Where does the Bible say that Jesus is God? (Split)

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adrift said:
I was quoting Jesus.

Patripassionism is A form of Monarchianism, which postulated that there is only one person in the Trinity, so that logically God the Father became man, a much as the Son, and suffered on the Cross for mankind.

Monarchianism
A heretical doctrine begun in the second century, that so stressed God’s unity of nature as to deny the Trinity of Persons. Three forms are distinguishable: crude monarchianism denied any distinction of persons in the Godhead and claimed that the Father became incarnate. The modalist type admitted only a distinction of functions in God, who as Father created the world, as Son redeemed, and as the Holy Spirit sanctified the world. The subordinationist variety recognized a real distinction of persons but subordinated one to the other.

Please read the thread.
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I just think this whole thread is mere speculation and bears testimony to the reality that human beings have a long history of “trying to advance themselves over their brothers”

“My God is bigger than yours” is a symptom of the disease of disunity which is afflicting the world, from the beginning of civilized concordance up until today.

The words “my God is bigger and better than yours” stems from the ego and has no manifest action. God’s Will demands action and this thread is nothing but something that begins with words and ends with words, and even ends with segregation.

God is a God of Truth. Segregation through WORDS is not truth. Segregation through character and passion to abide by the Will of God is Truth.

“For whosoever shall do the will of God, he is my brother, and my sister, and mother.” Mark 3:35

Now you may say, “well here you are Mr. Servant, using words to elevate YOURSELF above us”

🙂

Well actually, no, I’m hoping to inspire us all, INCLUDING MYSELF to strive to always have the Will of God in mind when posting on CAF. Let us strive to find points of unity in our DEEDS, so that we walk together in a common path of service in the hope that we can make this world a better place…
 
Tomdstone said:
Is God the Son omniscient?
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Yes he is.

One Person, two natures.

As God, he knows everything. This is how he can read the hearts of men and see the future.

As man, he doesn’t and has the capacity to grow and learn, as he did. This is why he can also say that there are some things the Son doesn’t know, but the Father only, because it is the truth that in his human nature, his knowledge is finite.
 
porthos11 said:
Yes he is.

One Person, two natures.

As God, he knows everything. This is how he can read the hearts of men and see the future.

As man, he doesn’t and has the capacity to grow and learn, as he did. This is why he can also say that there are some things the Son doesn’t know, but the Father only, because it is the truth that in his human nature, his knowledge is finite.
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I think this duality is confusing, but it speaks to the Divine Station of Christ.

When He says

. “I and My Father are One”,

yet also says,

. “My Father is greater than I”

There is both a similarity and difference. Neither can be overlooked.

And when He says,

. “These are not My words, but Him that sent Me”

It speaks of His station as a Messenger of God,
rather than the Originator or the Words of God. i.e., God

In that sense, in a logical use of our language, we must separate the two, as we would in mathematical equations, and not be in a hurry to expediently identify One with the Other, which is “Greater”, while still appreciating that One is at One with the Other … 😉
 
St. Augustine De Trinitate

The following dissertation concerning the Trinity, as the reader ought to be informed,
has been written in order to guard against the sophistries of those who disdain to begin with
faith, and are deceived by a crude and perverse love of reason. Now one class of such men
endeavor to transfer to things incorporeal and spiritual the ideas they have formed, whether
through experience of the bodily senses, or by natural human wit and diligent quickness,
or by the aid of art, from things corporeal; so as to seek to measure and conceive of the
former by the latter. Others, again, frame whatever sentiments they may have concerning
God according to the nature or affections of the human mind; and through this error they
govern their discourse, in disputing concerning God, by distorted and fallacious rules. While
yet a third class strive indeed to transcend the whole creation, which doubtless is changeable,
in order to raise their thought to the unchangeable substance, which is God; but being
weighed down by the burden of mortality, whilst they both would seem to know what they
do not, and cannot know what they would, preclude themselves from entering the very path
of understanding, by an over-bold affirmation of their own presumptuous judgments;
choosing rather not to correct their own opinion when it is perverse, than to change that
which they have once defended. And, indeed, this is the common disease of all the three
classes which I have mentioned,—viz., both of those who frame their thoughts of God according
to things corporeal, and of those who do so according to the spiritual creature, such
as is the soul; and of those who neither regard the body nor the spiritual creature, and yet
think falsely about God; and are indeed so much the further from the truth, that nothing
can be found answering to their conceptions, either in the body, or in the made or created
spirit, or in the Creator Himself.

Peace
 
St. Augustine De Trinitate

Further, it is difficult to contemplate and fully know the substance of God; who
fashions things changeable, yet without any change in Himself, and creates things temporal, yet without any temporal movement in Himself. And it is necessary, therefore, to purge our minds, in order to be able to see ineffably that which is ineffable; whereto not having yet attained, we are to be nourished by faith, and led by such ways as are more suited to our capacity, that we may be rendered apt and able to comprehend it. And hence the Apostle says, that “in Christ indeed are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge;” and yet has commended Him to us, as to babes in Christ, who, although already born again by His grace, yet are still carnal and psychical, not by that divine virtue wherein He is equal to the Father, but by that human infirmity whereby He was crucified. For he says, “I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ and Him crucified;” and then he continues, “And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.” And a little after he says to them, “And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.”

Peace
 
St. Augustine De Trinitate

All those Catholic expounders of the divine Scriptures, both Old and New, whom I
have been able to read, who have written before me concerning the Trinity, Who is God,
have purposed to teach, according to the Scriptures, this doctrine, that the Father, and the
Son, and the Holy Spirit intimate a divine unity of one and the same substance in an indivisible equality;5 and therefore that they are not three Gods, but one God: although the
Father hath begotten the Son, and so He who is the Father is not the Son; and the Son is
begotten by the Father, and so He who is the Son is not the Father; and the Holy Spirit is
neither the Father nor the Son, but only the Spirit of the Father and of the Son, Himself also co-equal with the Father and the Son, and pertaining to the unity of the Trinity. Yet not
that this Trinity was born of the Virgin Mary, and crucified under Pontius Pilate, and buried,
and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven, but only the Son. Nor, again, that
this Trinity descended in the form of a dove upon Jesus when He was baptized; nor that,
on the day of Pentecost, after the ascension of the Lord, when “there came a sound from
heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind,” the same Trinity “sat upon each of them with cloven
tongues like as of fire,” but only the Holy Spirit. Nor yet that this Trinity said from heaven,
“Thou art my Son,” whether when He was baptized by John, or when the three disciples
were with Him in the mount, or when the voice sounded, saying, “I have both glorified
it, and will glorify it again;” but that it was a word of the Father only, spoken to the Son;
although the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as they are indivisible, so work indivisibly. This is also my faith, since it is the Catholic faith.

Peace
 
St. Augustine De Trinitate

They who have said that our Lord Jesus Christ is not God, or not very God, or not
with the Father the One and only God, or not truly immortal because changeable, are proved wrong by the most plain and unanimous voice of divine testimonies; as, for instance, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” For it is plain that we are to take the Word of God to be the only Son of God, of whom it is afterwards said, “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,” on account of that birth of His incarnation, which was wrought in time of the Virgin. But herein is declared, not only that He is God, but also that He is of the same substance with the Father; because, after saying, “And the Word was God,” it is said also, “The same was in the beginning with God: all things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made.” Not simply “all things;” but only all things that were made, that is; the whole creature. From which it appears clearly, that He Himself was not made, by whom all things were made. And if He was not made, then He is not a creature; but if He is not a creature, then He is of the same substance with the Father. For all substance that is not God is creature; and all that is not creature is God. And if the Son is not of the same substance with the Father, then He is a substance that was made: and if He is a substance that was made, then all things were not made by Him; but “all things were made by Him,” therefore He is of one and the same substance with the Father. And so He is not only God, but also very God. And the same John most expressly affirms this in his epistle: “For we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know the true God, and that we may be in His true Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”

Peace
 
St. Augustine De Trinitate

“How unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been His counsellor? Or who hath first given to Him and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of Him, and through Him, and in Him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.” But if they will have this to be understood only of the Father, then in what way are all things by the Father, as is said here; and all things by the Son, as where it is said to the Corinthians, “And one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things,” and as in the Gospel of John, “All things were made by Him?” For if some things were made by the Father, and some by the Son, then all things were not made by the Father, nor all things by the Son; but if all things were made by the Father, and all things by the Son, then the same things were made by the Father and by the Son. The Son, therefore, is equal with the Father, and the working of the Father and the Son is indivisible. Because if the Father made even the Son, whom certainly the Son Himself did not make, then all things were not made by the Son; but all things were made by the Son: therefore He Himself was not made, that with the Father He might make all things that were made.

Peace
 
St. Augustine De Trinitate

Chapter 7.—In What Manner the Son is Less Than the Father, and Than Himself.
14. In these and like testimonies of the divine Scriptures, by free use of which, as I have
said, our predecessors exploded such sophistries or errors of the heretics, the unity and
equality of the Trinity are intimated to our faith. But because, on account of the incarnation
of the Word of God for the working out of our salvation, that the man Christ Jesus might
be the Mediator between God and men, many things are so said in the sacred books as to signify, or even most expressly declare, the Father to be greater than the Son; men have erred through a want of careful examination or consideration of the whole tenor of the
Scriptures, and have endeavored to transfer those things which are said of Jesus Christ according to the flesh, to that substance of His which was eternal before the incarnation, and is eternal. They say, for instance, that the Son is less than the Father, because it is written that the Lord Himself said, “My Father is greater than I.” But the truth shows that after the same sense the Son is less also than Himself; for how was He not made less also than Himself, who “emptied Himself, and took upon Him the form of a servant?” For He did not so take the form of a servant as that He should lose the form of God, in which He was equal to the Father. If, then, the form of a servant was so taken that the form of God was not lost, since both in the form of a servant and in the form of God He Himself is the same only-begotten Son of God the Father, in the form of God equal to the Father, in the form of a servant the Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; is there any one who cannot perceive that He Himself in the form of God is also greater than Himself, but yet likewise in the form of a servant less than Himself? And not, therefore, without cause the Scripture says both the one and the other, both that the Son is equal to the Father, and that the Father is greater than the Son. For there is no confusion when the former is understood as on account of the form of God, and the latter as on account of the form of a servant. And, in truth, this rule for clearing the question through all the sacred Scriptures is set forth in one chapter of an epistle of the Apostle Paul, where this distinction is commended to us plainly enough. For he says, “Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God; but emptied Himself, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: and was found in fashion as a man.” The Son of God, then, is equal to God the Father in nature, but less in “fashion.” For in the form of a servant which He took He is less than the Father; but in the form of God, in which also He was before He took the form of a servant, He is equal to the Father. In the form of God He is the Word, “by whom all things are made;” but in the form of a servant He was “made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law.” In like manner, in the form of God He made man; in the form of a servant He was made man. For if the Father alone had made man without the Son, it would not have been written, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.” Therefore, because the form of God took the form of a servant, both is God and both is man; but both God, on account of God who takes; and both man, on account of man who is taken. For neither by that taking is the one of them turned and changed into the other: the Divinity is not changed into the creature, so as to cease to be Divinity; nor the creature into Divinity, so as to cease to be creature.

Peace
 
Servant19 said:
I just think this whole thread is mere speculation and bears testimony to the reality that human beings have a long history of “trying to advance themselves over their brothers”

“My God is bigger than yours” is a symptom of the disease of disunity which is afflicting the world, from the beginning of civilized concordance up until today.

The words “my God is bigger and better than yours” stems from the ego and has no manifest action. God’s Will demands action and this thread is nothing but something that begins with words and ends with words, and even ends with segregation.

God is a God of Truth. Segregation through WORDS is not truth. Segregation through character and passion to abide by the Will of God is Truth.

“For whosoever shall do the will of God, he is my brother, and my sister, and mother.” Mark 3:35

Now you may say, “well here you are Mr. Servant, using words to elevate YOURSELF above us”

🙂

Well actually, no, I’m hoping to inspire us all, INCLUDING MYSELF to strive to always have the Will of God in mind when posting on CAF. Let us strive to find points of unity in our DEEDS, so that we walk together in a common path of service in the hope that we can make this world a better place…
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That’s a lot of speculation. What authority has God given to you to declare these things and that your viewpoint is correct?
 
zz912 said:
That’s a lot of speculation. What authority has God given to you to declare these things and that your viewpoint is correct?
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I speak on the authority of Mark 3:35.

The words of that verse are very clear, no need to speculate 🙂
 
daler said:
It seems to me that humans have a long history of trying to make God in their own image.
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Servant19 said:
I just think this whole thread is mere speculation and bears testimony to the reality that human beings have a long history of “trying to advance themselves over their brothers”
Click to expand...
I don’t think that these two ad hominems coming after each other are coincidental. The old adage of if you can’t address the issue attack the speaker is apt.
35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
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There is no authority given in this verse:rolleyes:

However there is in Matthew 16-20 and that was given to His Church not individuals who misinterpret His will.
 
adrift said:
I don’t think that these two ad hominems coming after each other are coincidental. The old adage of if you can’t address the issue attack the speaker is apt.

.
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There is no intention to attack the speaker. Who is the speaker here, anyway? My question is in regarding simply making sense of something that has always seemed intuitively, on some level, a kind of a “trust me” shell game which, upon examination, resembles too closely to ignore the human tendency to project patterns in their absence when there is a need to do so.

That we are looking for someone like ourselves to identify with is natural, for the child seeks its parents to survive and feel secure, but to reduce God to a mortal like ourselves denies the infinite gulf between us and the Creator of the Infinite Universe, which He has created.

In the creation of dogma, or its repetition, whether to allegiance to authority or tradition, isn’t necessarily valid in a current context. Language evolves, higher understanding requires new paradigms, asks questions according to the progress of civilization, which should not be retarded or condemned for simply arising in the mind, when the heart is so inclined as to seek a sensible answer.

God bless you
 
daler said:
There is no intention to attack the speaker. Who is the speaker here, anyway? My question is in regarding simply making sense of something that has always seemed intuitively, on some level, a kind of a “trust me” shell game which, upon examination, resembles too closely to ignore the human tendency to project patterns in their absence when there is a need to do so.

That we are looking for someone like ourselves to identify with is natural, for the child seeks its parents to survive and feel secure, but to reduce God to a mortal like ourselves denies the infinite gulf between us and the Creator of the Infinite Universe, which He has created.

In the creation of dogma, or its repetition, whether to allegiance to authority or tradition, isn’t necessarily valid in a current context. Language evolves, higher understanding requires new paradigms, asks questions according to the progress of civilization, which should not be retarded or condemned for simply arising in the mind, when the heart is so inclined as to seek a sensible answer.

God bless you
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When exactly did the Baha’i movement start? Were they there at the foundation of Christendom? Had they evolved higher understanding than the Early Church Fathers? Were they there when they laid down the Nicene Creed? Were they at Trent? Did they go through the protestant reformation? did they go through modernism?

I would ask you please. The Baha’i threads are waning thin, please don’t make this thread about Baha’i too, It is about Jesus, Son of God and God the Son.
 
Darryl_B said:
When exactly did the Baha’i movement start? Were they there at the foundation of Christendom? Had they evolved higher understanding than the Early Church Fathers? Were they there when they laid down the Nicene Creed? Were they at Trent? Did they go through the protestant reformation? did they go through modernism?

I would ask you please. The Baha’i threads are waning thin, please don’t make this thread about Baha’i too, It is about Jesus, Son of God and God the Son.
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Hi Darryl, are you stating that a Bahai perspective is not welcome here?
 
Servant19 said:
I speak on the authority of Mark 3:35.

The words of that verse are very clear, no need to speculate 🙂
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Mark 3:31 His mother and his brothers arrived. Standing outside they sent word to him and called him. 32 A crowd seated around him told him, “Your mother and your brothers [and your sisters] are outside asking for you.” 33 But he said to them in reply, “Who are my mother and [my] brothers?” 34 And looking around at those seated in the circle he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 35 [For] whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother.”

It is clear that you need to do His Will. It does not speak to authority, and certainly not any special authority that you have over others. Please explain how this confers any authority on you.
 
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