Where does the Bible say that the church is invisible?

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Protestants claim that the church is invisible. But does the Bible say so?
 
It must be remembered that scripture alone does not require something to be expressly written in the Bible if it can be deduced as a good and necessary consequence of what is said.

With respect to the invisible church, the reasoning goes like this.

The church is the body of Christ. Those who will not be with Him in Heaven are not part of Christ’s true body. Whether someone is part of the body depends on what they believe. Only God knows what someone believes. Therefore it is impossible for any person to be able to point to someone and say that they know they are part of the true body. This would be true even if Christianity had not been fractured. If you go into any Mass at the Catholic Church can you point to anyone that you are absolutely certain will be with Christ in Heaven? No, because you can’t know for sure what anyone believes. If it is not possible to point out anyone that you are sure will be with Christ, then how can the true church on earth be said to be visible. You can’t show me a person who belongs to it for certian so I cannot see it. We can see people who claim to believe but we can’t know.

Augustine, for example recognized that there was a visible and invisible church in dealing with the Catholic Church itself.
 
iaskquestions said:
Protestants claim that the church is invisible. But does the Bible say so?
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The word “church” in the New Testament is used to refer both to the church in the strict sense of all believers in Christ of all times and places, and to the church in the broader sense of visible assemblies gathered around Word and sacraments. St. Paul refers to the church in the stricter sense in 1 Cor. 1:2 as "all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ - their Lord and ours… . This is the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12), whose membership is known only to God, for He alone can see into the human heart and know whether true faith in Christ is present (thus it is “invisible” to the human eye and is an article of faith). In the Apostles Creed we confess that we believe in “the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints.”

At the same time, the New Testament uses the term “church” to refer to the external (“visible” to the human eye) communities (assemblies) of those who profess to be Christians and gather around the means of grace, Word and sacraments. For example, Paul addresses his epistle “to the churches in Galatia.” This broader sense of the term refers to the various congregations in the Roman province of Galatia. These external communities included both true Christians (with true faith in the heart) and unbelievers and hypocrites who were members in name only.
 
iaskquestions said:
Protestants claim that the church is invisible. But does the Bible say so?
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Some protestants claim the church is invisible, not all as a blanket statement. There are many liturgical, apostolic teaching, non-Roman churches that see themselves as part of that original church that is very visible. Whether or not you agree they are part is irrelevant.
 
iaskquestions said:
Show me the quote please.
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On Baptism: Against the Donatists Book 3 Chapter 19 Paragraph 26
But the enemies of this brotherly love, whether they are openly without, or appear to be within, are false Christians, and antichrists. For when they have found an opportunity, they go out, as it is written: “A man wishing to separate himself from his friends, seeks opportunities.” But even if occasions are wanting, while they seem to be within, they are severed from that invisible bond of love. Whence St. John says, “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for had they been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us.” He does not say that they ceased to be of us by going out, but that they went out because they were not of us.
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newadvent.org/fathers/14083.htm

On Christian Doctrine Book 3 Chapter 32 Paragraph 45
  1. The second rule is about the twofold division of the body of the Lord; but this indeed is not a suitable name, for that is really no part of the body of Christ which will not be with Him in eternity. We ought, therefore, to say that the rule is about the true and the mixed body of the Lord, or the true and the counterfeit, or some such name; because, not to speak of eternity, hypocrites cannot even now be said to be in Him, although they seem to be in His Church. And hence this rule might be designated thus: Concerning the mixed Church. Now this rule requires the reader to be on his guard when Scripture, although it has now come to address or speak of a different set of persons, seems to be addressing or speaking of the same persons as before, just as if both sets constituted one body in consequence of their being for the time united in a common participation of the sacraments.
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newadvent.org/fathers/12023.htm
 
iaskquestions said:
Protestants claim that the church is invisible. But does the Bible say so?
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🙂 Catholics also have the invisable Church as seen in Ecclesia Triumphans (Church Triumphant), Ecclesia Penitens (Church Suffering), and Ecclesia Expectans (Church Expectant)
 
b_justb said:
🙂 Catholics also have the invisable Church as seen in Ecclesia Triumphans (Church Triumphant), Ecclesia Penitens (Church Suffering), and Ecclesia Expectans (Church Expectant)
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That’s how I understand it. But, I would say that just because something is invisible that does not mean it does not exist.
Catholics don’t treat the Church Triumphant as if they are invisible, and beyond our grasp. Catholics ask the Church Triumphant to pray for us. So, they are treated as if they are still active members of the body of Christ. Catholics pray for those in purgatory, as they are still members of the body of Christ. And, Catholics pray for those who you call Ecclesia Expectans and the visible Church that is not hidden under a bushel basket but has remained visible from the start.
How can you bring a problem to the Church if you cant find it?
 
b_justb said:
🙂 Catholics also have the invisable Church as seen in Ecclesia Triumphans (Church Triumphant), Ecclesia Penitens (Church Suffering), and Ecclesia Expectans (Church Expectant)
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That reminds me of something I learned in one of my theology classes-- that most of the Church isn’t even on earth – the souls in purgatory and in heaven comprise the greater number of believers. An interesting thing to ponder.
 
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notsmart:
How can you bring a problem to the Church if you cant find it?
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Nice question
The Gospel of St. Matthew 18:15-17 If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
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SyCarl said:
On Baptism: Against the Donatists Book 3 Chapter 19 Paragraph 26]
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I don’t see him stating that the church is invisible. He is talking about the bond of love among Christians.
SyCarl said:
On Christian Doctrine Book 3 Chapter 32 Paragraph 45
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I don’t see him saying that here as well.

Please explain how you think he is saying that the church is invisible.
 
iaskquestions said:
I don’t see him stating that the church is invisible. He is talking about the bond of love among Christians.

I don’t see him saying that here as well.

Please explain how you think he is saying that the church is invisible.
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Augustine talks of the about the two-fold division of the Church in that there are members of the Church who are not really members of the Body of Christ. There are people who seem to be in the Church but are not really. Can you point out to me anyone that you know for certain will be with Christ for eternity? If not how can you see the true body in what Augustine calls the “mixed Church”? He indicates that Scripture often speaks of what seems to be the same body of people when it is really talking about 2 different bodies of people.
 
SyCarl said:
Augustine talks of the about the two-fold division of the Church in that there are members of the Church who are not really members of the Body of Christ. There are people who seem to be in the Church but are not really. Can you point out to me anyone that you know for certain will be with Christ for eternity? If not how can you see the true body in what Augustine calls the “mixed Church”? He indicates that Scripture often speaks of what seems to be the same body of people when it is really talking about 2 different bodies of people.
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Isn’t Augustine speaking of the wheat and the tares analogy?
I read that here in another thread.
He is speaking of division within the Chruch not division of the Church. IOW, there will be some who will cry Lord Lord, but…

Thats going to happen everywhere.

But, that is not at all a declaration that there is not a visible Church from the beginning to the end.
 
notsmart said:
Isn’t Augustine speaking of the wheat and the tares analogy?
I read that here in another thread.
He is speaking of division within the Chruch not division of the Church. IOW, there will be some who will cry Lord Lord, but…

Thats going to happen everywhere.

But, that is not at all a declaration that there is not a visible Church from the beginning to the end.
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No, but he does distinguish between those who are members of the visible Church and those who are true members of Christ’s body. Protestants agree that there are visible churches which are the various organized Christian communities. The visible Church has its functions. However the invisible Church is that subset in the visible churches that actually belong to the body of Christ and will be with Him in Heaven. As no one can judge another, it is impossible to say who actually is part of the true body,
 
SyCarl said:
No, but he does distinguish between those who are members of the visible Church and those who are true members of Christ’s body. Protestants agree that there are visible churches which are the various organized Christian communities. The visible Church has its functions. However the invisible Church is that subset in the visible churches that actually belong to the body of Christ and will be with Him in Heaven. As no one can judge another, it is impossible to say who actually is part of the true body,
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I would agree that there are people who belong to the body of Christ that did not get a chance to know of him or church in any manner you look at that word. 👍
 
The Church is Body and Spirit just like we are. In it’s essence it is Christ’s Body.

Colossians 1:18 And [Christ] is the head of the body, the church

Ephesians 1:22-23 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.Mystically, the Church is Christ Himself, who actualized natural and supernatural dimensions, visible and invisible. So too must the Church since it contains the “fullness of Him.” People like Calvin misunderstood the nature of the Incarnation by rendering the Church spiritual only.

Pope Pius XII wrote about the Mystical Body of Christ eloquently in 1943. The first 10-20 paragraphs touch on this quite a bit.
 
notsmart said:
Isn’t Augustine speaking of the wheat and the tares analogy?
I read that here in another thread.
He is speaking of division within the Chruch not division of the Church. IOW, there will be some who will cry Lord Lord, but…

Thats going to happen everywhere.

But, that is not at all a declaration that there is not a visible Church from the beginning to the end.
Click to expand...
The point is not that there are two churches. That is not what invisible/visible means. It means the Church is all those who have faith in Christ, since faith cannot be seen, it is called invisible. The invisible Church gathers around word and sacrament. That is a visible representation of the body of Christ. But not everyone at such a gathering is a member of the body of Christ since they may be unbelievers.
 
Ok. How will this scripture be fulfilled if the church is invisible.

“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.” (Matthew 18:15-17)

Consider this. Suppose a woman and her husband disagree on the issue of contraception. Now, suppose the husband secretly contracepted while having intercourse with her and she came to know about it later. So, she thinks, “He has sinned against me.” But the husband thinks he has committed no sin. She asks some people to show him his fault, but he brings his own people who say he’s not wrong. So she tells it to the church. Now, in the church itself, there is division. Some people say that contraception is ok, others say it is a sin.

So how will Matthew 18:15-17 be fulfilled? You said, “we don’t know whom among the “church” belong to the true body of Christ”. If that were the case, the husband would say that those who said contraception is sinful do not belong to the true body of Christ and the wife would say otherwise.
 
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