Where do souls of non-Christian go after they die?

[goout]

goout:

steve-b:

goout:

steve-b:

goout:

And, we don’t call modern day protestants heretics or call them guilty of heresy. That’s my point. That’s the CC’s official stance.

If they are baptized AND are given the truth, and refuse to believe, they are THEN by definition guilty of heresy.

So a baptized Catholic for instance, who is given the truth and still holds anti-ecclesial positions that are not docile to the faith?

Them too.

Don’t take my word for it

2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. " Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."

Yes, we know the definitions. We proclaim the Gospel to PEOPLE.

And

No need to do that if nobody is guilty regardless of what they believe…right?

No, that’s called indifferentism. We preach the Gospel to people, and don’t accuse then of things like heresy when

1. they are objectively not guilty of it and
2. we are not qualified to pronounce guilt.

 

[steve-b]

No, that’s called indifferentism. We preach the Gospel to people, and don’t accuse then of things like heresy when

1. they are objectively not guilty of it and
2. we are not qualified to pronounce guilt.

That is not how indifferent which is also error is defined

Out of 80 errors defined I chose to highlight the following

From Pius IX

III. INDIFFERENTISM, LATITUDINARIANISM (in extension also Relativism)

1. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true.—Allocution “Maxima quidem,” June 9, 1862; Damnatio “Multiplices inter,” June 10, 1851.
2. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation.—Encyclical “Qui pluribus,” Nov. 9, 1846.
3. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ.—Encyclical “Quanto conficiamur,” Aug. 10, 1863, etc.
4. Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church.—Encyclical “Noscitis,” Dec. 8, 1849.

Point being, there are consequences to these errors in thinking. Free isn’t really free as in license to do whatever one wants without consequence to that choice

AND Re: #17, is also saying, it’s NOT a reasonable hope that all are saved

 

[goout]

goout:

Yes, we know the definitions. We proclaim the Gospel to PEOPLE.

And

No need to do that if nobody is guilty regardless of what they believe…right?

This is an example of indifferentism on your part. The Catholic Church does not hold that all beliefs are the same in the fullness of truth.

If they are baptized AND are given the truth, and refuse to believe, they are THEN by definition guilty of heresy.

and this is the last thing I’m going to say in this circle party:
This statement is a falsehood, point blank, end of story. And you ought to know better. It contains snippets of truth, and uses them toward a prejudicial blanket conclusion that is specifically contrary to the Church’s Magisterial thought.

 

[Lifeisbeautiful3]

Or limbo for un-baptized babies

 

[thistle]

If they are baptized AND are given the truth, and refuse to believe, they are THEN by definition guilty of heresy.

http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=634895&Pg=&Pgnu=&recnu=

Also:

CCC 818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

 

[Willetta_Zavala]

Interesting question. I personally believe that they also enter in the next world because God is same. Doesn’t matter what are our religions.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

goout:

Yes, we know the definitions. We proclaim the Gospel to PEOPLE.

And

No need to do that if nobody is guilty regardless of what they believe…right?

This is an example of indifferentism on your part. The Catholic Church does not hold that all beliefs are the same in the fullness of truth.

It was an example of your point you made to me.

If they are baptized AND are given the truth, and refuse to believe, they are THEN by definition guilty of heresy.

goout:

and this is the last thing I’m going to say in this circle party:
This statement is a falsehood, point blank, end of story. And you ought to know better. It contains snippets of truth, and uses them toward a prejudicial blanket conclusion that is specifically contrary to the Church’s Magisterial thought.

NOT SO.

(emphasis mine)

“The Church’s moral theology has always distinguished betweenobjective or material sin and formal sin. The person who holds something contrary to the Catholic faith is materially a heretic. They possess the matter of heresy, theological error. Thus, prior to the Second Vatican Council it was quite common to speak of non-Catholic Christians as heretics, since many of their doctrines are objectively contrary to Catholic teaching. This theological distinction remains true, though in keeping with the pastoral charity of the Council today we use the term heretic only to describe those who willingly embrace what they know to be contrary to revealed truth. Such persons are formally (in their conscience before God) guilty of heresy”. …. from Colin B. Donovan, STL

Do you see the qualification? (once one is given the truth and goes contrary to it) Thus I made the following answer HERE to your question as well as I gave that answer above.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

If they are baptized AND are given the truth, and refuse to believe, they are THEN by definition guilty of heresy.

http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=634895&Pg=&Pgnu=&recnu=

Also:

CCC 818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

Until one who has been baptized, AND has been given the truth AND THEN they deny that truth THEN they are guilty of the sin they now have knowledge of.

 

[FOG]

Where ever God sees fit for them to go; heaven, purgatory, or hell.

 

[FranciscoN2001]

To deny salvation through Christ with full knowledge and full ability to will not lead to salvation through Christ

 

[thistle]

Until one who has been baptized, AND has been given the truth AND THEN they deny that truth THEN they are guilty of the sin they now have knowledge of.

The Catholic Church does does teach or state that those born into Protestantism are heretics.
Show me a Church document that specifically states they are!

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Until one who has been baptized, AND has been given the truth AND THEN they deny that truth THEN they are guilty of the sin they now have knowledge of.

The Catholic Church does does teach or state that those born into Protestantism are heretics.
Show me a Church document that specifically states they are!

You said that a bit awkwardly. I think I know what you are asking

Look at he definition from the Catechism that I posted. Being born into error and ignorant of the truth isn’t a permanent for ever excuse for someone who remains in error. Such Ignorance only works until one is educated in the truth. After THAT, if one continues in their error, they are no longer innocent of error, THEN they are responsible / culpable for their error(s)

 

[thistle]

Such Ignorance only works until one is educated in the truth.

But what that that mean? Almost all Protestants are born, brought up and die in Protestantism. That does not make them heretics.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Such Ignorance only works until one is educated in the truth.

But what that that mean? Almost all Protestants are born, brought up and die in Protestantism. That does not make them heretics.

It means

As the CCC teaches (about ignorance)

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

That’s why the Church

1. evangelizes,
2. provides answers for people’s questions via CA, and a whole host of agencies and services
3. provides 2000 yrs of Church history and teaching via internet access
4. which amounts to mountains of materials, for anybody to access and read easily and freely.

We have NEVER been in an age of such easy access to ALL information by EVERYONE who desires to access it… All one has to do is put a little bit of effort to access it.

 

[thistle]

It means

As the CCC teaches (about ignorance)

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility . This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

That’s why the Church

1. evangelizes,
2. provides answers for people’s questions via CA, and a whole host of agencies and services
3. provides 2000 yrs of Church history and teaching via internet access
4. which amounts to mountains of materials, for anybody to access and read easily and freely .

We have NEVER been in an age of such easy access to ALL information by EVERYONE who desires to access it… All one has to do is put a little bit of effort to access it.

None of that makes modern Protestants heretics.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

It means

As the CCC teaches (about ignorance)

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility . This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

That’s why the Church

1. evangelizes,
2. provides answers for people’s questions via CA, and a whole host of agencies and services
3. provides 2000 yrs of Church history and teaching via internet access
4. which amounts to mountains of materials, for anybody to access and read easily and freely .

We have NEVER been in an age of such easy access to ALL information by EVERYONE who desires to access it… All one has to do is put a little bit of effort to access it.

None of that makes modern Protestants heretics.

You don’t comprehend that passage from the CCC?

 

[thistle]

You don’t comprehend that passage from the CCC?

The Church does not state anyone who is not a Catholic is a heretic. Protestants do not fall under Catholic Church law/jurisdiction or whatever word to use.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

You don’t comprehend that passage from the CCC?

The Church does not state anyone who is not a Catholic is a heretic. Protestants do not fall under Catholic Church law/jurisdiction or whatever word to use.

Explain the passage I quoted from the CCC.

And show me where Protestants make their own truths and realities when it comes to salvation.

 

[thistle]

Explain the passage I quoted from the CCC.

The CCC applies to Catholics.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Explain the passage I quoted from the CCC.

The CCC applies to Catholics.

That passage applies to EVERYONE.