Where did the anti-family vibe come from?

[Cat]

I have really no idea what you are talking about. The vast majority of people I know are or would love to be married with kids and have a stable career and nice house. If anything, it is the American Dream itself.

I have never heard any negative comments or hatefulness towards this type of life.

It depends on what crowd you run with, and what media you are tuned into.

You apparently are fortunate to be involved with a crowd of friends, acquaintances, and work associates who affirm family life. And you’re fortunate that whatever media you allow into your life is also affirming of family, and whichever celebrities (if any) that you follow,are affirming of family.

Sometimes we have to be selective of who and what we allow into our lives. We can’t help occasionally being involved with people and media that have a negative impact on our belief system.

This happens in the workplace–we can’t count on having everyone in our workplace to be conservative, orthodox Catholic, unless we work for a diocese! And we can’t just quit our job every time we come across someone or something that jars us.

But we CAN try hard to minimize our contact with people or media who are opposed to all of our values and beliefs. Yes, we have to be in the world in order to minister to others. But we do not have to admit these people into our intimate circle of friends. If we do, we have to make sure that they are OK with our value system, and we have to be willing to tolerate their value system as well.

And we certainly shouldn’t saturate our lives with negative influences, anti-Christian media (music, theater, television, visual art, etc.) and friends (?) who denigrate all that we hold precious. Why would we do this to ourselves and our families? Why not fill our lives with positive people and media?

 

[Calliso]

She is not obliged. But she seems to represent the worldview the OP is discussing: seing family as something that constricts personal freedom. And personal freedom defind as constantly focusing on oneself and one’s needs and wants **is a part **of the anti-family vibe. Becasue having a family is demanding, children don’t allow you to focus on yourself to that extent anymore. It is hard.

These things can be expressed in a subtle way, for example by calling the lifestyle ‘child-free’. You know, like being cancer-free or STDs free, or having a smoke-free home. Free of things that are bad for us, that constrict us. Language is so powerful, don’t you think?

I see what you are saying. Personally I use the term childfree to basically say that a choose to be childless. I could use the term I am childless but when you say that people tend to think what you really mean is that you can;t have children. So using the term childfree makes it really clear that I simply donlt want children. I donlt think children/having a family is bad for people. But for various reasons far more then I listed in this thread its just not something that I could handle. And I know my reasons listed here may seem selfish and all about me me me. But actually they are kinda about the potential kids as well. I mean I know I would not make a good parent so that is one reason I choose not to become a parent. I mean even if I decide in the future that hey maybe I do kinda want to have kids. I would still likely make the choice not to for the sake of these kids. There are just some people in this world that shouldn;t have kids period and I admit I am probably one of them. So yes my reasons may seem like I am only thinking about me but thats not true I am thinking about my hypothetical kids and my husband as well.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

I see what you are saying. Personally I use the term childfree to basically say that a choose to be childless. I could use the term I am childless but when you say that people tend to think what you really mean is that you can;t have children. So using the term childfree makes it really clear that I simply donlt want children. I donlt think children/having a family is bad for people. But for various reasons far more then I listed in this thread its just not something that I could handle. And I know my reasons listed here may seem selfish and all about me me me. But actually they are kinda about the potential kids as well. I mean I know I would not make a good parent so that is one reason I choose not to become a parent. I mean even if I decide in the future that hey maybe I do kinda want to have kids. I would still likely make the choice not to for the sake of these kids. There are just some people in this world that shouldn;t have kids period and I admit I am probably one of them. So yes my reasons may seem like I am only thinking about me but thats not true I am thinking about my hypothetical kids and my husband as well.

OK, I’m back on the thread despite my dramatic exit in the previous post, had to reply to this.

Thank you for clarifying. I understand what you are saying. Also, I see you are not Catholic. I understand that people have a variety of reasons when making certain decisions, including whether to have children. I just responded to what you wrote in your first post, without knowing the whole story. I’m sorry if I offended you.

 

[Debora123]

It is a dream for many people to have a family and settle down… someday.

Have you seen the leap list commercials for the CR-V? The commercials feature twenty somethings envisioning the things they want to accomplish before they make a big leap, like getting married or having kids. One man says, “Before I have kids, I want to: fly a plane, go sailing, go mountain unicycling, learn to pick the banjo." One woman who has just been proposed to says before marriage she wants to “like hike the Appalachian trail or something”

I think the commercials capture the attitude that the OP is talking about. Many people have disposable income and a desire to delay marriage and children to accomplish, like, stuff. And even when they do get married they have a unique view towards marriage and children as offering some sort of personal fulfillment. Not that they hate either marriage or children, it’s just that they have a very unique view towards it as a culmination of all the cool stuff they will accomplish in their lives.

Yes, I have seen the commercial. But this is where I think people are being way too sensitive.

Just because some people may want to get married and have kids “some day” or want to do certain things or accomplish certain things beforehand, doesn’t mean they have a negative, hateful view of the family.

So some people want to do certain things before they settle down, so what? Some people may not feel ready to get married and have kids yet, so what?

Sorry, I just don’t see all this hate/negativity people here are talking about and I suspect a lot of it is just delusion and over sensitivity.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Sorry, I just don’t see all this hate/negativity people here are talking about and I suspect a lot of it is just delusion and over sensitivity.

Maybe you hang out with people who are mature and have family values. That’s great, I wish I had your experience.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I can only offer anecdotal evidence, but this is what i see on Facebook. For some jobs, The glass ceiling has been broken and there are some very ambitious women out there who are pushing boundaries. Obviously being a SAHM is not a viable option for them. Kids will never be a part of their life.

Divorce is another common characteristic. Several people marry their colllege sweetheart and for whatever reason it didnt work out. No kids involved but the divorcees usually take on the “im the best auntie” role. They get their kid fix that way and still get to party with friends. The divorced guys tend to dissappear for awhile only to resurface with a sports car and a girlfriend a few years their junior.

Ive also seen alot of younger folks look at marriage and kids with complete apathy. The twenty somrthing cousins of my wife fall into thismcategory. In some sense they are stil living with their parents like teenagers.

I dont really see much in the way of anti-family from any of these people. In many cases the people without kids are involved with other peoples’ kids. They have just decided that doing it full time like me isnt for them.

So to sum it up, the lack of a traditional family isnt really anti family, but can bemconsidered a product of several things: ambition/opportunity, easy divorce, apathy, and low lease payments on luxury cars.

Sorry for bad typng. Doing this in bed on my ipad with two snoring kids.

So in a way, we may actually be living in a post-family society. Well, we’re not going to continue long if that ends up being the case.

 

[Debora123]

Maybe you hang out with people who are mature and have family values. That’s great, I wish I had your experience.

No. I have a pretty diverse group of friends. Beyond my group of friends there are people who I talk to everyday because they work with me or go to school with me.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

No. I have a pretty diverse group of friends. Beyond my group of friends there are people who I talk to everyday because they work with me or go to school with me.

Well, it could be that they are all mature (regardless of age) and have family values. I have spent several years surrounded by 30+ year olds who were extremely immature in that regard.

 

[akela135]

No, having children does not “sabotage” your existing relationships. This is exactly the attitude the OP was referring to–that people feel children are an obstacle that will just get in the way of other things. I would argue that if you really feel too immature to have a child, you were too immature to get married, especially in the Catholic Church, where one of your wedding vows was openness to children.

You have made the assumption that I won’t be having children. I said I don’t want kids because I won’t care for them properly. Not that I won’t have children. I vowed to be open to children, as did my husband, and we meant it.

We look at it this way. We are not mature enough for children, but 16 year olds in highschool are usually considered too immature for children but have them anyway, and if a 16 year old can do it then two married adults with college degrees and steady jobs can do it too. Like I said, I will probably not put my child first but I have decided that is okay. After all, I’m more prepared than a highschool student, but less prepared than someone who actually wants kids so my child won’t be the worst off.

What makes me feel guilty is I think a child’s parents should put the child first. I am sad that the children I have won’t get this kind of loving relationship from their parents but I really can’t imagine telling a friend that I can’t help them because I have a child. So other people first, child second.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Like I said, I will probably not put my child first but I have decided that is okay.

So other people first, child second.

Wow. Just wow. You have decided it is ok. Lovely.

Neglect is considered abuse these days. And let me tell you dear, as a mother of a toddler and a baby, you need to give those kids 200% because that is what they need. Children are not toys that you put away when it is inconvenient.

 

[akela135]

Wow. Just wow. You have decided it is ok. Lovely.

Neglect is considered abuse these days. And let me tell you dear, as a mother of a toddler and a baby, you need to give those kids 200% because that is what they need. Children are not toys that you put away when it is inconvenient.

Okay I’m really confused. I said I don’t want kids because I’m not ready for them. I say I want to wait to have children until I’d make a good parent and I get told that is selfish of me. That I’m being selfish by wanting to wait until I’m a good parent. That I shouldn’t have gotten married if I didn’t want a child tomorrow. The thing is I want to have children with DH and no one else. I want to be with DH forever and one day have his kids. However if I had those kids tomorrow they would suffer so it was selfish of me to marry.

So we decided that we’d just have to not wait until we were ready, we’d just have to dive in and hope for the best. If the child suffered so be it because it would be selfish to wait. Now I’m being told that it is selfish to have a child that won’t be cared for properly? Which makes sense, I thought that would be the case, so I should wait until I’m ready for children? But isn’t that selfish too?

The bottom line is. If you find the person you want to have kids with one day and you want to be married to them you don’t have many options. You have option 1) stay engaged for 5, 10 or how many years it takes for you to be ready for children, being in a near occasion of sin because it is hard to have a relationship that committed for so long, especially when you are ready to be married to the person. Or 2) get married to protect you and the one you love from sin and start having children right away (despite not being ready) or else you weren’t ready to be married!

 

[CountrySinger]

No. I think that answer has some rash judgement in it. There are people who do not have children because they think the world is too bad to hand it over to another generation that will have to bear the brunt of whatever catastrophe is only 30 years away, because they are worried about the population getting too high, because they are worried they will be bad parents, because they waited a long time to get married and are afraid they are too old to be good parents, or too poor, and so on. I think those are misguided reasons, and too fearful and given over to anxiety, but they are not hedonistic. Rather, these people are foregoing childbearing because they think the primary thing in the “pro” column is that they personally would benefit from the child in their house and the adult child to take care of them. They are trying to be unselfish.

Those are many reasons I don’t want children. I would want to give them the best. My mom was 36 when I was born, and it was hard having a older mother. People always thought my mom was my grandmother, it was so embarassing. Why subject a child to it?

Plus, my friends with kids regret having them. Kids deserve better than that. Some are my friends are very intelligent, and they regret spending their time with their kids. They are not bad people, and if they do that, there is no way I would avoid it. My own brother emotionally neglected his son, and it has had dire consequences on my nephew. If someone related to me could do it, and I’m just like him, leads to the obvious conclusion.

I know I would be a horrid mother. I don’t have the personality for it. I would raise the next generation of cynical and sarcastic kids. I used to be a teacher, and seeing what parents did to their children made me sick (abuse was very common).

And this is not even going into health reasons.

And I’m selfish for not having kids.

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

I got married 5 years ago to my wonderful wife and now we have 2 beautiful children. We have a nice house with a big backyard in a neighborhood full of other kids and we have a great sense of community here. I’m not rich (enlisted military) but I make a decent amount and it’s stable so I can keep my family well taken care of. I love life. Seriously, this is the happiest I have ever been.

I wrote that not to brag, but to lay out the next part of my post. Why on earth would anyone be against this kind of life, or not want it, or make disparaging remarks and prefer to be single or at least married-with-no-kids? I just don’t get it, it totally boggles my mind. There is such a strong anti-family sentiment especially amongst younger people and intellectual types.

I don’t understand this general idea prevalent in society, in some parts more than others (IMO, the attitude is more widespread in non-Latin Europe), that glorifies being single and living for yourself. How does such an unnatural and abhorrent ideal come to be so widely accepted?

It’s just not normal- pretty much all other cultures in the world glorify family and hold it to be life’s greatest good. I studied Chinese for 3 years in college and the character for “good” consists of a woman, a child, and a roof. I’m not making this up.

It doesn’t make sense historically, nor does it make sense experientially… I love my kids. Sure they irritate me sometimes, but I love them beyond words and they bring so much joy to my life. How could anyone not want joy, love and happiness and prefer self absorption and a very shallow kind of autonomy? So many people seem to want to hang on to a teenage lifestyle well into their 30s now, what a depressing existence!

Please… someone help me understand where this idea came from, why so many people believe in it, and what the heck is wrong with the world!

I think you should thank God for allowing you to live a life that allows you to feel happy and fulfilled in your vocation. I think you should thank God for the privilege you have - that most of us here have - that enabled you to actually discern your vocation because billions of people in today’s world, most of the peoples in today’s world in fact, do not enjoy such privilege. I think you should pray every day that your spouse is as happy and fulfilled in their vocation as you are. I think you should thank God that your fertility and your children are a wellspring of joy to you and your spouse. You were and are truly blessed.

And I think you need to stop wondering about other people, people who for whatever reason are not living the life you lead. Some of these others are fulfilled in their lives; some of them are not. Some of them are knowingly leading ungodly lives; a good many of them of doing their level best of follow the path laid out by their religion/creed/belief system. Some of them enjoy similar privileges that enable them to truly discern their life choices. A good many of them - far too many of them - have very little choice in who/if they marry, when they have children, how much education they and their children can attain, where they live, what kind of health care they receive, and many more choices that we people of privilege make for ourselves every day.

Look at it this way - the world you were born into was a big factor that allows you to have the great family you have today. With that perspective, is this world really such a bad place?

Luna

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

You have made the assumption that I won’t be having children. I said I don’t want kids because I won’t care for them properly. Not that I won’t have children. I vowed to be open to children, as did my husband, and we meant it.

We look at it this way. We are not mature enough for children, but 16 year olds in highschool are usually considered too immature for children but have them anyway, and if a 16 year old can do it then two married adults with college degrees and steady jobs can do it too. Like I said, I will probably not put my child first but I have decided that is okay. After all, I’m more prepared than a highschool student, but less prepared than someone who actually wants kids so my child won’t be the worst off.

What makes me feel guilty is I think a child’s parents should put the child first. I am sad that the children I have won’t get this kind of loving relationship from their parents but I really can’t imagine telling a friend that I can’t help them because I have a child. So other people first, child second.

I find it amazing that you have simply predetermined that you will not care for your children properly. That is utterly unbelievable to me, as well as that you have decided even if you do have children, they will be of secondary importance to your friends. That right there is NOT openness to children, and it is not raising them in accordance with Christ’s Church, which does not teach you to put them second.

 

[akela135]

I find it amazing that you have simply predetermined that you will not care for your children properly. That is utterly unbelievable to me, as well as that you have decided even if you do have children, they will be of secondary importance to your friends. That right there is NOT openness to children, and it is not raising them in accordance with Christ’s Church, which does not teach you to put them second.

I thought being open to life just mean you could not use contraception and you could only use NFP with a serious or grave reason after consulting with a priest? So if you just let babies come as they may but would prefer if they waited a few years until you were more prepared you are not being open to life?

And what I really meant by “putting friends first” was that if I had $100 dollars to my name until next pay check and I was going to use that money to buy school supplies and food for my child when a friend called and said that due to finacial hardship her landlord said “pay rent tomorrow or be evicted” and she didn’t know where she was going to get the money or how things would work out, It would be selfish to say “I can’t help you, I have to think of my child.” I would give the money I had to her so that way she would not end up homeless.

Or if the church was asking for extra donations for a charity organization and I had an extra amount of money and was going to use it for a birthday party for my child it would be selfish to say “Sorry church my child needs to have a party more than your charity needs the money” so I would give the extra to the church.

I feel that given this it is better to stay in a position where I can help out only at the expensive of myself (and my DH whom agrees) than at the expense of a small child who will not understand this reasoning.

I think donating money to charity is not selfish, but choosing to have a child and then not donate as much to charity because the child needs the money now is selfish. I would feel guilty if I had to give less because I chose to have a child.

 

[estesbob]

I got married 5 years ago to my wonderful wife and now we have 2 beautiful children. We have a nice house with a big backyard in a neighborhood full of other kids and we have a great sense of community here. I’m not rich (enlisted military) but I make a decent amount and it’s stable so I can keep my family well taken care of. I love life. Seriously, this is the happiest I have ever been.

I wrote that not to brag, but to lay out the next part of my post. Why on earth would anyone be against this kind of life, or not want it, or make disparaging remarks and prefer to be single or at least married-with-no-kids? I just don’t get it, it totally boggles my mind. There is such a strong anti-family sentiment especially amongst younger people and intellectual types.

I don’t understand this general idea prevalent in society, in some parts more than others (IMO, the attitude is more widespread in non-Latin Europe), that glorifies being single and living for yourself. How does such an unnatural and abhorrent ideal come to be so widely accepted?

It’s just not normal- pretty much all other cultures in the world glorify family and hold it to be life’s greatest good. I studied Chinese for 3 years in college and the character for “good” consists of a woman, a child, and a roof. I’m not making this up.

It doesn’t make sense historically, nor does it make sense experientially… I love my kids. Sure they irritate me sometimes, but I love them beyond words and they bring so much joy to my life. How could anyone not want joy, love and happiness and prefer self absorption and a very shallow kind of autonomy? So many people seem to want to hang on to a teenage lifestyle well into their 30s now, what a depressing existence!

Please… someone help me understand where this idea came from, why so many people believe in it, and what the heck is wrong with the world!

In Humanne Vitae John Paul VI told us exactly what the contraception society would lead to. What you descibe is the results.

 

[EasterJoy]

You have made the assumption that I won’t be having children. I said I don’t want kids because I won’t care for them properly. Not that I won’t have children. I vowed to be open to children, as did my husband, and we meant it.

We look at it this way. We are not mature enough for children, but 16 year olds in highschool are usually considered too immature for children but have them anyway, and if a 16 year old can do it then two married adults with college degrees and steady jobs can do it too. Like I said, I will probably not put my child first but I have decided that is okay. After all, I’m more prepared than a highschool student, but less prepared than someone who actually wants kids so my child won’t be the worst off.

What makes me feel guilty is I think a child’s parents should put the child first. I am sad that the children I have won’t get this kind of loving relationship from their parents but I really can’t imagine telling a friend that I can’t help them because I have a child. So other people first, child second.

It is fairly easy to fear that you will fail someone you haven’t met yet.

Speaking of 16 year olds, an exercise that is very common in high school and even late middle school is to have the students “care for a baby”. This goes all the way from having to keep a 10 lb bag of flour with you at all times all the way to electronic dolls that cry if their needs aren’t met and register the treatment they received on computer chips. The goal is to impress upon them that parenthood requires real commitment, but the message is that parenthood is a huge drag. Why? Because no doll, let alone a sack of flour, can stand in for a human being.

This exercise had to be invented, though, because so many students and even married couples have no experience whatsoever with babies or young children. They’ve never had to take care of anyone that young in their lives, not for 10 minutes, let alone for a weekend.

I remember when we married, the priest said: If we really knew what we were getting into when we agreed to marriage or whatever else we were going to do with our lives, we’d never have the courage to do it. If you take it one day at a time, you can do it, but seeing how big the task without having started to get the skills and experience you’ll need to do it would be too scary.

You don’t start with the selflessness, you don’t start with the skills, you don’t start with the experience, you don’t start before you even get pregnant knowing the real person you’ll be dealing with. You learn. People have done it for thousands of years, there’s only been one perfect family, and even they lost their boy in a large city for three days. You survive, and usually your child grows up to wave at you from the endzone, and the first thing he thinks to say to the camera is what? “Hi, Mom!!”

It is good that we think about safety nowadays and preventing bad outcomes, but a bad side effect has been that people fear too much now. They fear failure, they fear hard times, they fear not being perfect at what they set out to do. We have more resources than ever before, but we feel more afraid we’ll fall short. We’re both safer and more anxious than ever. That’s really too bad.

 

[Baelor]

The attitude **discussed by the OP **is of seing family as a burden, as a problem almost. What has happened is that people delay marriage until they tick a number of things off the list, and marriage and children being just another thing on the list that comes at the end. And there is so much negative propaganda about family these days. People buy into that junk. Is that a Catholic way? I don’t think so.

I agree with you completely. I also have a huge problem with people who view family as an accessory, which happens especially in the highest echelons of society (trust me, I know). And yet, the OP’s rant also extended to anyone who did not want a family, including single persons. He should have been more specific if that was not the case.

 

[mellowcalico]

… but I really can’t imagine telling a friend that I can’t help them because I have a child. So other people first, child second.

It’s hard to imagine because you haven’t experienced that love yet… that mother child bond. It’s hard to explain really. But think of it this way, before you fell in love the first time with a boy (or man depending on what age you first fell in love), could you imagine that love… I mean really imagine and feel it? Probably not.

Trust me, if you become a mom, that love will fall into place and then you will understand. You don’t love your husband less… or your friends. You love them all differently.

And your examples… you didn’t put anyone else before your child really… you just spent money differently. It didn’t mean you loved that child any less or even put someone else “first.” What money you spend on your child won’t effect the bond or love between you. I think it’s an easy mistake to make (considering how consumer oriented our culture can be).

So don’t sweat it and don’t worry

 

[EasterJoy]

I think the OP was trying to gain understanding of the people who actually think of kids as a drag, and I think Juliane was trying to offer an explanation about those people.

As a single 35-year-old myself, I don’t feel that either of them are talking about me. As you and others have mentioned, there are plenty of other reasons why people are single. Perhaps I’m wrong, but I don’t see the OP or Juliane as denying that, I just see the OP’s intended direction as focusing in on this one (of many) reasons for being single.

Accusing an entire group of people as being selfish hedonists is a bit harsh…and what exceptions did she make? What qualification on the blanket statement? There are a lot of people who grew up with bad parenting, and they think they’d be bad parents. There are people who have other reasons that aren’t about not being tied down themselves, too. There are people with friends and family who are verbally “positive” about having kids, but who don’t walk the walk they’re talking. That breeds cynicism about the enterprise.

Are there people out there who don’t want children because they are certain they would find no joy in a life in which they’d be finding their joy in meeting someone else’s needs, let alone being responsible for anyone but themselves 24/7/365? Of course there are. There are people out there who hate children, and who openly resent ever having to have children in their presence at all, because you can’t just act any way you like around a child. How can I deny that, when there are people who will say just as much about themselves? I’m just saying that it is rash to pronounce that everyone in the group that isn’t pursuing a life with children of their own can be described using the words “selfish” and “hedonist” let alone “pure and simple”.

Juliane does not remotely have the information needed to hand down a judgement like that. That’s all I’m saying.