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SteveGC
Guest
You’re right. We are not to decide. And we didn’t decide. It was God who chose how to reach us. I would suggest, AJ, in all charity, that you often fall into the anti-Catholic trap. Not that you are anti-Catholic - I can discern that you are not. But the trap insists to all its victims that the Catholic Church is man-made.
It is not.
It is Christ-made. And until people can come to terms with that, no other issue is arguable. Because if you see “church” only as an invisible body of believers, and refuse to look at biblical (OT and NT) proof, and historical proof that it was always intended by Christ to be visible, and have visible leadership, and be sacramental, and liturgical, and be the earthly shepherd of His flock, then we will always end up at a stand-still.
Another reason I see you are trapped in the realm of anti-Catholic rhetoric, AJ, is because you insist on showing Catholics that it’s all about a personal relationship with Christ. That’s like telling someone “staying alive is all about breathing”. It’s an unnecessary assertion. It is so automatic in us, that it’s often humorous for us to hear someone implore us to get to know Christ. And when I refer to Catholics, AJ, I do mean the faithful, knowledgable Catholics - not lukewarm cafeteria Catholics who do not know their faith (there are plenty of those, as there are likewise outside the Church).
God Bless
L
look3467
Guest
As always, Steve your very kind.
The problem that I see in both Catholics and Protestants is the determination of making their institutional beliefs the only vehicles by which God can work.
I will give you an example of what I mean.
Most protestant beliefs adamantly require that a person make a public confession of faith in Jesus Christ or else be forever condemned to hell.
Looking at Catholics from that perspective is saying that all Catholics are not going to make it because they do not as protestants do, is make a public profession of faith in Jesus Chris alone, not in Mary and not in the Pope.
The same is looked upon Mormons, JW’s, Seventh day Adventist, Muslims and Jews.
The Catholic perspective is that unless we belong to the rightful church all others are lost.
You see where I am coming from?
My problem was, once as a Catholic, I felt close to God, an as a protestant, I still feel close o God.
My question to me was “why is there no difference” in my feelings towards God as a Catholic or a Protestant?
The answer was in long time coming as I am now 62 years old with allot of life’s observations, experience and study in the word.
I was not content with either the Catholic logic or Protestant logic and had to look else where to find my answers.
If I looked at the Catholic logic, the Church was the means of salvation.
If I looked at the Protestant logic, public profession of faith in Jesus was the only way.
My dilemma was in justifying the rest of the world who did not fit either of the two category presented.
There were no answers forth coming from either side other than either their way or the highway.
So I searched and searched and looked into many of the occult beliefs looking for a common thread that would satisfy my yearnings as I was vexed in spirit, unsettled until I did find the answers.
It all came down to me and in which was in front of me all the time but could not see it for the clouds of doctrines of man.
It was love period.
There is human kind of love and than there’s Godly kind of love and unless we are given knowledge of the Godly kind, it won’t matter what religious beliefs we would espouse, it would all be in vain.
Christ paid the price for all human souls whether they acknowledge Him or not.
If we do, we are blessed, if we don’t we remain in the former state (condemned)until either we do or we die, and after that, our soul belongs to Him who purchased it.
In that, I see the common thread that can unite all our differences and make of many one, of one spirit, and that one only is in brotherhood of Jesus.
Mar 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
And the will of God is not this church or that church but:Jhn 13:35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Love requires nothing but gives everything.
"Love never controls; it doesn’t claim this is “yours” and this is “mine” but says, “all is yours”…the Gospel of Philip by Alan Jacobs.
Friends, if Godly love can not unite us with the one God, than nothing else will.
Pace>>>AJ
The problem that I see in both Catholics and Protestants is the determination of making their institutional beliefs the only vehicles by which God can work.
I will give you an example of what I mean.
Most protestant beliefs adamantly require that a person make a public confession of faith in Jesus Christ or else be forever condemned to hell.
Looking at Catholics from that perspective is saying that all Catholics are not going to make it because they do not as protestants do, is make a public profession of faith in Jesus Chris alone, not in Mary and not in the Pope.
The same is looked upon Mormons, JW’s, Seventh day Adventist, Muslims and Jews.
The Catholic perspective is that unless we belong to the rightful church all others are lost.
You see where I am coming from?
My problem was, once as a Catholic, I felt close to God, an as a protestant, I still feel close o God.
My question to me was “why is there no difference” in my feelings towards God as a Catholic or a Protestant?
The answer was in long time coming as I am now 62 years old with allot of life’s observations, experience and study in the word.
I was not content with either the Catholic logic or Protestant logic and had to look else where to find my answers.
If I looked at the Catholic logic, the Church was the means of salvation.
If I looked at the Protestant logic, public profession of faith in Jesus was the only way.
My dilemma was in justifying the rest of the world who did not fit either of the two category presented.
There were no answers forth coming from either side other than either their way or the highway.
So I searched and searched and looked into many of the occult beliefs looking for a common thread that would satisfy my yearnings as I was vexed in spirit, unsettled until I did find the answers.
It all came down to me and in which was in front of me all the time but could not see it for the clouds of doctrines of man.
It was love period.
There is human kind of love and than there’s Godly kind of love and unless we are given knowledge of the Godly kind, it won’t matter what religious beliefs we would espouse, it would all be in vain.
Christ paid the price for all human souls whether they acknowledge Him or not.
If we do, we are blessed, if we don’t we remain in the former state (condemned)until either we do or we die, and after that, our soul belongs to Him who purchased it.
In that, I see the common thread that can unite all our differences and make of many one, of one spirit, and that one only is in brotherhood of Jesus.
Mar 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
And the will of God is not this church or that church but:Jhn 13:35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Love requires nothing but gives everything.
"Love never controls; it doesn’t claim this is “yours” and this is “mine” but says, “all is yours”…the Gospel of Philip by Alan Jacobs.
Friends, if Godly love can not unite us with the one God, than nothing else will.
Pace>>>AJ
C
Chancellare
Guest
Excellently said.
Christ’s prayer “that they may be one” still rings in everyone’s ear.
Let us also pray that those who split from the Catholic Church on account of abuses and human faults during their times may also find the realization that love conquers all, including abuses, faults, schisms and hardened hearts.
W
wisdomseeker
Guest
I hope you realize what you are saying.
because what you are really saying is this: it is not God’s way it is my way. the secular and modernist mindset.
it does not make any sense for you to be using Sacred Scripture. it was written long ago.
**
Pray for the Church throughout the world. Pray for our Catholics priests and lay people who are being persecuted in many places.**
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NonCatholic
Guest
As you mature as a Christian, you will know exactly what I am saying…I’m sorry this is a stumbling block for you…please forgive.
I pray you understand all that it entails “to believe in Jesus”; you do not want to be a victim of easy believism. What happens to a person who doesn’t posses Christ? They die in their sins…right?
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SteveGC
Guest
AJ,
Your posts are a joy to read, filled with a certain wisdom that comes with obvious experience. I would want to respond to you in this way…
Although The Catholic Church properly claims to possess the fullness of The Truth, which is the essence of Jesus Christ Himself, it does this not of its own accord, but in concert with the proclamations of Christ Himself. The Church also does not claim to be the only vehicle by which God works. Indeed, She states that the Holy Spirit, although linked to The Church from the beginning, absolutely and impartially works outside of Her in the lives of all the faithful. But His purpose is to draw all peoples into the bosom of Christ’s Church, which is to say, to draw all peoples unto The Truth.
Catholics, by the way, do not make a profession of faith to Mary, nor the Pope. Our profession of faith is to Christ, and it IS in fact, public, as we profess the Nicene Creed atleast weekly at Sunday Mass. I know you remember this from your past. But we, of course, don’t do this because of protestant conformities, which are a mere 500 years old. The Creed is nearly as old as The Church Herself.
I’m glad you feel as close to God as you ever did, regardless of your church, AJ. You speculated as to why there was no difference, and although I don’t know you, nor your heart, might I be so bold as to offer a possibility…and that is that perhaps your past Catholic faith was experienced under poor catechesis? Which is no insult to you by any stretch. Tragically, many leave the Church for just that reason - the failures of men/women to properly pass on the true teachings of The Church. Without proper catechesis, many fall away, because to the uncatechized eye, The Church can indeed look like what many misinformed anti-Catholics describe it to be. This is just speculation on my part, AJ. I offer it due to the obvious stance you have that The Church is man-made, among other subtleties in your posts which suggest you perhaps do not have proper understanding of what exactly The Church teaches.
But you’re absolutely right, we are all called to a Godly love in our lives, and this does indeed guide us. Catholics would say to you, AJ, that they would pray that someday it leads you back home to Mother Church, who longs for the return of all those who are seeking or who are lost.
God Bless
Your posts are a joy to read, filled with a certain wisdom that comes with obvious experience. I would want to respond to you in this way…
Although The Catholic Church properly claims to possess the fullness of The Truth, which is the essence of Jesus Christ Himself, it does this not of its own accord, but in concert with the proclamations of Christ Himself. The Church also does not claim to be the only vehicle by which God works. Indeed, She states that the Holy Spirit, although linked to The Church from the beginning, absolutely and impartially works outside of Her in the lives of all the faithful. But His purpose is to draw all peoples into the bosom of Christ’s Church, which is to say, to draw all peoples unto The Truth.
Catholics, by the way, do not make a profession of faith to Mary, nor the Pope. Our profession of faith is to Christ, and it IS in fact, public, as we profess the Nicene Creed atleast weekly at Sunday Mass. I know you remember this from your past. But we, of course, don’t do this because of protestant conformities, which are a mere 500 years old. The Creed is nearly as old as The Church Herself.
I’m glad you feel as close to God as you ever did, regardless of your church, AJ. You speculated as to why there was no difference, and although I don’t know you, nor your heart, might I be so bold as to offer a possibility…and that is that perhaps your past Catholic faith was experienced under poor catechesis? Which is no insult to you by any stretch. Tragically, many leave the Church for just that reason - the failures of men/women to properly pass on the true teachings of The Church. Without proper catechesis, many fall away, because to the uncatechized eye, The Church can indeed look like what many misinformed anti-Catholics describe it to be. This is just speculation on my part, AJ. I offer it due to the obvious stance you have that The Church is man-made, among other subtleties in your posts which suggest you perhaps do not have proper understanding of what exactly The Church teaches.
But you’re absolutely right, we are all called to a Godly love in our lives, and this does indeed guide us. Catholics would say to you, AJ, that they would pray that someday it leads you back home to Mother Church, who longs for the return of all those who are seeking or who are lost.
God Bless
M
MelanieAnne
Guest
The turn this conversation has taken has reminded me of something I once heard distinguishing Catholics from other Christians. While I mean no disrespect, as all Christians have some portion of the truth, I cannot help but to regret what some are missing.
So many claim to talk about Jesus or to read about Him. We COMMUNE with Him ~ Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity ~ every Sunday, or even more frequently if we are lucky.
Everyone that reads about Jesus, or talks about Him, is welcome to do so, that’s GREAT! But you’re missing out on the fullness of the WORD of God when you skip the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Because in the end, Jesus didn’t come to write a book. He, Himself, is the WORD of God and it is He who, in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, assimilates us, His Church, into Him. (It’s not the other way around!) Those that stay away from the Mass Jesus commanded do not experience this fullness.
So many claim to talk about Jesus or to read about Him. We COMMUNE with Him ~ Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity ~ every Sunday, or even more frequently if we are lucky.
Everyone that reads about Jesus, or talks about Him, is welcome to do so, that’s GREAT! But you’re missing out on the fullness of the WORD of God when you skip the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Because in the end, Jesus didn’t come to write a book. He, Himself, is the WORD of God and it is He who, in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, assimilates us, His Church, into Him. (It’s not the other way around!) Those that stay away from the Mass Jesus commanded do not experience this fullness.
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With_Questions
Guest
I am perfectly aware that according to the Bible not everyone who says “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 7:21).
However, again, I do not know the hearts and minds of anyone who says “Lord, Lord”. Only the Lord Jesus Christ does.
The only knowledge I have on anyone is what they say and what they do. And even this knowledge is incomplete and fallible, particularly when the only medium for this knowledge is the internet.
So without perfect knowledge, including the knowledge of the heart and mind, how can I be absolutely certain that anybody who professes Christ with their lips is indeed not a Christian and instead going to hell.
The answer is that I can not be absolutely certain. Neither can you.
Therefore, since nobody has absolute certainty, this judgement is not ours to make. It is left up to the One who has perfect knowledge and perfect certainty.
N
NonCatholic
Guest
Deceit
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SteveGC
Guest
Sorry, I missed your follow-up question here.
God’s grace is, of course, sufficient for you. Placing yourself outside of His Church, however, can make it more difficult for you to receive and respond to this grace. And that is because grace is primarily (but not exclusively) imparted to Christians sacramentally, which is to say, through the sacraments of The Church (i.e. baptism, reconciliation, the Eucharist). The fact that you have this separation from the primary reception of God’s Grace does not necessarily impact your salvation, but it could. The Church, again, makes no absolute statement regarding the salvation of any individual soul (save for the canonization of the Saints - another thread). But she does proclaim that salvation, which is made possible through Christ, works in the lives of the faithful through the instrument of His Church, even those who separate themselves from Her. Here’s the way The Church puts it, in the Catechism…
*CCC 819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.” *
God Bless
M
MelanieAnne
Guest
“Truth is not a someTHING it is a someBODY. His name is Jesus Christ. When Truth is called a lie, the lights go out, darkness comes…” Fr. John Corapi
It is unfortunate, noncatholic, if Truth bothers you. However, you have absolutely no grounds to call me, or anyone, names, and, indeed, that would be unChristian. And to call the WORD of God, who is Jesus “deceit” is utterly beyond the pale.
You may not call Truth a Lie in this forum. At least you cannot do it without being called out. You have ducked many instances of being called out on one thing or another, but to call Jesus Christ, who is the TRUTH, to call Him a lie, or a a deceit, is going too far.
I submit it is time for you to find another way to pass your time.
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SteveGC
Guest
Try not to get too worked up over NonCatholic.
If he knew the Truth, I feel he would never call it deceit. His type of non-Catholic apologetics is quite abrupt and argumentative, I know. He does indeed seem to have quite an anti-Catholic agenda. These are difficult people to have logical discussions with, as they seem to be dominated by anger over The Church, and are rigid in their misunderstanding.
Appeared to me that he was accusing you of deceiving others (which of course, you weren’t) as opposed to calling Jesus a lie.
Just an observation.
God Bless
If he knew the Truth, I feel he would never call it deceit. His type of non-Catholic apologetics is quite abrupt and argumentative, I know. He does indeed seem to have quite an anti-Catholic agenda. These are difficult people to have logical discussions with, as they seem to be dominated by anger over The Church, and are rigid in their misunderstanding.
Appeared to me that he was accusing you of deceiving others (which of course, you weren’t) as opposed to calling Jesus a lie.
Just an observation.
God Bless
L
LilyM
Guest
Even better - you’re saying I don’t possess Christ now?
N
NonCatholic
Guest
The church is made up of individuals unless you are RC?
N
NonCatholic
Guest
Do you? If so, how did you come to Jesus?
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rinnie
Guest
I think the easiest way to explain is this. When you are RC you believe the Pope has the authority and the Apostles just like the beginning. The best way to say it is this, Jesus left Peter the keys to the kingdom for a reason. Example you have a Judge. For one reason, someone has to have authority.
Now we as RC can teach one another, but here is the big difference, If a RC calls another RC on a matter they will go to the Priest and ask him. Bottom line if this matter does not get settled it could go up to the Pope. Then we believe he has the keys to the kingdom so he has the last say.
Then we all agree with one thing. We must. Jesus did not leave us the Church to separated us, it was to unite us all together.
So to make a long story short we will all get the same and right answer. We believe that the Pope has it from God. If we did not, why believe at all.
In Protestant church’s there really is no authority. Every Pastor has his own opinion. Not in the RC. We must all unite together.
So we can teach, but we do not have authority to give our own opinion. We must stay within the fullness of the Church.
Now don’t get me wrong, we can and do misunderstand at times too, but we except correction and authority from the Pope. The way Jesus told us to.
Now we as RC can teach one another, but here is the big difference, If a RC calls another RC on a matter they will go to the Priest and ask him. Bottom line if this matter does not get settled it could go up to the Pope. Then we believe he has the keys to the kingdom so he has the last say.
Then we all agree with one thing. We must. Jesus did not leave us the Church to separated us, it was to unite us all together.
So to make a long story short we will all get the same and right answer. We believe that the Pope has it from God. If we did not, why believe at all.
In Protestant church’s there really is no authority. Every Pastor has his own opinion. Not in the RC. We must all unite together.
So we can teach, but we do not have authority to give our own opinion. We must stay within the fullness of the Church.
Now don’t get me wrong, we can and do misunderstand at times too, but we except correction and authority from the Pope. The way Jesus told us to.
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NonCatholic
Guest
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elvisman
Guest
If you had bothered to read my post, I said that I probably should have reviewed your statement again. Your problem is that you copied and pasted one man’s opinion (from: www.gracebiblefellowship-tx.org/Sermons*) *as if it were fact.
I didn’t say there were only Apostles there. Again – he was speaking to the authority of the Church, - not the individual. He never says, “Decide on your own what to do with this sinful brother.”
To deny that is to deny the text and add things that just aren’t there.
Don’t really understand the question, be here goes. An individual is not the Church. Your brand of “Lone Ranger Christianity” is not only NOT encouraged in scripture – we are warned against it.
As St. Paul said in 1 Cor. 12:20-26:
***But as it is, there are many parts, yet one body. ***
***The eye cannot say to the hand, “I do not need you,” ******nor ******again the head to the feet, “I do not need you.” ***
***Indeed, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are all the more necessary, and those parts of the body that we consider less honorable we surround with greater honor, and our less presentable parts are treated with greater propriety, whereas our more presentable parts do not need this. But God has so constructed the body as to give greater honor to a part that is without it, so that there may be no division in the body, but that the parts may have the same concern for one another. ******If (one) part suffers, ******all ******the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, ******all ***the parts share its joy.
Do** you? Which body of Christ do you belong to? The one Jesus established 2000 years ago or one that was set up by a man less than a**** hundred**** years ago (Matt. 16:18)? What church are you affiliated with because your profile says, **“none-Personal relationship with Jesus Christ”.
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MelanieAnne
Guest
I do. I know that you have called the WORD of God “Deceit”. But Jesus is not a lie, or a “deceit”. So perhaps you are calling me a liar instead? Or both of us? What is it?
And Steve, thanks for your analysis and opinion. I’m not particularly worked up about the constant attacks on Catholics, which in my experience is almost always done in ignorance. Attacking Jesus gets me going tho’. And if there is any whiff of that, then I want to set the record straight. If someone is simply calling ME a liar, well, I know I’m not one & they’re the one that is utterly uncharitable & unChristian. I am sorry for them but limited in what sort of difference I can make in their understanding.
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