Where does the authority of the state come from?

[Bill_7154]

And the state does not ‘grant’ me my rights. My rights are my rights. They are God given. The state having people believe that it gives people their rights is all the more reason to distrust it IMO.

Men in black robes who sit on high behind big desks with gavels who seem to think they have the power to make men rise and sit as they enter and exit the room, with men with guns by their side to make sure poeple abide by such silly rituals… ridiculous.

God and Jesus Christ are the authorities that I hold dear and answer to. Any abiding by laws made by man are because I don’t want a gun pointed in my face, not because I recognize any ‘authority’ they claim to hold. God and Christ hold authority over me and I live my life the best I can according to the laws of God and the teachings of Jesus Christ. I don’t need men with guns to rob my paycheck to give themselves a salary to get me to do what is right. I do what is right because God commands it and because Jesus teaches it.

 

[fakename]

And the state does not ‘grant’ me my rights. My rights are my rights. They are God given. The state having people believe that it gives people their rights is all the more reason to distrust it IMO.

Men in black robes who sit on high behind big desks with gavels who seem to think they have the power to make men rise and sit as they enter and exit the room, with men with guns by their side to make sure poeple abide by such silly rituals… ridiculous.

God and Jesus Christ are the authorities that I hold dear and answer to. Any abiding by laws made by man are because I don’t want a gun pointed in my face, not because I recognize any ‘authority’ they claim to hold. God and Christ hold authority over me and I live my life the best I can according to the laws of God and the teachings of Jesus Christ. I don’t need men with guns to rob my paycheck to give themselves a salary to get me to do what is right. I do what is right because God commands it and because Jesus teaches it.

God gives people rights and the state is an expression of these rights. By “expression” I mean it is a body which concentrates all the information of society and makes decisions based on this. So when the information is bad the state is bad and contrariwise.

At least that’s my interpretation of it.

 

[po18guy]

If people mess things up they mess things up. The Church held huge power for centuries. No enduring success there. At least while democracy is in place there is a possibility of freedom of speech, assembly, religion and non-belief. When all rulers were Catholic, I would have been killed if I expressed my views, making me both unsuccessful and unenduring! Incidentally, “democracy” and "the state’ are not the same thing, and it is not mere semantics to argue that they are. Words have meanings and these words do not mean the same thing.

Um, we are not living in the past here, and it is error to judge past ages using today’s standards. I’ll give you the last shot, 'cause I’m outtie.

 

[Jerry_Westerby]

the Declaration of Independence is worded to express the political theory that rights come from somewhere other than a monarch or unrepresentative parliament. if the king or his government could grant rights, they could take them away.

the Constitution uses this same idea. the congress or the president is not the source of core rights (freedom of speech, assembly, due process, etc.) for the same reason. its an appeal to a higher authority, but the main point is that what the government does not create, it cannot take away. the French use a similar theory with their Declaration of the rights of man and citizen, which achieves the same end, without reference to God. all legal fictions, but very useful.

for everyone who thinks he or she isn’t subject to the laws of the land, that’s what’s great about this country, you can say almost anything you want under the first amendment. but you’ll obey all the laws, sleep under the protection of the police/military and come tax time, you’ll give ceasar his due.

Westerby

 

[Hokomai]

I can tell you this. The authority of ‘the state’ does NOT come from me. I do not recognize any human who works for the government as ‘my leader’ or similar. I bow to the authority of God and Jesus Christ, not men with fancy hats or whatever that work in Washington DC.

Have you ever sworn allegiance to the US? To what exactly were you swearing allegiance?

 

[Bill_7154]

for everyone who thinks he or she isn’t subject to the laws of the land, that’s what’s great about this country, you can say almost anything you want under the first amendment. but you’ll obey all the laws, sleep under the protection of the police/military and come tax time, you’ll give ceasar his due.

Westerby

If by country you mean the people I won’t argue with you, if by country you mean government I want no part of it. I don’t want police protection, I provide my own. I obey moral laws because God and Jesus want me to. I obey other laws because I don’t want men with guns sticking their guns in my face and robbing me of my hard earned money through fees and fines, etc etc.

And the police have no duty to protect people, they can not successfully be sued for not protecting someone who calls for assistance. As far as the military goes, if it were not sticking it’s fingers in every country across the globe and one of the aspects of why we are the most in dept nation in the world but were focused on national defense I might entertain the benefits of it.

As it stands realistically, if this country were invaded by another country that country is not coming for MY stuff. They might be coming for Bill Gates stuff and some other people’s stuff, but I"m pretty sure they are not chomping at the bit to get ahold of my stuff so I’m realistically not worried about an invasion either. (And rich people ensure that I kick in the kitty to protect their stuff against invasion, potential invaders have no interest in the stuff I own). I will defend my life, my families lives, and my neighbors lives if foreign invaders threatened them, other than that I am not worried about foreign invasion either. Rich people have reason to worry, I don’t have much reason to. Ceasar robs me, I don’t ‘give’ him anything.

 

[Bill_7154]

Have you ever sworn allegiance to the US? To what exactly were you swearing allegiance?

I did so in government controlled schools where I was brainwashed to do so. I have since come to my senses and am also a free thinking adult who doesn’t allow himself to be programmed they way I did in government run schools when I was a child.

 

[Jerry_Westerby]

If by country you mean the people I won’t argue with you, if by country you mean government I want no part of it. I don’t want police protection, I provide my own. I obey moral laws because God and Jesus want me to. I obey other laws because I don’t want men with guns sticking their guns in my face and robbing me of my hard earned money through fees and fines, etc etc. …

I should have been clearer. I need protection from people who think they provide their own protection.

Does Jesus want you to obey the* Uniform Commercial Code*, as enacted? or have you thought it out that far?

Westerby

 

[Bill_7154]

I should have been clearer. I need protection from people who think they provide their own protection.

Does Jesus want you to obey the* Uniform Commercial Code*, as enacted? or have you thought it out that far?

Westerby

So you assume I am dangerous and a threat to you because I assert that I protect myself? That makes sense. Do you protect yourself or do you stand still and get stabbed/shot/whatever when someone is threatening your life? Or do you dial 911 and hope the police are faster than the bullet coming out of the gun that was just fired at you?

And I don’t know what the uniform commercial code is.

 

[Jerry_Westerby]

So you assume I am dangerous and a threat to you because I assert that I protect myself? That makes sense. Do you protect yourself or do you stand still and get stabbed/shot/whatever when someone is threatening your life? Or do you dial 911 and hope the police are faster than the bullet coming out of the gun that was just fired at you?

And I don’t know what the uniform commercial code is.

I red flag anyone taking the law into his own hands out of misguided fears about government, or who speaks with open, unthinking contempt about civil authority, especially from a Catholic in disobedience to the Church teachings about the duties of a citizen to government.

The duties of citizens

2238 Those subject to authority should regard those in authority as representatives of God, who has made them stewards of his gifts:43 "Be subject for the Lord’s sake to every human institution. . . . Live as free men, yet without using your freedom as a pretext for evil; but live as servants of God."44 Their loyal collaboration includes the right, and at times the duty, to voice their just criticisms of that which seems harmful to the dignity of persons and to the good of the community.

2239 It is the duty of citizens to contribute along with the civil authorities to the good of society in a spirit of truth, justice, solidarity, and freedom. The love and service of one’s country follow from the duty of gratitude and belong to the order of charity. Submission to legitimate authorities and service of the common good require citizens to fulfill their roles in the life of the political community.

2240 Submission to authority and co-responsibility for the common good make it morally obligatory to pay taxes, to exercise the right to vote, and to defend one’s country: …

Westerby

 

[fakename]

I red flag anyone taking the law into his own hands out of misguided fears about government, or who speaks with open, unthinking contempt about civil authority, especially from a Catholic in disobedience to the Church teachings about the duties of a citizen to government.

Westerby

It’s not like Bill doesn’t have a point (obviously one should defend oneself if the other option is to call 9-1-1).

And anyways it seems that one can say anything about any present government since whether or not its laws are useful is a debatable prudential decision.

Plus we should probably disobey some laws if they interfere with equity. Therefore it is not right that we should obey every law or hold authoritative figures in such admiration that their inevitable and daily failings should be beyond our sight. The law was made for people and not the other way around.

 

[Jerry_Westerby]

It’s not like Bill doesn’t have a point (obviously one should defend oneself if the other option is to call 9-1-1).

And anyways it seems that one can say anything about any present government since whether or not its laws are useful is a debatable prudential decision.

Plus we should probably disobey some laws if they interfere with equity. Therefore it is not right that we should obey every law or hold authoritative figures in such admiration that their inevitable and daily failings should be beyond our sight. The law was made for people and not the other way around.

It depends on the context. If you’re Rosa Parks, riding the bus in disobedience is a good thing. mindless fear mongering on a message board about evil government is something quite different.

FYI, the “police have no duty to protect you” is a rule meaning that the police aren’t civilly liable if they arrive too late, it doesn’t mean they sit around eating donuts instead of rolling code.

Westerby

 

[Bill_7154]

I red flag anyone taking the law into his own hands out of misguided fears about government, or who speaks with open, unthinking contempt about civil authority, especially from a Catholic in disobedience to the Church teachings about the duties of a citizen to government.

Westerby

What does 'taking the law into one’s own hands mean?

And what makes you think that I 'take the law into my own hands? That is a pretty broad generalization you are making there. And when you tie it into ‘misguided’ fears about government, that is an interesting choice of wording too. I would moreso characterize myself as having contempt and lack of respect for government.

And I would ask you to demonstrate your assertion that I speak with “open, unthinking comtempt for civil authority” Please be sure to fully cover the unthinking part if you please.

As far as: Catholic in disobedience to the Church teachings about the duties of a citizen to government I am newly Catholic so do not know the Chruches teachings about duties of a citizen to government. I am in a process of growing and learning as a Catholic, me being newly Catholic. Are you in the process of learning and growing as a Catholic or have you achieved a certain status where you are beyond learning? Have you been given any authority from God or Jesus to pass judgement on others expressing their thoughts and ideas?

I am also interested in learning what passage from the bible did that came from, if in fact it came from the bible. I am interested in reading more. Also, would there be any other passages from the bible that may speak in terms that are different than those you choose to post with respect to authority figures?

For example, could the devil himself present as an authority figure? Are authority figures immune from sin? Should they be blindly trusted? I’m certainly no expert, but I am interested in learning from all possible angles and want to make sure I have all the information available. Are you providing me with all the possible information as it relates to the subject at hand in that passage or is there more that is relevant elsewhere that one may want to consider before forming a complete and well informed opinion?

If you can help me learn I would appreciate that. But I request all relevant information on the topic at hand from the bible. That is the document I would have to go by first. And I know there is a whole lot of information in there that can and is interpreted in different ways, sometimes by the same people, at different times in their lives.

If the passage came from somewhere other than the bible is that a higher authority than the bible or a lesser authority? Is it of more or less importance than the bible?

Please continue to educate me. I do not claim to know everything or have all the answers. Since you have choosen to loosely characterize me with written word here with such strong language, directed at me personally, I would hope that you would indulge me and allow me the opportunity to learn. Otherwise I am sort of left feeling attacked rather than assisted. I hope that was not your intention.

I have been taught to trust the Bible first and foremost, and then look to Church Doctrine as means of learning the Catholic Faith. You did not indicate where that passage came from. Nor do I know if there is potentially conflicting information in the Bible or Catholic Doctrine.

Peace,
Bill

 

[Jerry_Westerby]

…

And I would ask you to demonstrate your assertion that I speak with “open, unthinking comtempt for civil authority” Please be sure to fully cover the unthinking part if you please. …

I assumed, apparently incorrectly, that you recognized the CCC and were going to explain your disagreement with the magesterium.

you speak for yourself quite eloquently. Q.E.D.

Westerby

 

[Jerry_Westerby]

Bill, I see I’ll probably have to explain some things.

“CCC” is short for “Catechism of the Catholic Church”, which is a deposit of what we believe, and why. “Magesterium” means,

77 "In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them their own position of teaching authority."35 Indeed, "the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time."36

the number in front is a paragraph number, the ones in the middle are footnotes, to the bible or to important Church sources. you can find the CCC online.

so if the Church directs you to respect civil authority, you should take that injunction seriously, at least presumptively so.

Westerby

 

[Bill_7154]

I assumed, apparently incorrectly, that you recognized the CCC and were going to explain your disagreement with the magesterium.

you speak for yourself quite eloquently. Q.E.D.

Westerby

More condescension. Yet I forgive you as that is what Jesus has taught me to do.
God Bless,
Bill

 

[Bill_7154]

Bill, I see I’ll probably have to explain some things.

“CCC” is short for “Catechism of the Catholic Church”, which is a deposit of what we believe, and why. “Magesterium” means,

the number in front is a paragraph number, the ones in the middle are footnotes, to the bible or to important Church sources. you can find the CCC online.

so if the Church directs you to respect civil authority, you should take that injunction seriously, at least presumptively so.

Westerby

Sould I put it above what the bible teaches me about the falibility of man? Should I put it above the teachings of Jesus Christ?

Since the bible is such a large book I’m sure it’s impossible to pull out every passage that may speak to government. Maybe Chruch Doctrine has some things that relate to Government?

And what about when the duty to God and Christ conflicts with the duty to government? What should one do? Do you have the divine answer to that question?

And I can see that you took offense since you are likely law enforcement of some sort or another. And rather than simply stating that, being honest with yourself and with me, you choose to engage in personal attack and condescension.

While I am not well versed with various documents that are connected to the Church, I speak from the heart with honesty and do my best to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, to treat thy neighbor as thyself. And therefore, again, I forgive you for your mischaracterization of me based on your own personal emotional reaction to my post.
God Bless and God be with you,
Bill

 

[Jerry_Westerby]

Sould I put it above what the bible teaches me about the falibility of man? Should I put it above the teachings of Jesus Christ? …

I’m making a point for Catholics who accept the teaching authority of the Church as expressed in the CCC.

and I’m definitely not LEO.

Westerby

 

[fakename]

It depends on the context. If you’re Rosa Parks, riding the bus in disobedience is a good thing. mindless fear mongering on a message board about evil government is something quite different.

FYI, the “police have no duty to protect you” is a rule meaning that the police aren’t civilly liable if they arrive too late, it doesn’t mean they sit around eating donuts instead of rolling code.

Westerby

But what I meant was that it is debateble to what extent something is mindless fear-mongering in any present situation, no matter the POV where-from the speaker speaks. So in matters of opinion, there should be freedom of opinion.

And the very lack of a rule whereby the police are civilly liable, it may be argued, is what makes police less effective or more dangerous on the margin.

 

[fakename]

Sould I put it above what the bible teaches me about the falibility of man? Should I put it above the teachings of Jesus Christ?

Since the bible is such a large book I’m sure it’s impossible to pull out every passage that may speak to government. Maybe Chruch Doctrine has some things that relate to Government?

Bill

Disagreeing with the non-infallible magisterium depends on how good and authoritative your argument is. So perhaps you could disagree with something on the apparent authority of the bible which is surly more infallible than non-infallible.

But I think the Church does have its own infallibly true political doctrine.