Where did we go wrong?

[ERose]

What if you didn’t happen to be in that particular part of Jerusalem on Pentecost? The Apostles went out to preach, sure, but it’s not like they primarily doorknocked or stood on street corners - they started with the synagogues because the Jews were most likely to be receptive to their message, and slowly worked their way to reaching out to the Gentiles.

I think you’re seriously misguided and very insulting to the founders and workers at EWTN and CAF to call what they do ‘happenstance’.

It is beyond belief that you would apply that term to them - there’s nothing at all happenstantial about creating and running a TV, radio or internet site and magazine publication, making the shows or producing the information that are broadcast or printed, and fighting to get the broadcast licences, equipment and other infrastructure you need.

Here’s a litmus test - if Nero was alive today would he be hauling Mother Angelica and Karl Keating off to prison or execution? Answer can’t be anything other than yes, surely. Those are two very influential and highly dangerous-in-a-good-way people.

I do not think that Joey was referring to the network as happenstance, but having non-believers or lukewarm Catholics changing their dial to EWTN to watch it.

In other words his point is to watch EWTN requires the person to have cable or sat. Then it requires to person to make the conscious effort to watch to network.

In my opinion active evangelizing of Catholics starts in the pulpit primarily and our dioceses/parishes need to make a conscious effort to train their active Catholics to be able to evangelize properly.

We always pick on the JW and Mormans for going door to door, but how many people do they get from that technique? I do not know to be honest, but if we had more Catholics that had the ability to witness to others when opportunity arises then how many people would be standing in front of the church on Easter Vigil to enter the church? That requires training for the most part which Evangelicals are much better at than we are.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Those are passive methods too, not proactive…Evangelism via happenstance. EWTN, if you happen to have cable. Both radios if you happen to live in an area that provides it.

Radio and Television are “passive” methods? Karl Keating? Father Corapi? I’m confused then. What is it that the Catholic Church is NOT doing that these other churches are??

 

[ERose]

Radio and Television are “passive” methods? Karl Keating? Father Corapi? I’m confused then. What is it that the Catholic Church is NOT doing that these other churches are??

That is a good question and one that the Church needs to find out. Evangelical and Pentecostal Denominations are the fastest growing body of “Christians” in the World right now. And we really need to find out why.

 

[Cattitude]

Those are passive methods too, not proactive…Evangelism via happenstance. EWTN, if you happen to have cable. Both radios if you happen to live in an area that provides it.

I can also see the point here. I never even knew what EWTN was until a couple of months ago. I can get Catholic Radio only in my car, and only in certain parts of town since there are only 2 towers in Northern MI, where I live.

Another point I would make is that there is a lot of anti-Catholic sentiment, depending on where you are. Not that its an excuse, but I does make things difficult when people already have their biased opinions against Catholicism.

So if you are going to evangelize, you better know your stuff. Combine that with poor cathecism (like what I had growing up) and you get no where fast.

The real question is what do we do about it?

 

[MarcoPolo]

That is a good question and one that the Church needs to find out. Evangelical and Pentecostal Denominations are the fastest growing body of “Christians” in the World right now. And we really need to find out why.

I had asked Joey what are “active” methods because he stated as fact that EWTN, Catholic Answers, Relevant Radio are “passive” methods of evangelizing.

Do you agree?

And what are these Christian denoms doing that Catholics SHOULD be doing?

 

[ERose]

I had asked Joey what are “active” methods because he stated as fact that EWTN, Catholic Answers, Relevant Radio are “passive” methods of evangelizing.

Do you agree?

And what are these Christian denoms doing that Catholics SHOULD be doing?

I’m sorry for the confusion I was referring to your last sentence in your previous post. Concerning the last question in this post quoted post is I don’t have that answer to be honest all I know is that right now they are winning on the missionary or evangelizing front.

Concerning the active/passive method discussion, the only thing that I can comment on is that if you are not an active Catholic who likes the shows that come on EWTN; or a Christian looking for something to use against Catholics; or someone who can get those networks, then you are not going to listen or watch EWTN or the Catholic Radio Network. That is just the fact. Do they help? I am sure in some cases. Are they the answer to evangelizing the world? I would say no.

What I am saying is Church needs more. I think that we have become complacent with cradle Catholics and being born and raised in the Catholic Church and getting the converts who find their way into the Church.

I am a convert and the reason why I converted had nothing to do with any message I got from the Catholic Church. There was no Catholic that showed up at my door, I seen no advertizements, no tracts, never got invited to a Mass or to any other Church function, at the time nobody I knew was Catholic (actually discovered that people I knew for years were Catholic and never knew it), etc. I found my way through God alone. Only He brought me to the Church for to be honest He probably couldn’t find a Catholic in my neck of the woods willing to help me get home.

Sorry for the rambling, but I really think that the Church as a whole needs to look at this part of itself for it is not doing a very good job right now getting the message out.

I always believed that if 90% of the Catholics that go to church each Sunday found the fire that many Evangelicals and Pentecostals have for their Church it wouldn’t be long before there was only One Church, One Faith, One Body of Christian. IMHO.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Radio and Television are “passive” methods? Karl Keating? Father Corapi? I’m confused then. What is it that the Catholic Church is NOT doing that these other churches are??

They are getting out there going door to door. They are making their presence known. That is what we use to do. The Church sent Priests and Missionaries out to build churches and evangelize to the unsaved.

How are we reaching those non-believers that do not have cable TV.

How are we reaching out to those non-believers that do not have radio or niether of those two radio stations are available in the listening area.

Even if the non-believer had both Cable and the radio stations, it is happenstance for them to tune in.

Even on EWTN how often are we telling non-believers that they risk eternal separation from God?

 

[JoeyWarren]

Sorry for the rambling, but I really think that the Church as a whole needs to look at this part of itself for it is not doing a very good job right now getting the message out.

I always believed that if 90% of the Catholics that go to church each Sunday found the fire that many Evangelicals and Pentecostals have for their Church it wouldn’t be long before there was only One Church, One Faith, One Body of Christian. IMHO.

AMEN!

 

[rtconstant]

I understand this thread completely. As a convert I to am one of those that only came to the Church because God led me. Now I think there are understandable reasons for that. For one as mentioned Catholicism evangelized Europe and Northern Africa within the first centuries and then it became a cultural assumption. I think this led to a decline in the evangelistic spirit of the individual Catholic.

In the modern day Catholics are also at certain practical disadvantages in evangelism with Evangelicals. For one an evangelical can bring someone off the street into full communion with his denomination in a single half an hour visit (potentially). That means that if person feels an emotional connection they can “get it all” in a matter of minutes.

We on the other hand present them at least a year of study and education to enter The Church. I’m not saying our process is bad actually I think its good but it is a practical disadvantage in the short term.

Now in terms of improving evangelism I think we have to first give people reasons to be at Church other than Mass. Evangelical denominations often offer activities for the family for almost every day of the week. This causes the parishoner to see the Church as the center of their family life instead of a place you go one hour a week. Bible studies, regular adoration times, various formation programs and socials can make a big difference.

Consistancy is another thing. In Catholicism we tend to have these “seasons” for programs. On three months, off one month back for two, off for 3 weeks. Consistant programs allow people to really make something a regular part of their life. If you get someone in for 3 months of adult faith formation you might lose them in the month off. We need to make programs not only available but we need to help people make them a habit.

Also, I don’t know how it is everywhere but it would be nice if at least some days of the week daily mass was held at a time when working people could attend. I’d love to got mass everyday but most of the time its held during times most people have to be at work. This might be different in some areas though.

The above could help the Church to activate those that already attend and possibly instruct them better. With more activities there is more to invite those that don’t attend to come and do. Also, while non-Catholic can’t take communion in mass they can join Bible studies and attend other functions. As they do that and get to know people at the parish then they may decide to inquire further.

I don’t know these are just the things that I’ve thought about.

 

[lak611]

Now in terms of improving evangelism I think we have to first give people reasons to be at Church other than Mass. Evangelical denominations often offer activities for the family for almost every day of the week. This causes the parishoner to see the Church as the center of their family life instead of a place you go one hour a week. Bible studies, regular adoration times, various formation programs and socials can make a big difference.

I think the key to doing this is to show people that Church is not just an obligation, but a blessing. Too many Catholics just go on Sunday to “fulfill their obligation” and forget about their faith the other six days of the week. I used to be one, then I left completely for five years. I came back after reading the Bible. Then I wanted to learn more. I joined the adult education classes, a Bible study group, and decided to volunteer at an ecumenical meal for the poor. Once I got past the “obligation” mentality, like I was just going to “get my ticket punched”, my faith became a priority to me.

 

[as-a-child]

That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, as we also are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me; that they may be made perfect in one: and the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast also loved me.

From the great schism to the notion of multiply by dividing, when we forgot what this verse means, That’s what went wrong.

Christians, until they are one again, will not be a good witness to the world. The days of entire nations and peoples converting our gone.

 

[po18guy]

I think the protestant churches definitely deserve credit for their efforts in this area (and they’re not trying to poach Catholics in the UK which I get a sense may happen in the US?). So good question; and I wonder the same.

Michael, the American “wild west” has spawned hundreds, if not thousands of different Protestant denominations. It has become a feeding frenzy! And many of them regularly try to raid the Catholic church, as she is the biggest, with the most marginal members. Remember also, that increased membership pays the pastor’s wages, so the motivation to increase the congregation is constant.

One priest told the congregation that he had 100 Altar boys with candles waiting to escort the early leavers outside, since they carried the Body of Christ within them. That solved the problem, at least temporarily…

Christ’s peace.

 

[LilyM]

I’m sorry for the confusion I was referring to your last sentence in your previous post. Concerning the last question in this post quoted post is I don’t have that answer to be honest all I know is that right now they are winning on the missionary or evangelizing front.

Concerning the active/passive method discussion, the only thing that I can comment on is that if you are not an active Catholic who likes the shows that come on EWTN; or a Christian looking for something to use against Catholics; or someone who can get those networks, then you are not going to listen or watch EWTN or the Catholic Radio Network. That is just the fact. Do they help? I am sure in some cases. Are they the answer to evangelizing the world? I would say no.

What I am saying is Church needs more. I think that we have become complacent with cradle Catholics and being born and raised in the Catholic Church and getting the converts who find their way into the Church.

I am a convert and the reason why I converted had nothing to do with any message I got from the Catholic Church. There was no Catholic that showed up at my door, I seen no advertizements, no tracts, never got invited to a Mass or to any other Church function, at the time nobody I knew was Catholic (actually discovered that people I knew for years were Catholic and never knew it), etc. I found my way through God alone. Only He brought me to the Church for to be honest He probably couldn’t find a Catholic in my neck of the woods willing to help me get home.

Sorry for the rambling, but I really think that the Church as a whole needs to look at this part of itself for it is not doing a very good job right now getting the message out.

I always believed that if 90% of the Catholics that go to church each Sunday found the fire that many Evangelicals and Pentecostals have for their Church it wouldn’t be long before there was only One Church, One Faith, One Body of Christian. IMHO.

And if I don’t like Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen et al I’m not going to watch them either. For that matter I know many people of many denominations as well as non-Christian faiths, only one has ever invited me to their church, and that only once or twice.

It doesn’t mean these people are not actively evangelising, just means no-one can or will reach 100% of the people, and they’re rightly focusing on learning and practicing their own faith first, since no-one can evangelise well without doing so.

For that matter, the Greeks of Athens who weren’t interested in Paul didn’t come to listen to him either, I’m sure. It’s not like he rammed himself down all their throats, no-one was ever converted who wasn’t at least open in the first place.

 

[Janee]

I often wonder the same thing too!

I see a lot of people living the mass just after only communion, I believe is because they do not have the basic knowledge that it is wise to receive the three most important blessing in the church, the first which is receive at the beginning of the mass, the second: the Liturgy of the word and Eucharist and the final blessing come in the closing of the mass.

Also in the church many members fails to join societies that will build them up spiritually, the catholic church is bless with so many societies but less members because the catholic faithful do not see the important of such societies and also new convents are most times not welcome in the church like other protestants churches that welcome there members and also assign visitation and fellow-up to such new members

As Catholic we go wrong when we fail to evangelize fellow catholic on how important it is for each and every one of us to stay till the end of the Mass and share our experiences with our friends in the church.

You are not wrong, is just that we stop caring about each other, if only we could just care a little just like the disciples of old, that made it possible for them to be referred to as Christians, because they were Christ like, we could re-enkindle back what we have lost as catholics.

I pray that the Good Lord will grant us the desire and zeal to right the wrong we have done. In Jesus name I pray, Amen.

Glory to Jesus, Honor to Mary

 

[ERose]

And if I don’t like Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen et al I’m not going to watch them either. For that matter I know many people of many denominations as well as non-Christian faiths, only one has ever invited me to their church, and that only once or twice.

It doesn’t mean these people are not actively evangelising, just means no-one can or will reach 100% of the people, and they’re rightly focusing on learning and practicing their own faith first, since no-one can evangelise well without doing so.

For that matter, the Greeks of Athens who weren’t interested in Paul didn’t come to listen to him either, I’m sure. It’s not like he rammed himself down all their throats, no-one was ever converted who wasn’t at least open in the first place.

Lily, I don’t trully know what the situation is like in Australia, but living in the south of the United States where it is predominately Baptist and Pentecostal, you have to deal with them all of the time. The groups actively proselytize anyone who is not a member of the denomination. Pentecostals especially for they are trained from childhood on how to proselytize and it is emphasized in there denomination.

Also I am not saying that we should ram anything down people’s throat. What I have learned is that God opens the hearts and minds of people. We are just instruments to be used by him. The problem is if do not have the ability or desire to be an instrument then God won’t call you to be one and then He has to use extraordinary methods to convert the mind and heart of someone like me.

 

[MarcoPolo]

They are getting out there going door to door. They are making their presence known.

Well, going door to door may or may not work. The JWs aren’t flourishing just because they knock on doors. I also do not think you can say Catholic use of mass media (like EWTN, Catholic Answers, Father Corapi, Relevant Radio, The Passion of the Christ, etc…) are exactly “passive”. If you want to say we can do that and more fine. But those are active means.

I found my way through God alone. Only He brought me to the Church for to be honest He probably couldn’t find a Catholic in my neck of the woods willing to help me get home.

If you spoke to no Catholic about the Church, how did you come to the Catholic Church? Did God give you a private revelation?

 

[LilyM]

Lily, I don’t trully know what the situation is like in Australia, but living in the south of the United States where it is predominately Baptist and Pentecostal, you have to deal with them all of the time. The groups actively proselytize anyone who is not a member of the denomination. Pentecostals especially for they are trained from childhood on how to proselytize and it is emphasized in there denomination.

Also I am not saying that we should ram anything down people’s throat. What I have learned is that God opens the hearts and minds of people. We are just instruments to be used by him. The problem is if do not have the ability or desire to be an instrument then God won’t call you to be one and then He has to use extraordinary methods to convert the mind and heart of someone like me.

And because these Pentecostals do it it’s right? If a bunch of us went out and held guns to people’s heads to force them to come to our church it’d work, they’d be there, but it wouldn’t be right.

The real question is how many of the people these Pentecostals evangelise, for all their training, are still with that same church 5,10, 20 years later? Not so many, judging by the posts of people here who speak of plenty of church-hopping. The retention rate is much much better for Catholics, for one thing.

In the end all conversion is by God’s grace, ultimately, not our own technique or training. You could say all of it comes from ‘extraordinary’ methods’ then :getholy:

And great fishers of men like St Francis of Assisi know that the best vehicle by far for that grace is the practical example of a life well lived, and not preaching - he said ‘preach the Gospel at all times, if necessary use words’. :yup:

 

[donmaximuso27]

Well, going door to door may or may not work. The JWs aren’t flourishing just because they knock on doors. I also do not think you can say Catholic use of mass media (like EWTN, Catholic Answers, Father Corapi, Relevant Radio, The Passion of the Christ, etc…) are exactly “passive”. If you want to say we can do that and more fine. But those are active means.

If you spoke to no Catholic about the Church, how did you come to the Catholic Church? Did God give you a private revelation?

Let’s not make quick assumptions about converts. I converted to the Church after five years of private research, discernment, and a spiritual journey. During this time, Catholics disussed theology with me, but few talked of evangelizing. The Holy Spirit leads people in many different and mysterious ways.

 

[ERose]

If you spoke to no Catholic about the Church, how did you come to the Catholic Church? Did God give you a private revelation?

To be honest, at the time I knew no one who claimed to be Catholic. Concerning the private revelation question, yes and no.

I grew up in an agnostic family and as such I had very little experience with Christianity growing up. My first exposure to religion was Mythology. Greek, Egyptian, and my favorite Norse. I didn’t worship them, nor believed in them, just enjoyed reading the storys.

My first exposure to Christianity was in a United Pentecostal Church that I was invited to by some friends. I received the Charismatic gifts and became an heavy reader of the Scriptures. Couldn’t get enough reading in a day. Read through the Bible in less than 5 months my first time around. The problem with me reading the Scriptures and me being Pentecostal was that I had no preconditioning from the Church. Also I believe that along with the gift of speaking in tongues, the Holy Spirit gave me other gifts as well. Particularly the gifts of understanding, knowledge and discernment. These three gifts destroyed any opportunity for me to stay in teh Pentecostal Church for what God was teaching me and what the church was teaching me where two different things in many areas. Particularly the Trinity versus Oneness. Of course I didn’t know what the term Trinity meant but my belief in God was evolving that way.

One day at a revival service a woman spoke in tongues in a loud clear voice and after a short time someone interpreted the tongues. The interpreter spoke out “My Children return to me”, twice. Of course a bunch of young children went up to altar call, but something about the message stuck at the roof of my mouth. I knew it meant something different and after some soul searching I left the Pentecostal church and started looking for another.

Anyway I knew a friend that was Baptist and we began having dialogue and I was all set to go to his church Sunday. He and I on a Friday night went to the movies late and the only movie left that night was a horror flick called “The Unholy”. The unholy is a movie about a parish where priests are being killed by a succumbus and a priest who was questioning his faith was sent to check out the problem. Anyway that made me think about the Catholic church and I also recalled in World History about the Catholic church being the first christian church. I asked my friend what he thought about the Catholic church and he said he knew little.

Anyway the following Monday I called the local parish and asked if someone can talk to me about the Catholic church. The priest said come on over and I did. He told me that if I wanted to know about the church then he would give me classes and I joined up.

The biggest evidence I had that I finally found my home is that God through meditation taught me almost everything that the priest was teaching me the week before. I understood the teachings in advance and the priest just verified what I understood. I think that it drove him a little crazy that I didn’t ask alot of questions.

Anyway 6 months later I was received in the Catholic Church and the rest is history. So as you can see yes and no.

 

[ERose]

And because these Pentecostals do it it’s right? If a bunch of us went out and held guns to people’s heads to force them to come to our church it’d work, they’d be there, but it wouldn’t be right.:

They do not hold guns on anybody to get them to go to their church. They just do a real good job of teaching their members how to witness to others and when they do get a new person to show up at their church they go out of their way to make them welcomed. They come up and shake their hands and introduce themselves and hope they have a good experience. Initially they do not force anything on anyone.

The real question is how many of the people these Pentecostals evangelise, for all their training, are still with that same church 5,10, 20 years later? Not so many, judging by the posts of people here who speak of plenty of church-hopping. The retention rate is much much better for Catholics, for one thing. :

That is not really a good question here. The pentecostals do have alot of turnover for there is not alot of substance to their teachings. They can be best discribed as one of those “Better to burn up than to fade away” type of churches.

In the end all conversion is by God’s grace, ultimately, not our own technique or training. You could say all of it comes from ‘extraordinary’ methods’ then :getholy: :

You are correct, the only thing I can add is that God loves to have his grace flow though his children. Remember what Scripture says: “Bringing someone back to Christ covers a multitude of sin.” One of the best indulgences out there is witnessing for Christ.

And great fishers of men like St Francis of Assisi know that the best vehicle by far for that grace is the practical example of a life well lived, and not preaching - he said ‘preach the Gospel at all times, if necessary use words’. :yup:

Yes, but St. Francis did not hide that he was Catholic. All people who met him knew that there was something special about this man.

You are correct that the best way to witness for Christ is by the example you leave. But if people do not know you are Catholic and Christian then what kind of example does that give.

Before my conversion I knew a far amount of people, who latter on after my conversion I discovered they were Catholic and good standing ones as well.

I’m not saying start wearing t-shirts everyday or a rosary around your neck, but somewhere they need to know who you are. Remember the parable about a candle covered bears no light.

Peace be to you.