Where do I belong Catholic or LDS

[Todd520]

Exactly. And It was also the second time he tried to suggest that I might be embarrassed by what the Catholic Church teaches on this subject; so another dishonest statement.

Well you do seem very defensive! A couple points for you to remember

• I insert this RCC teaching in response to non-LDS mis-stating the LDS belief
• If it leads to a deeper exploration on the meanings for RCC or LDS, that is a good thing
• the beleifs are not the same but neither are they as different as many portray.

So, yes I do use it as an effective parry agaisnt attack.

 

[Stephen168]

Well you do seem very defensive! A couple points for you to remember

• I insert this RCC teaching in response to non-LDS mis-stating the LDS belief
• If it leads to a deeper exploration on the meanings for RCC or LDS, that is a good thing
• the beleifs are not the same but neither are they as different as many portray.

So, yes I do use it as an effective parry agaisnt attack.

What you use is a lie. I see the same type of strawman lie used by many Mormons. I think it says something about Mormonism when there seems to be no honesty defense of its beliefs.

 

[pipper]

You make a very important point here! Whenever I’vd had discussions with people of other faiths, when I got to Theosis, they often stopped me to say, “We believe the same thing!” When, in fact, they do not.

Deification does NOT change our human essence. We do not change our humanity for Divinity. It is God Who transfigures us by His Grace and should we be called to perform miracles, then it is God who works them through us.

Alex

Exactly, thier is a huge difference. Mormon divinisation teaches that we can become gods ourselves.

Catholic and Orthodox theosis teaches that we can come to share in the energies of God (one God) but not the essence.

 

[ParkerD]

Exactly, thier is a huge difference. Mormon divinisation teaches that we can become gods ourselves.

Catholic and Orthodox theosis teaches that we can come to share in the energies of God (one God) but not the essence.

Hi, Pipper,

I agree. Did you recently see the news that some scientists have figured out that there are more stars in the universe than had been previously thought, and the other news that the idea of “multiverses” explains the origin of this universe and black holes?

It is really fun when LDS beliefs fit in with science and when science discovers that the “Big Bang” may not be so true after all–thus the belief that there can be more “out there” than our human minds currently comprehend, all within God’s purposes, is compatible and consistent with the LDS beliefs in becoming “like Christ” and gaining a “joint throne”.

 

[JeanMichel]

What you use is a lie. I see the same type of strawman lie used by many Mormons. I think it says something about Mormonism when there seems to be no honesty defense of its beliefs.

These line of conversation obviously causes bad feelings. Just by reading this recent interaction it is obvious that negative, emotional responses have taken precedence over the more fruitful exchange of ideas and recognition where differences exist.

No one has said the doctrine of Divinization and the doctrine of exaltation are the same. However, I would urge all critics to be extremely careful before attacking Mormonism about this issue of becoming gods. These two teachings may be different, but there are similarities and both use the words, “become god or gods”.

Mormons have stated repeatedly that their doctrine exists in their scriptures. We critics often enjoy going back to statements made by their past leaders and then state “that” is what Mormons really believe. It is very confusing for non-Mormons to understand that a prophet is not really a prophet unless he speaks as a prophet. However, this argument also has a long history in the Catholic Church and we should understand it more often than we demonstrate.

If I had my “ruthers” I wish no one would criticize Mormons on their teaching of exaltation or becoming gods. It is just too easy to show by verses in the Bible, statements of the early Church Fathers, and the Catechism itself that Christianity definitely has taught and teaches that we may become god(s). This is qualified by orthodoxy that we will partake fully in the nature of God, but we do not become God. God does not make his creatures equal do himself.

This topic should only preferably be discussed in openly, but in a reverent atmosphere. The Spirit is needed to even begin to grasp the concept. This is a very difficult forum for this topic to be discussed properly. It is complicated and it demands that all parties understand their own doctrines fully. Otherwise, we are left with name calling, half-truths, and misunderstandings.

 

[StevenFrancis]

I need someone to help me.I use to go to church regularly but got away from the church and now I am searching for where I belong…I believe in the blood of Jesus to cover my sins and was Baptized Baptist. My sister is LDS and I have been listening to them and going to their church a bit but I really don’t know about the Book of Mormon.It’s possible I guess.I had asked for a sign and I got the sign answered so I thought they were the true church.Then I read here of errors in it. Why would there be errors and why would God need to build another church ? But I did get an answer to my prayer.I feel as a battle for my very being is waged.They have pretty much let me know if I send them away now they believe I will go to hell.They say they have the priest hood. I look at their fruits and they do good things and are moral good people with good fruits.( Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. ) I’m not a Baptist any more.I’ve seen too many things I feel they have disappointed me in the fruits.Now I’m trying to find where I belong.I look a the Catholic Church and I see both good and not so good things over time.No offense meant to anyone.How do I know if they are the true church? LDS or Catholic ??? For those who wouldn’t mine saying a prayer for me I’d appreciate it this is killing me inside.

I have prayed for you. I haven’t read the rest of this thread, because much of it is quite wordy. I can only recommend a couple things. A little reading, and a lot of prayer. I would read the Holy Gospel according to St. John. Slowly, thoughtfully, and prayerfully. Read with your heart open to the Holy Spirit, and let the Holy Spirit move you to deep and full honesty with your self and your conscience.

Before reading the Gospel, say a prayer inviting the Holy Spirit.

Come Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of your faithful and kindle in them the fire of your love.
Send forth your Spirit, and they shall be created.
And You shall renew the face of the earth.

Let us pray.

O, God, who by the light of the Holy Spirit, did instruct the hearts of the faithful, grant that by the same Holy Spirit we may be truly wise and ever enjoy His consolations. Through Christ Our Lord. Amen.

I have faith that if you’ll do this, that before you even finish this Gospel, you will find your answer.

The peace of our Lord and Saviour be with you, and may the Spirit of our Lord guide your thoughts in the will of the Father through the Son.

 

[KathleenGee]

I think when Mormons exalt and progress to divinity, it gives the impression of man seeking the forbidden fruit…of becoming as gods.

I also recall reading in the book of Genesis…about reference to gods…and I see that as indicative that the creation stories were indeed myths drawn on ancient cultures of belief in multiple gods…

But in the Jewish Genesis…the reference seems to say…well in times past…people (their people)…believed in multiple gods…but we have progressed to believe in one God.

Priests instruct us to become ‘little christs’…meaning, living the Eucharist out into the world and continuing the Lord’s work of salvation and redemption for those around us. We see ourselves more as collaborators in God with the graces He has given us. Ours is a daily faith walk of cooperation and interaction with the Lord and growing in awareness of Him and His directives.

 

[Stephen168]

These line of conversation obviously causes bad feelings. Just by reading this recent interaction it is obvious that negative, emotional responses have taken precedence over the more fruitful exchange of ideas and recognition where differences exist.

No one has said the doctrine of Divinization and the doctrine of exaltation are the same. However, I would urge all critics to be extremely careful before attacking Mormonism about this issue of becoming gods. These two teachings may be different, but there are similarities and both use the words, “become god or gods”.

Mormons have stated repeatedly that their doctrine exists in their scriptures. We critics often enjoy going back to statements made by their past leaders and then state “that” is what Mormons really believe. It is very confusing for non-Mormons to understand that a prophet is not really a prophet unless he speaks as a prophet. However, this argument also has a long history in the Catholic Church and we should understand it more often than we demonstrate.

If I had my “ruthers” I wish no one would criticize Mormons on their teaching of exaltation or becoming gods. It is just too easy to show by verses in the Bible, statements of the early Church Fathers, and the Catechism itself that Christianity definitely has taught and teaches that we may become god(s). This is qualified by orthodoxy that we will partake fully in the nature of God, but we do not become God. God does not make his creatures equal do himself.

This topic should only preferably be discussed in openly, but in a reverent atmosphere. The Spirit is needed to even begin to grasp the concept. This is a very difficult forum for this topic to be discussed properly. It is complicated and it demands that all parties understand their own doctrines fully. Otherwise, we are left with name calling, half-truths, and misunderstandings.

It is interesting that you would respond, considering you have been caught being dishonest in defense of Mormonism, also. A few of us asked you at the time if you were really Mormon, because it seemed irrational that a non-Mormon would lie to defend a religion they were not a part of. There are non-Mormons that have defended Mormonism by clarifying their beliefs but none, except you, have felt a need to lie to do it. It is frustrating to have a dialog with someone you know is not honest.
I also wonder if the Mormon need to claim that Catholic and Mormon beliefs and practices are the same, like you have suggested here, is a form of proselytizing.

 

[Todd520]

These line of conversation obviously causes bad feelings. Just by reading this recent interaction it is obvious that negative, emotional responses have taken precedence over the more fruitful exchange of ideas and recognition where differences exist.

Thanks for the fair commentary JeanMicheal

I urge the OP to

• ask his Catholic theology questions on appropriate sub-forum at this wonderful site,
• take his LDS specific questions to one of the LDS forum sites like MADB

We don’t want this thread to become a boxing ring, and it’s against the rules for LDS to evangelize here (rightly so too)

 

[JeanMichel]

It is interesting that you would respond, considering you have been caught being dishonest in defense of Mormonism, also. A few of us asked you at the time if you were really Mormon, because it seemed irrational that a non-Mormon would lie to defend a religion they were not a part of. There are non-Mormons that have defended Mormonism by clarifying their beliefs but none, except you, have felt a need to lie to do it. It is frustrating to have a dialog with someone you know is not honest.
I also wonder if the Mormon need to claim that Catholic and Mormon beliefs and practices are the same, like you have suggested here, is a form of proselytizing.

Stephen, please read my post; do not read something that is not there. I have been a student, as in I study, have a passion for, religion. It is something I do as a hobby. As a result of this hobby of many decades I have earned a rather in-depth knowledge of many religions. Although I feel a very deep, strong kinship with Catholicism, I am not active in any organized religion. To be very frank, and possibly offensive, it is people with your similar attitude as to why I reject organized religion. This attitude is so offensive to me that I choose not to be exposed to it. To me it is the very height of spiritual hypocrisy and scholarly dishonesty. I reject it totally and completely. It sickens me to read it, to hear it, or to see it. I believe the Body of Christ is much greater than any church’s membership. It encompasses the entirety of those who recognize God as their God and seek to follow him. The attitude you exemplify is why there have been so many wars over religion; why people were nailed to a cross; why they were burned at a stake; and why so many were murdered and tortured because they did not possess “your” beliefs.

I have not “lied” (this is also the kind of utter nonsense that occurs when ignorance prevails; ("I can’t think of anything to say, so I will insult you). Please read this very SLOWLY, I will say it in caps, THERE ARE SIMILARITIES. Divinization or Theosis IS NOT Exaltation. Please go back and read the Patristic Fathers. Read all of them! It is an absolute impossibility to deny the facts of history and the reality of current doctrine.

This has left such a sour taste in my mouth; I think it is time to listen to Handel’s Messiah. It is always a pick-me-up and jettisons the ugliness known as the worst form of religion in the Christian church today.

 

[JeanMichel]

I think when Mormons exalt and progress to divinity, it gives the impression of man seeking the forbidden fruit…of becoming as gods.

I also recall reading in the book of Genesis…about reference to gods…and I see that as indicative that the creation stories were indeed myths drawn on ancient cultures of belief in multiple gods…

But in the Jewish Genesis…the reference seems to say…well in times past…people (their people)…believed in multiple gods…but we have progressed to believe in one God.

Priests instruct us to become ‘little christs’…meaning, living the Eucharist out into the world and continuing the Lord’s work of salvation and redemption for those around us. We see ourselves more as collaborators in God with the graces He has given us. Ours is a daily faith walk of cooperation and interaction with the Lord and growing in awareness of Him and His directives.

What a sweet, kind, reflective edit. After getting so riled over S’s edit, I am glad to have gone back and read yours. Now I am in the mood to hear Handle’s Messiah and to really get into it. God bless you.

 

[PJM]

=Todd520;7328003]Well you do seem very defensive! A couple points for you to remember

• I insert this RCC teaching in response to non-LDS mis-stating the LDS belief
• If it leads to a deeper exploration on the meanings for RCC or LDS, that is a good thing
• the beleifs are not the same but neither are they as different as many portray.

So, yes I do use it as an effective parry agaisnt attack.

Please help me out here Todd:

TRUE or False ?

LDS is a cult?
LDS Do not accept the Trinity ?
LDS do not accept Jesus as God
LDS do not accept the realities of heaven and Hell ?
LDS do not accept the concept of Grace ?
LDS do not accept the TRUTH of the Bible ?

If true as I understand them to be; you think these are insignifiant differences?

Love and prayres Todd, my friend.

Pat

 

[Stephen168]

It is frustrating to have a dialog with someone you know is not honest.
JeanMichel;7329971:

To be very frank, and possibly offensive, it is people with your similar attitude as to why I reject organized religion.

Seems like an irrational reason to reject organized religion. Maybe you feel some satisfaction dialoging with someone you know would lie to you to defend their position. Maybe lying to each other is a game you have within Mormonism. I just don’t understand it. It is the height of scholarly dishonesty.
The only reason I point out the dishonesty is for others reading this forum. Personally, I get some satisfaction knowing Mormons have to lie to defend their religion; it shows how false it is. I just do what I can to point it out.

 

[Todd520]

Please help me out here Todd:
TRUE or False ?

LDS is a cult?
LDS Do not accept the Trinity ?
LDS do not accept Jesus as God
LDS do not accept the realities of heaven and Hell ?
LDS do not accept the concept of Grace ?
LDS do not accept the TRUTH of the Bible ?

If true as I understand them to be; you think these are insignifiant differences?

Love and prayres Todd, my friend.

Pat

Pat, why are you steering this thread off-topic
We have loads of similiarities plus significant differences.
These have been debated in other threads quite extensively

Here is my only reply to your diversion in this thread. Pls start a new thread if you must pursue.

• every religion by definition is a cult (#3 is in the eye of the beholder, which is why Catholics are often called a cult)
  1 : formal religious veneration : worship
  2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
  3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
• LDS worship the Father, Son and HolyGhost. We do not understand nor accept the nicean definition of ‘three persons in one being’
• Jesus is Divine (calling him God the Father as well implies dissociative identity disorder)
• ? skip as you did not articulate the question, I don’t know what your refer to.
• LDS know Grace is essential to our salvation. You must be explict on your definition to go any deeper.

– LDS accept the bible as sacred scripture.

 

[KathleenGee]

My point is that Mormonism appears to be going in the opposite direction of mainline Judeo Christianity…a regression back to the forbidden fruits and multiple gods and using faith language that uses some of the same wordings as ours but different processes.

When I try to understand the thinking and ideas behind Mormonism, it is like walking into a room full of mirrors pointing in different directions, giving one an idea in one direction, then pulling it out and then going in another direction. That is why someone said it is also like being in a shooting gallery when attempting to build bridges, dialogue or question Mormon beliefs.

The standardization to mainline thinking is happening…doing away with concepts or practices supposedly promoted as correction and truth to the apostates. So there is a real and continual issue of what do Mormons really believe.

Faith and mutual understanding in communication just shouldn’t be that difficult or confusing among believers. But it is very much so with Mormonism…can’t follow it or its history…

 

[zaffiroborant]

Pat, why are you steering this thread off-topic
We have loads of similiarities plus significant differences.
These have been debated in other threads quite extensively

Here is my only reply to your diversion in this thread. Pls start a new thread if you must pursue.

• every religion by definition is a cult (#3 is in the eye of the beholder, which is why Catholics are often called a cult)
  1 : formal religious veneration : worship
  2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
  3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
• LDS worship the Father, Son and HolyGhost. We do not understand nor accept the nicean definition of ‘three persons in one being’
• Jesus is Divine (calling him God the Father as well implies dissociative identity disorder)
• ? skip as you did not articulate the question, I don’t know what your refer to.
• LDS know Grace is essential to our salvation. You must be explict on your definition to go any deeper.

– LDS accept the bible as sacred scripture.

There you go calling the Trinity Sybil again.

 

[Todd520]

Since the OP is no longer engaged, I think this thread has run it’s course.

 

[PJM]

=Todd520;7330393]Pat, why are you steering this thread off-topic
We have loads of similiarities plus significant differences.
These have been debated in other threads quite extensively

Here is my only reply to your diversion in this thread. Pls start a new thread if you must pursue.

• every religion by definition is a cult (#3 is in the eye of the beholder, which is why Catholics are often called a cult)
  1 : formal religious veneration : worship
  2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
  3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents

• LDS worship the Father, Son and HolyGhost. We do not understand nor accept the nicean definition of ‘three persons in one being’

• Jesus is Divine (calling him God the Father as well implies dissociative identity disorder)

• ? skip as you did not articulate the question, I don’t know what your refer to.

• LDS know Grace is essential to our salvation. You must be explict on your definition to go any deeper.

– LDS accept the bible as sacred scripture.

***Hi Todd,

I certanly have no intent of derailing this string.

The point I seemingly failed to make as there ARE PROFOUND differences in what we believe and practice.***

God’s continued Blessings,
Pat

 

[KathleenGee]

Todd,

I pray for you…how you can deny early church history…and believe in 3 gods…the Father was never spirit and bones…was never a man before…

Because there is too much inference in deifying man in Mormonism…and their beliefs are being revised again.

 

[DocProto]

And then you have apologists like Peterson writing articles about how the Trinity and the Mormon “godhead” concept are really the same thing and claiming that Catholic theologians are in agreement with LDS theology in the matter.

Cite your reference.

If you’re talking about Peterson’s recent Mormon Times article, if you actually read it, you’d know that he said no such thing.