Where did YOU get your authority?

[willingheart]

p.s. please take some time on your own when you can and really contemplate on the issues I brought up regarding the problems with personal bible interpretation from the Holy Spirit, especially when the subject of interpretation is salvific doctrine (what is needed to be saved).

Against my better judgement, I have to engage Steve. Can you explain what you mean by “what is needed to be saved?” Because I think it may point to a critical difference between Catholics and Protestants.

My faith says that belief in Jesus Christ’s death on the cross and resurrection as an atoning sacrifice for my sins is what is needed to be saved. (“That if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.” Romans 10:9-10) I’d point to the thief on the cross who could do nothing more than believe and state his faith. He had no opportunity for baptism, confession, or penance of any kind, yet he was told by Jesus that he would be with him “this day” in Paradise. If there is more required, does that not diminish the work of Jesus on the cross? Doesn’t it say that His sacrifice was not enough? And I hope you aren’t suggesting salvation by works when you say “what is needed?”

 

[SteveGC]

AJ,

You keep explaining the Holy Spirit in ways that I am not refuting.
You are well versed in the scriptural message of the Holy Spirit.

But there are 2 things about the Holy Spirit that you do not acknowledge, yet are true.

1. He is NOT your personal Bible interpreter. You did not learn salvific doctrine, or matters of faith and morals from reading the bible with the Holy Spirit within you. This is NOT how it works. You learned what you have learned FIRST and ORIGINALLY from man. Then you validated what you’ve learned through reading the Bible. All of us did this. If we say we didn’t, we’re saying that everything we know about Christianity today came to us exclusively from our reading the Bible with the Holy Spirit. This is nonsense. And you know it isn’t true. Catholics are okay admitting this, because the men we learned Christianity from are not normal men…they were specifically appointed (and anointed) by Christ Himself to teach with authority and truth. Non-Catholics have problems admitting this, because they have no such authority, no such men in their lineage that they can point to. Because they can’t, and because they are misinformed about The Catholic Church, they can only lean on the Bible for their source of all truth, even though they must admit that the Bible only “confirmed” the *partial *truths they learned from unappointed men.
2. The Holy Spirit comes to all men, but He does this through the Church, and through your baptism. I know it’s hard for you to accept, probably because you still see the Catholic Church as man-made. It is not. She is Christ-made, and the Holy Spirit was sent to all man through Her. That is why Christ did not breathe onto all believers and say “receive the Holy Spirit”… Onto whom did He breathe? The Apostles…that’s right. And who are the Apostles? The appointed leaders of Christ’s Church, with Peter as Her primary shepherd.

God Bless

 

[SteveGC]

Against my better judgement, I have to engage Steve. Can you explain what you mean by “what is needed to be saved?” Because I think it may point to a critical difference between Catholics and Protestants.

My faith says that belief in Jesus Christ’s death on the cross and resurrection as an atoning sacrifice for my sins is what is needed to be saved. (“That if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.” Romans 10:9-10) I’d point to the thief on the cross who could do nothing more than believe and state his faith. He had no opportunity for baptism, confession, or penance of any kind, yet he was told by Jesus that he would be with him “this day” in Paradise. If there is more required, does that not diminish the work of Jesus on the cross? Doesn’t it say that His sacrifice was not enough? And I hope you aren’t suggesting salvation by works when you say “what is needed?”

Willingheart, thanks for the questions.

The thief on the cross is a common argument against the Catholic teaching of salvation. A few things to remember. First, it is not known that this thief was NOT baptized. Secondly, the thief’s conversion was before the atoning death of our Lord, so he would have fallen under OT economies of salvation. But most importantly, this is a message of the power and mercy of God, and that there IS such a thing as “through desire” of uniting with Christ. We speak of baptism of desire (when you would do all that is necessary, but your physical circumstances prevent it).

Now, you said **“my faith says…” **Let’s stop there. What do you mean “your faith says”? You mean, your personal interpretation of scripture? Your church’s? From whom did you learn what you now profess? This is important, as it points to the fact that you didn’t come to believe in what you believe from scripture alone…(see my previous posts on why). All of us learned from man, then we validate and expand upon it from Scripture…and if we learn incorrectly, the Bible is not going to readily refute it, because anyone can pull out a verse or a dozen verses, take them out of context, and make you believe anything. So, we have to come to terms with the fact that a Christ-appointed authority must exist, so that all men may be led unto truth…because the Bible was never meant as a stand-alone source of truth. Again, this is not meant to undermine The Holy Spirit. It just shows that The Holy Spirit is alive and well, and provides guidance and protection to whom He was entrusted, The Church. This is quite biblical.

To get to your last question…what is needed?

All that Christ’s Church teaches is required. Plain and simple.

And don’t be put off by the notion of “works”

You’ve heard of the term and idea of “fruit of the spirit”, yes? Works is the same thing. Our capacity for righteous acts come through Christ, and we cooperate and participate with that Grace throughout our lives (this expression of love for God is an act of the will), in order that we unify ourselves as completely as possible with Christ. Sound familiar?

The only difference is that, for Catholics, this is pivotal for our salvation. We must live in obedience to God’s will (which manifests itself through Christ’s Church (namely Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and The Magisterium). Hard to reason it all out if you’ve been overexposed to anti-Catholic rhetoric, but that doesn’t alter the truth.

God Bless

 

[look3467]

:clapping: :clapping:

now. according to you the Sacred Scriptures contradicts itself.

for example, what was said 2000, 1000, 500 years ago by our Lord no longer counts. according to you it is I now who decide what Jesus meant when He said what He said.

if the Church was relevant then, today she no longer is. it is i who decide for the HS tells me today it is a different story.

correct me if i am wrong.

Obey our Lord and Obey His Church always.

The church, the churches, meaning including all who proclaim the Gospel of Christ one way or another is and are still relevant today.

The difference is that it is no longer required for one to go to, participate in a particular place or belief because Jesus inhabits he hearts of mankind when mankind’s hearts become willing.

Choosing to worship God in any organization is secondary for that is what working out, not in… our salvation.

The problem arises when some organizations claim sole rights to the throne to exclude all others unless all others join the ranks.

Hence, this discussion board is about who is right and who is not right?

My contention is that we are all right simply because we are all wanting to grow spiritually by seeking and searching.

That is what reaching for the fruit(knowledge)of the tree of life is all about.

What is truth today is within us to seek out. The church, the churches by whatever name they might go by are beacons of light on a hill drawing souls to seek and to find God within themselves.

Good is dormant as evil is within us and both depending on which one we give way to is our god.

Evil is easy since we are subjected to a sensual environment conducive to the lusts of the flesh, but hidden within us and dormant is the good that has to be drawn out by knowledge of the other tree in the Garden, the tree of life.

I don’t discredit the Catholic church or any other churches right to proclaim the Gospel, I just encourage a personal relationship and communion with God via His Spirit which is in us.

My understanding now is that God has given us the right to worship Him in heart in which translates into physical action
by bringing this body into subjection to His will.

This maybe done while in the Catholic church, Mormon church or any protestant denomination.

The key is the heart and the love springing out of the fountain of life.

If the heart can not be transformed, than what use is any religious belief?

The heart of the matter is truth, and only that hidden truth can be revealed only by God alone as He touches our hearts when He calls us.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[SteveGC]

If there is more required, does that not diminish the work of Jesus on the cross? Doesn’t it say that His sacrifice was not enough?

I didn’t address this specific question, but I wanted to.

Our free-will cooperation with the Grace of God in NO WAY diminishes the one-time sufficient atoning death of our Lord. It amplifies it in our lives, it celebrates it fully. Catholics aren’t taught, nor do the faithful believe, that we have to make up for the insufficiencies of Christ’s death by working. That’s heretical. We believe that Christ’s passion is what now saves us. We were lost forever, except that God sent His Son to die. It’s ALL about the Grace of God. That’s the method by which he saves us (through His Son). We believe and profess it just as much (if not more) than non-Catholics believe and profess it.

And while Christ’s atonement is the method by which we are saved, the determination of *whether or not *we are indeed saved is a different matter. And while baptism is required, along with obedience to the salvific doctrine of the Church, our salvation is not possible if authentic belief and faith in Christ is not truly in our hearts. But belief and faith is more than merely professing with our mouths, and feeling it in our hearts…we must cooperate with the free gift of salvation by obeying Christ and repenting of our sin throughout our lives.

Again, non-Catholics call their cooperation “fruit”, whereas the Church tends to call it “works”. It’s all about life-long obedience, repentence, and conversion to Christ.

God Bless

 

[look3467]

1. He is NOT your personal Bible interpreter>>>Steve

The written word can not be opened to understanding without the Holy Spirits indwelling in us.

Information in the form of knowledge is readily available via the written word, churches, TV, Radio, and all news media sources even from the White House is Jesus proclaimed.

But does that mean every ear and heart is converted? No! Why not?

The reason is because if the light of the Spirit of God shines not in the darkness of our hearts, though knowledge be there, no action will take place to convert the heart to God.

Therefore in answer to your number one above, Yes, the Spirit of God brings to our remembrance, or in other words opens up our understanding of what we have heard or read.

1. The Holy Spirit comes to all men, but He does this through the Church,>>>Steve

I will not deny you that belief since I see Gods spirit indwelling in you already by your own admission, and in which I am delighted to see.

Our spiritual growth is dependent on our desire to learn more about our God as we adore His love and tenderness.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[SteveGC]

… the churches by whatever name they might go by are beacons of light on a hill drawing souls to seek and to find God within themselves.

This maybe done while in the Catholic church, Mormon church or any protestant denomination.

Oh, AJ

This is a precarious position to take. They may all be beacons, but not all are beacons of True Light.

I don’t wish to downplay the notion of “seeking”. This indeed is a beautiful thing, to which God responds. I agree with that. But Christ calls us all to be ONE, as He and The Father are ONE. This means unity. It infers a common foundation of revealed Truth to all the faithful.

This cannot be accomplished through many different paths, whether you’re talking about a church, or just you and your Bible alone. There has to be a single source, AJ. And of course that source is Christ Himself, but we have to know how God intended for the teachings of Christ to be revealed to us. And it’s not the Bible, despite its incredible usefulness and guidance. No, the source is a church, but not ANY church. Christ’s Church. This is why 1 Timothy 3:15 states that The Church is the pillar and bulwark of The Truth.

And it doesn’t diminish the personal relationship with Christ that you admonish us to have. We know this. This is what IT’S ALL ABOUT, having that intimacy with our Lord. AJ, in no other way can you come as close as humanly (nor spiritually) possible to our Lord, than you can through the Church He established on earth.

I so long for you to be accepting of this, because your zeal for the Lord is obvious, and for you to understand and accept The Eucharist, which is the source and summit of our communion with God this side of heaven, this would be such a blessing in your life.

God Bless.

 

[NonCatholic]

Show me - in Scripture - where it says that anybody has the right ro condemn anybody’s soul. Binding and loosing are not the same as condemning. Besides, Jesus gave this gift directly to his apostles - not to all of his believers. (Matt 16-19, Matt 18:18, John 20:22-23)

The Church, in the 2000 years since she was established by our Lord Jesus has never made the claim that anybody is in hell.
Who gave you that right?

You need to review the statement. I cannot condemn anyone as stated earlier, the Lord Jesus alone has that authority.

THE AUTHORITY OF ALL BELIEVERS

“I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” - Matthew 16:19

Here Christ was giving the disciples authority to approve (to bind) or disapprove (to loose) the actions of others. Christ spoke of that same authority in John 20:23: "Whosoever’s sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whosoever’s sins ye retain, they are retained. " In Matthew 18:18 Christ gave the entire church that authority by saying, "Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. " So the kind of authority Christ spoke about in Matthew 16 was given not only to Peter and the other apostles, but also to every believer.

Based on God’s Word

All believers have that authority because God’s Word reveals to us the kind of behavior God approves or disapproves of. So if you ask a man if he has received Christ as his Lord and Savior and he says yes, you can say, "Your sins are forgiven. " But if says no you can say, "Your sins aren’t forgiven. " Similarly, we can say to others, “It’s wrong to do that!” If what we say is based on God’s Word–not on a person’s title, office, human worthiness, or intelligence–we know it will concur with what’s said in heaven. Because God’s Word is our authority, it’s important that we not compromise the truth it teaches.

Exercised in the Church

God has entrusted the Word to His church so it might shine as a light in the world (Matt. 5:14). When the church upholds the Word, the Lord’s will is done on earth as it is in heaven (Matt. 6:9). That way the church serves as a divine pattern for the lost world to see. It has a responsibility to tell the lost about sin, righteousness, and judgment. By telling them what God’s Word says, they will hear what heaven says.

Because God has given His Word to the church, the church is His authority in the world. With such divine authority, there’s no need to worry about the world’s reaction to the gospel message. Even though many will reject Christ, the church must never compromise the truth. Upholding the standard of His Word will bring Him the glory He deserves.

I hope this clarifies.

 

[NonCatholic]

But your words were

That is not the same as saying “You have a low view of Scripture”.

The first is an implied judgement on ones eternal soul. The second is a judgement on ones view of Scripture.

I would not be having this discussion if your response had been the second.

It is what it is…a prayer for a hardened heart, which by definition when one that has a low view of Scripture, which is a rejection of Scripture, which is a rejection of the word of God, which is a rejection of Jesus of the Bible.

Here is a quote that got it started Quote:** “Why should we be satisfied with the bare bones minimum the Bible provides”**

Judging is so funny, because all who responded have committed the very offense against me that you accuse me of…hypocrites. You might want to follow the entire trail and gather some facts before passing judgment. Why hasn’t anyone took issue with the offense to Scripture? Please don’t answer that, please!

 

[SteveGC]

The written word can not be opened to understanding without the Holy Spirits indwelling in us.

Need for the indwelling Holy Spirit…yes
We become opened to understanding…yes
Open to Interpretation of our own accord…NO

The Holy Spirit makes knowledge of the Truth possible. Agreed.

Through reading the Bible with His guidance, you can understand that which you have heard in Truth (if in fact it is Truth)

Through reading the Bible with His guidance, you also CAN interpret truths as revealed in Scripture…but you **can not **do this without an understanding of the fact that the Bible alone does not reveal all Truth to us.

If it did, AJ, you would believe that baptism is required for salvation, because I believe that. And I don’t believe that just because I’m Catholic. I believed that when I had no church, but I had abundant faith, and I prayed to the Holy Spirit to guide me into all truth. And when I read the Gospels, I came to understand that I must be baptized. I assume that you don’t believe baptism is part of your salvation. If I’m right, how do you reconcile that I do, when I used the Holy Spirit to interpret that for me too?

All I’m saying is that, yes, I actually do agree that the Holy Spirit can reveal truth to us through our personal reading of the Bible…but three things must be true…

1. we must be attentive to the content and unity of the whole of Scripture
2. we must be attentive to the coherence of the truths of faith among themselves and within the whole plan of Revelation
3. we must read Scripture within the living Tradition of the whole Church, because it is to the Church that the Holy Spirit first entrusted the truthful interpretation of Scripture

You would probably not object to the first two. But certainly the third. I’m sure we will have to agree to disagree, AJ. That is unfortunate, but probably a fact.

I am likewise, encouraged by your zeal in your faith, brother.

God Bless.

 

[willingheart]

And don’t be put off by the notion of “works”

You’ve heard of the term and idea of “fruit of the spirit”, yes? Works is the same thing. Our capacity for righteous acts come through Christ, and we cooperate and participate with that Grace throughout our lives (this expression of love for God is an act of the will), in order that we unify ourselves as completely as possible with Christ. Sound familiar?

Yes, the fruits of the Spirit are the evidence of our faith and personal relationship with God. They attest to our belief, to who we are and to Whom we belong. Likewise, I agree that God has works for us to do in our service to Him. But the works themselves are not the source of our salvation, merely the expression of it : “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works so that no one can boast.” (Eph. 2:8-9)

I think we agree here. My concern is that there are many people, Catholic and non-Catholic, who still feel that if they are “good people” they will be saved. The Bible tells us that our good deeds are as filthy rags before God’s righteousness, and therefore incapable of saving us. So my faith is in the blood of Christ shed on the cross.

 

[With_Questions]

It is what it is…a prayer for a hardened heart, which by definition when one that has a low view of Scripture, which is a rejection of Scripture, which is a rejection of the word of God, which is a rejection of Jesus of the Bible.

Here is a quote that got it started Quote:** “Why should we be satisfied with the bare bones minimum the Bible provides”**

Judging is so funny, because all who responded have committed the very offense against me that you accuse me of…hypocrites. You might want to follow the entire trail and gather some facts before passing judgment. Why hasn’t anyone took issue with the offense to Scripture? Please don’t answer that, please!

Umm…you also said “lest you die in your sins”.

That is a judgement against the eternal soul.

Again, repeating myself, none who have responded to you have either pretended to judge the thoughts and intention of your heart, nor have pretended to judge your eternal destiny.

They are only objectively judging the objective act of you a human condemning someone whom you don’t even know based on statements that can easily be misunderstood.

I could have a separate conversation with Catholics if I want to on their view of Scripture. And I would repeat all of the same points I have argued in the past. Around and around in the same circles. I will pass on that, thank you very much.

What I will not do however is condemn people who disagree with me to eternal flames.

The last time I checked the Bible, the one requirement for eternal life is “Believe on Jesus” (John 3;16 and several other simple gospel verses throughout the NT that I learned 2 months into being a Christian).

I suspect that if I asked the original poster whether she believed on Jesus per John 3:16 she would say yes. Now granted if she says no, then we have a problem, but I suspect anyway she would say yes.

Now assuming that is the case, who am I to say that the promises in God’s word of eternal life do not apply to her because we disagree on a point of theology.

 

[SteveGC]

Yes, the fruits of the Spirit are the evidence of our faith and personal relationship with God. They attest to our belief, to who we are and to Whom we belong. Likewise, I agree that God has works for us to do in our service to Him. ** But the works themselves are not the source of our salvation, merely the expression of it **: “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works so that no one can boast.” (Eph. 2:8-9)

I bolded a statement of yours. And I’m glad you said it. Because that’s the key thing people don’t realize about faithful Catholics (those who understand and follow the teachings of The Church). We don’t think works are the source. God is the source. Grace is the source. Christ’s atoning death is the source. Works are the obedience, the cooperation, the participation, and sure, the evidence, as you say. We just believe that we must obey, cooperate, partipate, and show evidence…not by our own efforts, but by the Grace of God Who makes all our efforts possible once we give our “yes” to Him (our will to His will). And this is a life-long conversion of our hearts and our wills.

God Bless

p.s. For those of you arguing with NonCatholic over his statement to LilyM, allow me to perhaps help things settle a bit. You have to understand that NonCatholic truly believes that all references to authority granted to the Church, as revealed in the Bible, are referencing himself, and all professed believers. He doesn’t associate this authority as being granted to the visible Church on earth. Therefore, he believes that he has the right to do as much as is given to Christ’s Church. He would certainly argue the point that the Church is merely an invisible body of believers, and some of you arguing with him may believe that to, but realize that he also entitles himself to all the vested authority as well. In that light, I do not blame him for making bold statments like that, although I think they were unnecessary, and he completely misunderstands LilyM’s view of Scripture. I would wager LilyM holds Scripture in very high regard, and as a Catholic, she would hold it up with Sacred Tradition and The Magesterium as well. (sorry if you don’t want me speaking for you, lily)

 

[willingheart]

I bolded a statement of yours. And I’m glad you said it. Because that’s the key thing people don’t realize about faithful Catholics (those who understand and follow the teachings of The Church). We don’t think works are the source. God is the source. Grace is the source. Christ’s atoning death is the source. Works are the obedience, the cooperation, the participation, and sure, the evidence, as you say. We just believe that we must obey, cooperate, partipate, and show evidence…not by our own efforts, but by the Grace of God Who makes all our efforts possible once we give our “yes” to Him (our will to His will). And this is a life-long conversion of our hearts and our wills.

All agreed, Steve, and Amen! But if we accept the same view of salvation through the Gospel of Christ, is it somehow less true if it comes to us from outside the RCC? John 3:16 says “whosoever believes”. Does that not include me, a non-Catholic? Is God’s grace not also sufficient for me?

 

[wisdomseeker]

The church, the churches, meaning including all who proclaim the Gospel of Christ one way or another is and are still relevant today.

The difference is that it is no longer required for one to go to, participate in a particular place or belief because Jesus inhabits he hearts of mankind when mankind’s hearts become willing.

Choosing to worship God in any organization is secondary for that is what working out, not in… our salvation.

The problem arises when some organizations claim sole rights to the throne to exclude all others unless all others join the ranks.

Hence, this discussion board is about who is right and who is not right?

My contention is that we are all right simply because we are all wanting to grow spiritually by seeking and searching.

That is what reaching for the fruit(knowledge)of the tree of life is all about.

What is truth today is within us to seek out. The church, the churches by whatever name they might go by are beacons of light on a hill drawing souls to seek and to find God within themselves.

Good is dormant as evil is within us and both depending on which one we give way to is our god.

Evil is easy since we are subjected to a sensual environment conducive to the lusts of the flesh, but hidden within us and dormant is the good that has to be drawn out by knowledge of the other tree in the Garden, the tree of life.

I don’t discredit the Catholic church or any other churches right to proclaim the Gospel, I just encourage a personal relationship and communion with God via His Spirit which is in us.

My understanding now is that God has given us the right to worship Him in heart in which translates into physical action
by bringing this body into subjection to His will.

This maybe done while in the Catholic church, Mormon church or any protestant denomination.

The key is the heart and the love springing out of the fountain of life.

If the heart can not be transformed, than what use is any religious belief?

The heart of the matter is truth, and only that hidden truth can be revealed only by God alone as He touches our hearts when He calls us.

Peace>>>AJ

So you agree with what i just said? right?

:bowdown: :byzsoc:

 

[elvisman]

You need to review the statement. I cannot condemn anyone as stated earlier, the Lord Jesus alone has that authority.

THE AUTHORITY OF ALL BELIEVERS
“I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” - Matthew 16:19
Here Christ was giving the disciples authority to approve (to bind) or disapprove (to loose) the actions of others. Christ spoke of that same authority in John 20:23: "Whosoever’s sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whosoever’s sins ye retain, they are retained. " In Matthew 18:18 Christ gave the entire church that authority by saying, "Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. " So the kind of authority Christ spoke about in Matthew 16 was given not only to Peter and the other apostles, but also to every believer.
Exercised in the Church
God has entrusted the Word to His church so it might shine as a light in the world (Matt. 5:14). When the church upholds the Word, the Lord’s will is done on earth as it is in heaven (Matt. 6:9). That way the church serves as a divine pattern for the lost world to see. It has a responsibility to tell the lost about sin, righteousness, and judgment. By telling them what God’s Word says, they will hear what heaven says.
Because God has given His Word to the church, the church is His authority in the world. With such divine authority, there’s no need to worry about the world’s reaction to the gospel message. Even though many will reject Christ, the church must never compromise the truth. Upholding the standard of His Word will bring Him the glory He deserves.

I hope this clarifies.

It doesn’t clarify. Unfortunately, as in all Protestantism – all it does is muddle the issue.
As for my comments on condemnation, I was confused by your seemingly contradictory claim that:
“By the way, we can pronounce judgment on someone that we give the gospel to and if they reject it…”
I guess with further review, I may have come to a different conclusion.
**Anyway – as for your other comments that you pasted from the www.gracebiblefellowship-tx.org/Sermons website, Matt. 16:19 was directed at Peter only when Jesus told him that his Church would be built on him. **

Later, in Matt. 18:18, I notice that you didn’t include the passage in context. He was speaking to the authority of the Church as an entity – not each individual within the Church (“if he refuses to listen even to the Church”).
Jesus’ Church has a hierarchy - a structure - a leadership. To deny that is to deny passages such as 2 Thess. 3:6, 1 Cor. 11:2, and 2 Thess. 2:15

The church has the authority – not the individuals that make it up. This is not what was taught in Scripture – this is not what was taught by the Apostles – this is not what was taught by the Early Church Fathers.

This is a fallacy that began to be taught over 1500 years after Jesus’ Ascension into heaven. They began to teach that faith was all that was necessary instead of obedience of faith. In doing this, you overlook (1 Corinthians 13:1-2, 13).
In these verses, St. Paul is expounding on the 3 major virtues, faith, hope and love. Which does he say is the greatest? Faith? Nope – he says LOVE is Why? Because love is the all-encompassing virtue that IS the obedience of faith. Without it – you cannot have true faith.

ALL Scripture must be taken in context. Without it, all you get is the tragedy that is the thousand’s of bickering denominations that is Protestantism.

 

[look3467]

So you agree with what i just said? right?

:bowdown: :byzsoc:

For the most part of it Yes!

Peace>>>AJ

 

[With_Questions]

p.s. For those of you arguing with NonCatholic over his statement to LilyM, allow me to perhaps help things settle a bit. You have to understand that NonCatholic truly believes that all references to authority granted to the Church, as revealed in the Bible, are referencing himself, and all professed believers.

Even if he is right on this point (I am choosing not to debate this issue for now), it does not necessarily follow that he is right in applying the authority that he believes he has in this specific case.

It is logically different to
(1) Say to a Muslim who admittedly does not profess Christ “He who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God”.

(2) Claim that somebody who professes Christ as “will die in your sins”.

In case 1, I am just reading the written Word of God and if the shoe fits, then wear it. The Bible speaks for itself.

In case 2, I am claiming that I know the heart and mind of the one who professes Christ. That type of judgement is reserved only to the Lord God.

 

[look3467]

Oh, AJ

This is a precarious position to take. They may all be beacons, but not all are beacons of True Light. >>>Steve

Not the least bit, Steve, for God is not limited only by mankind.
Who are we to decide who, when, where and why God chooses to reach us?

You have the answer right there in front of you in this next quote of yours:

I don’t wish to downplay the notion of “seeking”. This indeed is a beautiful thing, to which God responds. I agree with that. But Christ calls us all to be ONE, as He and The Father are ONE. This means unity. It infers a common foundation of revealed Truth to all the faithful.>>>Steve

That common foundation is love, Gods love and not that of our own choosing.

This cannot be accomplished through many different paths, whether you’re talking about a church, or just you and your Bible alone. There has to be a single source, AJ. And of course that source is Christ Himself, but we have to know how God intended for the teachings of Christ to be revealed to us. And it’s not the Bible, despite its incredible usefulness and guidance. No, the source is a church, but not ANY church. Christ’s Church. This is why 1 Timothy 3:15 states that The Church is the pillar and bulwark of The Truth.>>>Steve

The church is you! You are the believer that is the beacon of light, a candle on a hill, to a world of darkness.

The bible is your lamp unto your feet: Psa 119:105 NUN. Thy word [is] a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

So, the word of God, a lamp unto your feet shines in the darkness, keeps you from stumbling as you reflect that same light unto a world to see from where the goodness of God is.

“Truth which lives from the beginning is sown everywhere;
many see the sowing, but few know the reaping”…the gospel of Philip by Alan Jacobs

Can we see to know how to reap from what God has sown and not limit it to our own making?

That is the question that we must overcome as our differences divide us.

And it doesn’t diminish the personal relationship with Christ that you admonish us to have. We know this. This is what IT’S ALL ABOUT, having that intimacy with our Lord. AJ, in no other way can you come as close as humanly (nor spiritually) possible to our Lord, than you can through the Church He established on earth.>>>Steve

Intimacy with the Lord is not limited to the walls of a church building, but elsewhere, where the heart is, other than that, it is to your advantage to worship Him as you deem necessary.

I

so long for you to be accepting of this, because your zeal for the Lord is obvious, and for you to understand and accept The Eucharist, which is the source and summit of our communion with God this side of heaven, this would be such a blessing in your life.>>>Steve

Thank you kindly for your concern, my communion with Christ is my walk.
If I can not walk with Him I am not in communion with Him.

Amo 3:3 Can two walk together, except they be agreed?

Peace>>>AJ

 

[MelanieAnne]

Just a thought to inject while so many are speaking of a book ~ the Bible ~ and not to take away from that but to ADD

The WORD of God is also a Person ~ His name is Jesus Christ

Very often in Scripture the WORD is referred to in some way. I wanted to affirm that everyone that makes the same reference also affirms that the WORD of God is Jesus.