Where do modern witchcraft beliefs and practices come from?

[Hatikvah]

Obviously, most religions and faiths use different means of codifying beliefs and practices, whether through sound tradition, a canon, or some other means. Notable examples would be that Islam uses the Qur’an and Hadiths (though Hadith literature isn’t regarded as inspired), Christianity uses Scripture and Sacred Tradition to varying degrees, and Rabbinical Judaism tends to use Written and Oral Torah.

But I’m confused as to where most of the modern traditions of witchcraft that don’t have holy books receive their practices and beliefs. In some cases (e.g., Thelema with its canon), they do have books and codes of ritual.

And where some of these modern religions claim that their practices originate in pre-Christian European culture (since discredited, [Source], [Source]), there are many varying beliefs among them (e.g., Wiccan afterlife, views of divinity), but it has to come from somewhere!

 

[jane_doe]

Witchcraft/wicca/etc are an EXTREMELY varied group of beliefs, with traditions and beliefs varying from neighbor to neighbor. This is not considered to be a bad thing, but a diversity to be celebrated. Some pull from historical cultural beliefs (Celtic, Old Norse, Native American, Indian, etc), some from modern innovations. Close to no beliefs are held universally, no any text, nor any practices.

If you want to understand a Wiccan believer, it is best to treat them as an individual rather than with any generalization.

(Disclaimer: I am not an actual Wiccan believer, and can only relay what I have learned from chatting with those believers. If you want to chat with some yourself, there are a number of online forums, including a bunch on religiousforums.com.)

 

[Hatikvah]

Witchcraft/wicca/etc are an EXTREMELY varied group of beliefs, with traditions and beliefs varying from neighbor to neighbor. This is not considered to be a bad thing, but a diversity to be celebrated. Some pull from historical cultural beliefs (Celtic, Old Norse, Native American, Indian, etc), some from modern innovations. Close to no beliefs are held universally, no any text, nor any practices.

If you want to understand a Wiccan believer, it is best to treat them as an individual rather than with any generalization.

(Disclaimer: I am not an actual Wiccan believer, and can only relay what I have learned from chatting with those believers. If you want to chat with some yourself, there are a number of online forums, including a bunch on religiousforums.com.)

Thanks for the response! I’ve understood that from some reading and from a little personal interaction myself, but I didn’t believe the diversity to be that extreme – merely varied, much as the major faiths are.

 

[total_Catholic]

Satan.

 

[PraiseChrist]

New Advent Catholic encyclopedia on the Occult:
newadvent.org/cathen/11197b.htm

New Advent Catholic encyclopedia on witchcraft:
newadvent.org/cathen/15674a.htm

Catholic Answers provides a lot of help, talks also about Wicca
catholic.com/magazine/articles/witchcraft-101

Although we should respect other people, we shouldn’t respect false beliefs.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Satan.

Isn’t that what the Church Lady says? Seriously, do you know anyone who practices pagan or other wiccan traditions? Many of them go back to the old days, a bit of pre-Christian, converged into Christianity-type things. It’s quite interesting.

And since you are here on the non-Catholic Religions Forum, perhaps it might be better manners to refrain from a posting like that. I’m sure someone can help you with the general rules of charity here.

I have enjoyed reading the comments in the past from Wiccan posters.

 

[total_Catholic]

Isn’t that what the Church Lady says? Seriously, do you know anyone who practices pagan or other wiccan traditions? Many of them go back to the old days, a bit of pre-Christian, converged into Christianity-type things. It’s quite interesting.

And since you are here on the non-Catholic Religions Forum, perhaps it might be better manners to refrain from a posting like that. I’m sure someone can help you with the general rules of charity here.

I have enjoyed reading the comments in the past from Wiccan posters.

Your comment sir is exactly why Anglicanism is dying a well deserved death. Your church cannot even stand for basic Christian tenets. I’m not interested in the beliefs of somebody who worships the creation and ignores the creator.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Your comment sir is exactly why Anglicanism is dying a well deserved death. Your church cannot even stand for basic Christian tenets. I’m not interested in the beliefs of somebody who worships the creation and ignores the creator.

You don’t have to be interested in other beliefs. You are posting on this forum, however, so I would assume that there is some interest in learning.

And my previous comment really doesn’t have much to do with Anglicanism. I’m not sure where that came from.

 

[Nyx]

Pretty difficult to say as Wicca and/or witchcraft (not the same thing) are so varied. If you are talking about Wicca, yes, the belief that it is one of the oldest surviving religions has been discredited, but this is not to say that there are not people who try to follow pre-Christian practices and beliefs in venerating the Gods/Goddesses (obviously to the degree these are known and/or possible and acceptable today). Others on the other hand incorporate more recent ideas (Deities as archetypes for example), and there are a lot of people who incorporate both historical practices and beliefs, modern ideas, and beliefs and practices from other religions/spiritual paths ( someone who venerates Celtic Gods,believes in the concept of karma, chakras, etc)

Yes, basically if you want to know where a Wiccan person’s beliefs come from you will have to learn from them as individuals.

As for witchcraft, it is even harder to say. Not only you don’t have a definition of what witchcraft is or isn’t but you are dealing with various cultural and religious groups (think this way- for some people any form of ancestor veneration is considered witchcraft, for others it is an integral part of their religion and many of them would never refer to it as “witchcraft”).
Technically, witchcraft can be practiced by anyone no matter their religious beliefs (or lack of them- there are non-religious witches and even Atheist ones). Many of their practices come from what is known as “folk magic”, many employ different forms of divination, some are trying to get the help of different spirits or Gods for their work, etc.

This said, in many cases, I think “modern traditions of witchcraft” might go hundreds or even thousands years ago- the idea behind them anyway.

 

[Micosil]

Satan.

The Salem witch trials were a long time ago, I think you’re a bit late.

No, I am not denying the existence of fallen angels, but saying “Satan” hardly leaves open any room for rational discourse. There’s a whole anthropological way these religions and belief systems developed, and I believe it is this that the OP was referring to.

Your comment sir is exactly why Anglicanism is dying a well deserved death. Your church cannot even stand for basic Christian tenets. I’m not interested in the beliefs of somebody who worships the creation and ignores the creator.

I was under the impression this subforum was for rational, civil debate…

 

[Perplexity]

Hatikvah: While Wicca is a religion, witchcraft is just a practice (literally a “craft”). Think of it like martial arts: there are many different styles, you can even design your own, and you can practice it no matter your beliefs. That said, some styles do incorporate specific beliefs. For example, Stregheria incorporates Diana and her consort, and can rely on The Gospel of the Witches. So, styles of witchcraft can be based on everything from ancient or medieval manuscripts to personal experience with what actually works.

As a practice, witchcraft is most at home within Paganism because Paganism provides a spiritual context in which most of its concepts are embraced and encouraged, but one needn’t be Pagan to find a style compatible with her beliefs.

 

[Hatikvah]

As for witchcraft, it is even harder to say. Not only you don’t have a definition of what witchcraft is or isn’t but you are dealing with various cultural and religious groups (think this way- for some people any form of ancestor veneration is considered witchcraft, for others it is an integral part of their religion and many of them would never refer to it as “witchcraft”).
Technically, witchcraft can be practiced by anyone no matter their religious beliefs (or lack of them- there are non-religious witches and even Atheist ones). Many of their practices come from what is known as “folk magic”, many employ different forms of divination, some are trying to get the help of different spirits or Gods for their work, etc.

This said, in many cases, I think “modern traditions of witchcraft” might go hundreds or even thousands years ago- the idea behind them anyway.

Well, as for the term “witchcraft,” it isn’t meant to be offensive – it is merely a general term. But I’m referring to Wiccan-like practices and faiths. Of course, they are extremely diverse with lineages and practices varying, and the deities followed have different conceptions, and so on, and so on.

Divination, “protection circles” (probably not the formal name) drawn with a ceremonial knife like an athame, typically rites of passage or initiation, what has been termed “magick” (the “k” differentiates from stage magic), and like practices are included. Yes, magick can be practiced by people of different faiths, like Kabbalah in Judaism, though that is distinct from Rabbinical Judaism.

 

[Hatikvah]

No, I am not denying the existence of fallen angels, but saying “Satan” hardly leaves open any room for rational discourse. There’s a whole anthropological way these religions and belief systems developed, and I believe it is this that the OP was referring to.

Yes, it’s precisely that!

 

[Hatikvah]

Hatikvah: While Wicca is a religion, witchcraft is just a practice (literally a “craft”). Think of it like martial arts: there are many different styles, you can even design your own, and you can practice it no matter your beliefs. That said, some styles do incorporate specific beliefs. For example, Stregheria incorporates Diana and her consort, and can rely on The Gospel of the Witches. So, styles of witchcraft can be based on everything from ancient or medieval manuscripts to personal experience with what actually works.

As a practice, witchcraft is most at home within Paganism because Paganism provides a spiritual context in which most of its concepts are embraced and encouraged, but one needn’t be Pagan to find a style compatible with her beliefs.

This makes sense, thanks. And I’m aware that what we might term witchcraft or magick is present in some other faiths like Kabbalah (which is considered to be Judaism, and it’s not necessarily magick, but it’s esoteric in nature). But thank you. And please know that I merely used witchcraft as an umbrella term, not intended to be a pejorative term, because I didn’t know very much in particular about the topic.

 

[wmscott]

Satan.

That was the very first thing that popped into my mind when I read the question.

 

[wmscott]

Taken from this LINK

The Catechism on Witchcraft

There are a great many kinds of sins. Scripture provides several lists of them. The Letter to the Galatians contrasts the works of the flesh with the fruit of the Spirit: “Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.” **(CCC 1852) **

God can reveal the future to his prophets or to other saints. Still, a sound Christian attitude consists in putting oneself confidently into the hands of Providence for whatever concerns the future, and giving up all unhealthy curiosity about it. Improvidence, however, can constitute a lack of responsibility. **(CCC 2115) **

All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to “unveil” the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone. **(CCC 2116) **

All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one’s service and have a supernatural power over others—even if this were for the sake of restoring their health—are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another’s credulity. (CCC 2117)

Prayer to St. Michael the Archangel

St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray, and do thou, O Prince of the heavenly hosts, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan, and all the evil spirits, who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.

 

[Perplexity]

Ya know, when I was Catholic, I hated it when I was told I worshipped Mary. No matter what I said, some Protestants insisted that they knew what I believed better than I did.

But, since becoming Pagan, I’ve found that some Catholics do the very same thing to Pagans: it doesn’t matter what you say to them, they’ll insist that they know what you believe better than you do.

Just as Protestants will say it doesn’t matter that Catholics aren’t intending to worship Mary because their actions still count as worship, Catholics will say it doesn’t matter that witches aren’t intending to do anything satanic because their actions still count as satanic.

And just as Catholics will roll their eyes at how Protestant literature describes Catholic belief and practice, Pagans will roll their eyes at how Catholic literature describes witchcraft belief and practice.

 

[Micosil]

That was the very first thing that popped into my mind when I read the question.

Taken from this LINK

The Catechism on Witchcraft

There are a great many kinds of sins. Scripture provides several lists of them. The Letter to the Galatians contrasts the works of the flesh with the fruit of the Spirit: “Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.” **(CCC 1852) **

God can reveal the future to his prophets or to other saints. Still, a sound Christian attitude consists in putting oneself confidently into the hands of Providence for whatever concerns the future, and giving up all unhealthy curiosity about it. Improvidence, however, can constitute a lack of responsibility. **(CCC 2115) **

All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to “unveil” the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone. **(CCC 2116) **

All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one’s service and have a supernatural power over others—even if this were for the sake of restoring their health—are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another’s credulity. (CCC 2117)

Prayer to St. Michael the Archangel

St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray, and do thou, O Prince of the heavenly hosts, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan, and all the evil spirits, who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.

I’m having a hard time understanding where these knee-jerk reactions are coming from. The OP is not looking for any of this. This is not the topic of this thread. The topic is, what is the anthropological origin of these faith systems, beliefs, practices, and rituals? Not what the Catechism says about fortune-tellers, not what it says about necromancy, not what it says about palm readers, and not what it says about astrologers.

 

[TheAtheist]

I’m having a hard time understanding where these knee-jerk reactions are coming from. The OP is not looking for any of this. This is not the topic of this thread. The topic is, what is the anthropological origin of these faith systems, beliefs, practices, and rituals? Not what the Catechism says about fortune-tellers, not what it says about necromancy, not what it says about palm readers, and not what it says about astrologers.

This is something i’ve always noticed when Christians speak of anything coming out of Western paganism.

My understanding of the Catholic Church’s orientation to other world religions comes from a book a Catholic friend gave to me - it was one of the writings of your…err… shall we call him “Pope Emeritus” at this point…

http://www.ignatius.com/Content/Site107/ProductImages/TTCB-P.jpg

Its been a while since i’ve read the work, but if i recall correctly, he was pointing out the twin difficulties of being tolerant in a pluralistic world while remaining faithful to the traditions and message of Jesus of Nazareth as understood by the Catholic Church.

He also outlines the differences found between other major world religions and your Church, and does so in rather sympathetic manner. Excluding Judaism due to its rather unique historical connection to Christianity, he seems to interpret the existence of other religious faiths as merely a kind of “longing for God.”

---

So… things like Buddhism, Hinduism, Daoism, heck even Islam are seen as man’s ignorant yet good-natured attempt to touch the Divine…

.

Of course the moment you mention “Wicca,” the response I’ve often seen is “SATAN!!!”

Which makes me highly confused about you guys.

Because when it comes to the Major World Religions, you are willing to say they are in Error. Not necessarily aligned with the Devil. Just in Error.

That’s not the case when it comes to…well…anything coming out of Western Paganism.

Its like a panic button goes off in your heads.

So is there… some sort of theological point i’m missing regarding Western Paganism? Why do you all so strongly associate it with the diabolic workings as opposed to say… i dunno… Buddhism for instance?

 

[Hatikvah]

I’m having a hard time understanding where these knee-jerk reactions are coming from. The OP is not looking for any of this. This is not the topic of this thread. The topic is, what is the anthropological origin of these faith systems, beliefs, practices, and rituals? Not what the Catechism says about fortune-tellers, not what it says about necromancy, not what it says about palm readers, and not what it says about astrologers.

Precisely. I’m fully aware that Christianity condemns any form of divination, contact with the “Other Side” (save for prayer), and magicks. The closest thing we’d have to that is our long tradition of mysticism that is not condemned, especially apparitions. But the nature of this is anthropological, and we should not dismiss every belief system we disagree with or that has played no part in our lives as “of Satan” just because of that fact.

Of course the moment you mention “Wicca,” the response I’ve often seen is “SATAN!!!”

I agree: but, to the early Church, I don’t think that that was the response. You have to figure that the early Christians were surrounded entirely by polytheists, save for the Jews, and they didn’t win converts by automatically condemning. Saint Paul would’ve been instantaneously arrested for such a thing on his missions, as with everyone else until the Edict of Milan (AD 313). We shouldn’t have the same attitude. At least, if we were to, it should be consistent.