Where do modern witchcraft beliefs and practices come from?

[TheAtheist]

I agree: but, to the early Church, I don’t think that that was the response. You have to figure that the early Christians were surrounded entirely by polytheists, save for the Jews, and they didn’t win converts by automatically condemning. Saint Paul would’ve been instantaneously arrested for such a thing on his missions, as with everyone else until the Edict of Milan (AD 313). We shouldn’t have the same attitude. At least, if we were to, it should be consistent.

I can’t speak to what the early Churches interaction with the wider Western Pagan world might have been… although at least from what the Classicists tell me, the initial years of Christianity were more rife with Interfaith squabbles with the various different forms of Second Temple Judaism. For the most part, until identified by the Roman authorities as being “a problem,” it seems Christianity was merely off in its own corner of the world…doing its own thing with the rest of the Graeco-Roman world blissfully unaware.

But like I said… if we put aside history for a moment…

If i were to show a Christian (or even an Ex-Christian for that matter) the following pictures…

http://www2.tb-kumano.jp/en/kumano-travel/images/morning-ceremony



(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)



(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

And ask them “What comes to mind when you look at this?”

Well - i kind have the feeling that the first couple of pictures might get a very different reception than the last one.

As Micosil pointed out… there’s almost a knee-jerk reaction to this… which I find absolutely fascinating.

Its like there’s almost a pre-programmed response in certain Christian adherents mindsets…

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Well - i kind have the feeling that the first couple of pictures might get a very different reception than the last one.

As Micosil pointed out… there’s almost a knee-jerk reaction to this… which I find absolutely fascinating.

Its like there’s almost a pre-programmed response in certain Christian adherents mindsets…

You make very good points, Athiest, and ask very good questions. I wonder if it’s too close to European Christians - we do share a heritage and in many cases our holy places and saints and prayers have been mingled with the old pagan ones.

I wonder if Christians in Korea or Japan or China feel the same about THEIR old ways. My experience is with Asians who have emigrated to the US (and they do practice the old ways), but I don’t know if that is true for those living in Asia. Probably.

 

[TheAtheist]

You make very good points, Athiest, and ask very good questions. I wonder if it’s too close to European Christians - we do share a heritage and in many cases our holy places and saints and prayers have been mingled with the old pagan ones.

Your guess is probably better than mine Compline - i’m not European, i’m not Christian. Just an outsider taking notice of an odd…shall we say…behaviorial “tick” if you will.

I wonder if Christians in Korea or Japan or China feel the same about THEIR old ways. My experience is with Asians who have emigrated to the US (and they do practice the old ways), but I don’t know if that is true for those living in Asia. Probably.

Can’t really speak to the issue regarding Japan or China…but i do have an interesting story regarding Korea.



This is a picture of a placard on a Catholic Church in Seoul, Korea. The Placard’s translation is "Happy Birthday Buddha."

Now i know for some Westerners, which an almost xenophobic fear of “Eastern Spirituality corrupting the Church” that this must be some sort of anathema. OBVIOUSLY there must be something wrong with that Korean Catholic Church.

… so I do what I normally do - I ask a Question.

“What’s up with the Birthday Placard to Buddha?”

The response from the Koreans I spoke to was quite interesting:

Its not that bizzare to see Catholics in my country visiting Buddhist temples on the Buddha’s birthday. We see him as a great philosopher, akin to the way Westerners see Socrates, We obviously don’t see him as a divine figure -more like an ethical teacher who was doing the best he could before the arrival of the Incarnation. He’s also an important person to the Buddhists, who at least on an institutional level we are on good terms with.

In other words = We like Buddha, he’s a good philosopher. We think his followers are wrong about him being Divine, that’s Jesus obviously.

Again, Buddhists, at least by the Korean Catholic understanding, are in “Error” but still can be good people at the end of the day.

But as this may sound blindingly obvious - its one thing to say to a person “You are wrong.”

Its quite another to throw the accusation out that “You are actively worshipping the source of all Evil”

 

[wmscott]

I’m having a hard time understanding where these knee-jerk reactions are coming from. The OP is not looking for any of this. This is not the topic of this thread. **The topic is, what is the anthropological origin of these faith systems, beliefs, practices, and rituals? **Not what the Catechism says about fortune-tellers, not what it says about necromancy, not what it says about palm readers, and not what it says about astrologers.

And in my first post I was acknowledging that it was my first and foremost thought and agreeing with another poster that it comes from Satan. The rest I provided to illustrate what the Catholic Church teaches on such matters.

 

[Nyx]

Divination, “protection circles” (probably not the formal name) drawn with a ceremonial knife like an athame, typically rites of passage or initiation, what has been termed “magick” (the “k” differentiates from stage magic), and like practices are included. Yes, magick can be practiced by people of different faiths, like Kabbalah in Judaism, though that is distinct from Rabbinical Judaism.

Divination is an ancient practice. There are different forms of divination (like using tarot cards, tea, coffee, bones, Quija board, etc), but the practice itself might have started, in a form or another, with some of the first human groups.

Rites of passage- if you refer strictly to Wicca, I believe they can be traced back to Gerald Gardner. With the mention that there are other traditions in Wicca and there are people who perform their own initiation rites as they don’t formally belong to a traditional coven. On the other hand you could say that certain rites of passage existed and exist in almost all human cultures (and that different groups within the large society have their own rites), and that Wiccan rites of passage (or Christian ones for the matter) are just that: religious rites of passage that existed today just as they have existed from prehistorical times (in different forms). See, in this theory, the Christian baptism, Wiccan rite of initiation and the rite of initiation in a certain society play the same role- the mark that the person is now a full member of that group.

Magick- many of the magical practices of Wicca (and witchcraft) can be traced back to “folk magic”, obviously with many modern “adaptations”. If you want to go further there are many theories regarding magic. One of the ones I’ve read refers to sympathetic magic and modern ideas (both Wiccan and not)-for example imagining (or visualization, however you want to call it) your success/purpose (basically it was said that it could be considered a modern form of imitating an action to obtain that result) or use of corresponding objects/substances for the same purpose (as in using different colours or crystals for different purposes). Some specialists did try to tie the belief in sympathetic magic with some Paleolithic groups (yes, those cave paintings).

Astrology is again a very old belief and it is shared by some Wiccans and some non-Wiccans as well. The idea that certain magical practices are influenced by the Moon phase is a not so modern idea based on a belief in astrology- that the movement of planets influences us

This is why I’ve said that while Wicca is not an ancient religion, many beliefs and practices might be much older.

 

[Cider]

Where does BTW ( British Traditional Wicca) come from? IMO it’s a syncretism of ceremonial magic, secret societies like the Rosicrucians and the Golden Dawn, inspired by Greek and Roman lunar calendars, Jungian archetypes instead of actual polytheism with a heavy emphasis on duality. I see Christian themes in it also, a male and female they refer to as Lord and Lady, a dying and resurrecting god, deities that are associated with different subjects similar to the saints, which is also similar to historical pagan practices.

 

[mattp0625]

The Salem witch trials were a long time ago, I think you’re a bit late.

No, I am not denying the existence of fallen angels, but saying “Satan” hardly leaves open any room for rational discourse. There’s a whole anthropological way these religions and belief systems developed, and I believe it is this that the OP was referring to.

I was under the impression this subforum was for rational, civil debate…

He is right. The bible is explicit when it says witchcraft, sorcery and the like is against God.

A common theme among the writings of exorcists, including Father Gabriel Amorth, is that witchcraft opens the door to demonic influence and worse.

Do not be fooled into thinking it is something else.

 

[Padres1969]

Thanks for the response! I’ve understood that from some reading and from a little personal interaction myself, but I didn’t believe the diversity to be that extreme – merely varied, much as the major faiths are.

Yeah as diverse as Protestant Christianity can be, more Earth based religions like Wicca, Neo-Paganism, Paganism, etc… can be wildly diverse. I mean at their core some Wiccans are duotheist, some are monotheist, some are polytheist, some are Goddess worshippers, or pantheists. They don’t even have a unified belief in what “god or gods” they worship like diverse Christians do. And by and large their religion for Wiccans and other Pagans is their own or only broadly tied to other fellow Pagans. It’s about as far from institutional religion like Catholicism as you can get.

 

[Padres1969]

He is right. The bible is explicit when it says witchcraft, sorcery and the like is against God.

A common theme among the writings of exorcists, including Father Gabriel Amorth, is that witchcraft opens the door to demonic influence and worse.

Do not be fooled into thinking it is something else.

Core issue with that though is you’re confusing witchcraft with modern wicca and neo-paganism. Neither of which are witchcraft in the traditional biblical sense.

 

[mattp0625]

Core issue with that though is you’re confusing witchcraft with modern wicca and neo-paganism. Neither of which are witchcraft in the traditional biblical sense.

Perhaps there are nuanced differences, but the core goal is the same or similar. That is, to manipulate outcomes. The focus is on self and idols, and definitely not on God.

 

[Padres1969]

Perhaps there are nuanced differences, but the core goal is likely the same or similar. That is, to manipulate outcomes. The focus is on self or idols and definitely not on God.

I don’t know if I’d describe Wicca or Neo-Paganism as trying to “manipulate outcomes” any more than say a Christian does when they pray for something from God. Now some Wiccans and Neo-Pagans do also practice traditional witchcraft, but one doesn’t necessarily flow from the other or vice versa. As for idol worship, that’s again a generalization that doesn’t necessarily hold true for all pagans. Some yes clearly, but not all. As for worshiping God most of them don’t, at least not the Christian understanding of God at any rate.

 

[mattp0625]

I don’t know if I’d describe Wicca or Neo-Paganism as trying to “manipulate outcomes” any more than say a Christian does when they pray for something from God. Now some Wiccans and Neo-Pagans do also practice traditional witchcraft, but one doesn’t necessarily flow from the other or vice versa. As for idol worship, that’s again a generalization that doesn’t necessarily hold true for all pagans. Some yes clearly, but not all. As for worshiping God most of them don’t, at least not the Christian understanding of God at any rate.

I suppose you think it’s coincidence that most don’t worship God.

What, then, is the goal?

 

[Padres1969]

I suppose you think it’s coincidence that most don’t worship God.

What, then, is the goal?

To worship nature, the sun, the Goddess or any of the numerous other variants of what Neo-Pagans believe. Again, trying to pigeonhole Neo-Pagans is ultimately pointless since there are so many variations.

 

[mattp0625]

To worship nature, the sun, the Goddess or any of the numerous other variants of what Neo-Pagans believe. Again, trying to pigeonhole Neo-Pagans is ultimately pointless since there are so many variations.

Agree to disagree. Tho overall theme is the same, and the theme is not of God.

To take it a step further, manipulation is not from God. It’s from the enemy.

Whether one burns white sage or creates a potion or keeps crystals or talks to spirit guides, one is attempting to manipulate by other means.

 

[Micosil]

From The Encyclopedia of Witches, Witchcraft and Wicca by Rosemary Ellen Guiley, we have a more objective, anthropological answer to the OP:

Western concepts of witchcraft evolved from magical beliefs and practices in ancient Egypt, the middle East and the classical and hellenistic worlds. Spell-casting and interaction with intermediary spirits were part of daily life. The Greeks and Romans made wide use of curses, usually written on lead tablets, to gain advantage in love, business and sport. The intermediary spirits were not servants of evil, but a host of beings who mediated and interfered in human affairs with a variety of agendas. The Greek daimon, for example, could be good or bad.

Later on, as far as Wicca/modern Pagan Witchcraft is concerned, it has this to say:

Witchcraft, a Pagan religion. In the 1950s, Witchcraft was re-created as a Pagan religion, centered on the worship of the Goddess and her consort, the Horned God, and the practice of benevolent magic. The father of this revival was Gerald B. Gardner, an English civil servant whose interest in the occult led, he said, to his initiation in 1939 into a coven of witches in England. It is difficult to say whether Gardner intended to create a new religion or whether it grew spontaneously from public interest in his writings and activities.

Gardner said his coven was descended from a long line of hereditary witches, who practiced both a magical craft and a Pagan religion, “The Craft of the Wise” and “The Old religion.” Other covens scattered about England have claimed the same; most remain rather secretive, and it is unknown exactly how far back their lineages go or exactly what has constituted religious Witchcraft over the centuries.

Gardner said his coven was descended from a long line of hereditary witches, who practiced both a magical craft and a Pagan religion, “The Craft of the Wise” and “The Old religion.” Other covens scattered about England have claimed the same; most remain rather secretive, and it is unknown exactly how far back their lineages go or exactly what has constituted religious Witchcraft over the centuries.

In the latter part of the 19th century, American folklorist Charles Godfrey Leland said he discovered a hereditary heritage of witches in Tuscany, who worshiped Aradia, daughter of Diana. In the 1920s, British anthropologist Margaret A. Murray advanced the idea that the witches who were persecuted during the witch hysteria were organized pagan religious cults who worshiped the Horned God. Both Leland and Murray have been criticized by historians, and the idea that witches maintained a lineage of organized religion was discredited.

Isolated groups and cults did keep alive various pagan rites and customs, especially those related to health and fertility, such as seasonal festivals. There is evidence of a flourishing cult of Diana in western and central Europe in the fifth and sixth centuries, which apparently survived to the Middle Ages. The Benandanti, an agrarian cult of nocturnal witch-fighters, survived in northern Italy to the 16th and 17th centuries. The Strigoi of Romania, witches both living and dead, possessed supernatural powers and fought each other at night. Another Romanian cult, the Calusari, was a secret society of cathartic dancers whose patronness was the Queen of the Fairies, or Diana/Herodia/Aradia.

At the time of Gardner’s initiation, Murray’s theory had not been put to rest. Gardner accepted her theory of a European witch cult. He feared that Witchcraft was in danger of dying out due to a lack of young members and wanted to publicize it. He had been given a framework of rituals, including initiations and a system of greater and lesser Sabbats by his coven. He obtained additional ritual material from Aleister Crowley, whom he met in 1946. Because the Witchcraft Act of 1736 was still on the books, his coven allegedly discouraged him from writing openly about Witchcraft. Instead, he wrote a novel High Magic’s Aid under the pseudonym “Scire,” published in 1949. The book contained the rituals and beliefs Gardner had been given by his coven.

After the repeal of the Witchcraft Act in 1951, Gardner broke away from the coven and formed his own coven. To flesh out his rituals, he apparently borrowed from Leland, the Ordo Templi Orientis (O.T.O.), of which he was a member, masonry, the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, rosicrucianism, Eastern mysticism and magic (Gardner had spent many years in the East), folklore and mythology. In 1953, he initiated Doreen Valiente, with whom he collaborated in writing and revising the rituals. According to Valiente, Gardner’s material showed heavy influence by the O.T.O. and Crowley, which she removed and rewrote in simpler form. Gardner never acknowledged Crowley’s exact role in his rituals. He maintained that Crowley belonged to the “witch cult” and may have had some hand in reconstructing the rituals, but had kept his oaths of secrecy.

…]

A huge growth spurt of Witchcraft took place in the 1960s and 1970s, during a revival of interest in occultism. most early converts were women and came from the ranks of the white middle class, followed by those in creative arts, academia and professions. Gardner’s revival of Witchcraft spread to other countries, including the United States, Canada, Australia, France, Germany and Japan.

(cont’ed in next post)

 

[Micosil]

In the initial boom, there were suddenly more would-be Witches than covens to initiate them; initiation was required in order to consider oneself a Witch. Many people were attracted for the wrong reasons—a fad or manipulation of others. Most of these eventually dropped out of the movement; some splintered off in their own directions. Gardner’s Witchcraft became known as Gardnerian, and other “traditions” were created or came to light. Alex Sanders, an Englishman who claimed to be a hereditary Witch, founded the Alexandrian tradition, based heavily on the rituals of Gardner.

Some traditions claimed ancient, hereditary lineages; some of these claims were soon proved to be false. Numerous traditions were born, lived brief lives and died, while others grew, survived and evolved. Emphasis on the Goddess appealed to many women in the feminist movement and others who felt shortchanged and disenfranchised by Christianity and other mainstream religions.

By the 1980s, most Witches no longer believed that the Craft was an unbroken religious tradition since pagan fancy and revived an interest in Witchcraft. In 1957, Valiente “hived off” to form her own coven.

Now that I’ve gone through the trouble of researching this issue objectively, since some people here are not interested in scholarly research, I will leave this here, and unsubscribe from this thread.

God bless.

 

[total_Catholic]

churchpop.com/2016/08/05/exclusive-church-desecration-was-demonic-retaliation-priest-suspects/

So practicing Wicca is harmless eh? Prayers for the priest, his parishioners and their well beings.

 

[mattp0625]

churchpop.com/2016/08/05/exclusive-church-desecration-was-demonic-retaliation-priest-suspects/

So practicing Wicca is harmless eh? Prayers for the priest, his parishioners and their well beings.

Agreed. Many books written by Catholic exorcists indicate it is a doorway to the enemy. The “type” practiced does not matter.

 

[scapularkid8]

As for witchcraft, it is even harder to say. Not only you don’t have a definition of what witchcraft is or isn’t but you are dealing with various cultural and religious groups (think this way- for some people any form of ancestor veneration is considered witchcraft, for others it is an integral part of their religion and many of them would never refer to it as “witchcraft”).
Technically, witchcraft can be practiced by anyone no matter their religious beliefs (or lack of them- there are non-religious witches and even Atheist ones). Many of their practices come from what is known as “folk magic”, many employ different forms of divination, some are trying to get the help of different spirits or Gods for their work, etc.

Here’s where it gets interesting: I’ve heard some people go so far as to say Christian prayer and spells are really not that different. Spells are merely rituals or specific words done with a wish for a desired result…Even the Jesus Prayer in Eastern Christianity is merely referred to in Greek as “the wish.”

But typically we as Christians will make a delineation with the definition saying our prayers would all have the aim of worship, I guess. Spells don’t really have to have any kind of deity involved, as you mentioned.

 

[Medawlinno]

Yes, that’s correct in many ways - think of ‘spell’ as ‘prayer’ - when one prays for something, essentially it’s the same thing as a petition spell. Pray for healing, same as healing spell, etc.

The methodology may be a little different, but the basic premise is the same.

“Burning white sage” is no different than burning incense (actually incense is used as well), talking to a spirit guide is no different than talking to a ‘guardian angel’ - there are plenty of parallels.

One does not worship nature, but rather one sees the divine in nature and worships the divine through nature (or whatever else a particular belief may have).

Candles are used in churches just as they are used in many pagan celebrations.

A sacred oil is not much different than a “potion”. The list goes on.

When you get right down to it, there’s not a lot of difference - same intents, slightly different way of effecting them.

It is only a doorway “to the enemy” if (a) you believe in that particular ‘enemy’ - if the reference is to Satan, remember that Satan is a Judeo-Islamic-Christian deity; he only exists in these belief systems. And b) its’ only a doorway to evil if you allow it to be; which most do not.