ever has to deal with the other rationally. We can all just shame each other and subversively fight an endless Oppressor/Victim dialectical battle for manipulative control.
 
I suspect you interpret this in the same way. In any case, men can easily “refute” this “argument” by dismissing it as a product of sheer penis envy. Then neither side ever has to deal with the other rationally. We can all just shame each other and subversively fight an endless Oppressor/Victim dialectical battle for manipulative control.

If you want to discuss the problems the Church has with those nuns – there probably is a thread for that already in progress somewhere on this site.
 
Portrait, I thougt of you this weekend while I was listening to a talk by Father John Ricardo. He said that almost all of the problems that we have in modern society (abortion, falling apart of the family etc.) finds it cause in absent and abusive fathers. Would you agree with this? You say that everything wrong in modern society is caused by feminists. I would hope that you wouldn’t also blame absent and abusive fathers on anything other than absent and abusive fathers.
 
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