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Jerusha
Guest
See my sig line, for one.
- Status
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zerinus
Guest
If such intermarriages took place, it would have been after the Book of Mormon period had ended. The Book of Mormon covers a period of history approximately from 600 BC to 400 AD. It does not give us any information beyond that date. We don’t know anything about the history of the Book of Mormon people from AD 400 until the discovery of America by the Europeans. If such intermarriages took place, it would have been during that period; but no one can say for certain that it has. The only way we could know for certain would be by a revelation form the Lord. As far as I know such revelation has not been given to the Church (or if it has, it has not been made public).
zerinus
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Catholic20064
Guest
Seems like you’re one of the few Mormons I’ve seen who understands that intermarriage with descendants of Asians during the Book of Mormon period can’t be defended from the Book of Mormon itself. Great answer.
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dianaiad
Guest
Patience, grasshopper. Wait for the whole paper.
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why_me
Guest
It might have. Unfortunately, the book of mormon is an abridgement. It was much longer but it was abridged by the prophet Mormon. He only included what he considered important.
1 And now I, Mormon, being about to deliver up the record which I have been making into the hands of my son Moroni, behold I have witnessed almost all the destruction of my people, the Nephites.
2 And it is many hundred years after the coming of Christ *that I deliver these records into the hands of my son; and it supposeth me that he will witness the entire destruction of my people. But may God grant that he may survive them, that he may write somewhat concerning them, and somewhat concerning Christ, that perhaps some day it may profit them.
3 And now, I speak somewhat concerning that which I have written; for after I had made an abridgment from the plates of Nephi, down to the reign of this king Benjamin, of whom Amaleki spake, I searched among the records which had been delivered into my hands, and I found these plates, which contained this small account of the prophets, from Jacob down to the reign of this king Benjamin, and also many of the words of Nephi.
4 And the things which are upon these plates pleasing me, because of the prophecies of the coming of Christ; and my fathers knowing that many of them have been fulfilled; yea, and I also know that as many things as have been bprophesied concerning us down to this day have been fulfilled, and as many as go beyond this day must surely come to pass—
5 Wherefore, I chose these things, to finish my record upon them, which remainder of my record I shall take from the plates of Nephi; and I cannot write the hundredth part of the things of my people. 6 But behold, I shall take these plates, which contain these prophesyings and revelations, and put them with the remainder of my record, for they are choice unto me; and I know they will be choice unto my brethren.
7 And I do this for a wise bpurpose; for thus it whispereth me, according to the workings of the Spirit of the Lord which is in me. And now, I do not know all things; but the Lord knoweth all things which are to come; wherefore, he worketh in me to do according to his will.
8 And my prayer to God is concerning my brethren, that they may once again come to the knowledge of God, yea, the redemption of Christ; that they may once again be a delightsome people.
9 And now I, Mormon, *proceed to finish out my record, which I take from the plates of Nephi; and I make it according to the knowledge and the understanding which God has given me.
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why_me
Guest
We know very little because there was much that Mormon left out when he abriged the book of mormon. Much history or customs would not have seen the light of day as the book was cut down to a more manageable size.
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Jerusha
Guest
'Tis mighty peculiar that an abrigement is so much longer than plain and simple English:
1830 edition
And now I, Mormon, make a record of the things which I have both seen and heard, and call it the Book of Mormon. --And about the time that Ammaron hid up the records unto the Lord, he came unto me, (I being about ten years of age; and I began to be learned somewhat after the manner of the learning of my people, ) And Ammaron saith unto me, I perceive that thou art a sober child, and art quick to observe; therefore when ye are about twenty and four years old, I would that ye should remember the things that ye have observed concerning this people; and when ye are of that age, go to the land of Antum, unto a hill, which is called Shim; and there have I deposited unto the Lord, all the sacred engravings concerning this people. And behold, ye shall take the plates of Nephi unto yourself, and the remainder shall ye leave in the place where they are; and ye shall engrave upon the plates of Nephi, all the things which ye have observed concerning this people. And I, Mormon, being a descendant of Nephi, (and my father’s name was Mormon,)
I remembered the things which Ammaron commanded me. And it came to pass that I being eleven years old, was carried by my father into the land southward, even to the land of Zarahemla: the whole face of the land having become covered with buildings, and the people were as numerous almost, as it were the sand of the sea. And it came to pass in this year there began to be a war between the Nephites, which consisted of the Nephites, and the Jacobites, and the Josephites, and the Zoramites: and this war was between the Nephites and the Lamanites, and the Lamanites and the Lemuelites, and the Ishmaelites. Now the Lamanites, and the Lemuelites, and the Ishmaelites, were called Lamanites, and the two parties were Nephites and Lamanites. And it came to pass that the war began to be among them, in the borders of Zarahemla, by the waters of Sidon. And it came to pass that the Nephites had gathered together a great number of men, even to exceed the number of thirty thousand. And it came to pass that they did have in this same year a number of battles, in the which the Nephites did beat the Lamanites, and did slay many of them. And it came to pass that the Lamanites withdrew their design, and there was peace settled in the land, and peace did remain for the space of about four years, that there were no blood shed. But wickedness did prevail upon the face of the whole land, insomuch that the Lord did take away his beloved disciples, and the work of miracles and of healing did cease, because of the iniquity of the people. And there were no gifts from the Lord, and the Holy Ghost did not come upon any, because of their wickedness and unbelief.
Plain and simple
I, Mormon, call this record the Book of Mormon. When Ammaron hid the records, he came to me when I was ten years old. Ammaron said, “I see that you are a sober and observant child. When you are about twenty-four years old, I want you to remember what I tell you. I left all the sacred engravings about this people at Shim Hill in Antumland. Go there. Take the plates of Nephi. I want you to leave the rest there. You will engrave on the plates of Nephi all the things that you have observed about this people.”
I remembered what Ammaron told me to do. When I was eleven years old, my father took me into the land southward, to Zarahemlaland, which was heavily populated. In that year, there was a war between the Nephites and their allies and the Lamanites and their allies. The war began in the borders of Zarahemla, by the Sidon River. The Nephites gathered an army of more than thirty thousand men. It that year there were some battles. The Nephites killed many Lamanites. The war ended, and peace settled in the land. There was peace for about four years. The people were very sinful. The Lord removed his beloved disciples. Miracles and healing stopped because of the sinful state of the people. There were no gifts from the Lord. The Holy Ghost did not come on any, because of their wickedness and unbelief.
1830 edition
And now I, Mormon, make a record of the things which I have both seen and heard, and call it the Book of Mormon. --And about the time that Ammaron hid up the records unto the Lord, he came unto me, (I being about ten years of age; and I began to be learned somewhat after the manner of the learning of my people, ) And Ammaron saith unto me, I perceive that thou art a sober child, and art quick to observe; therefore when ye are about twenty and four years old, I would that ye should remember the things that ye have observed concerning this people; and when ye are of that age, go to the land of Antum, unto a hill, which is called Shim; and there have I deposited unto the Lord, all the sacred engravings concerning this people. And behold, ye shall take the plates of Nephi unto yourself, and the remainder shall ye leave in the place where they are; and ye shall engrave upon the plates of Nephi, all the things which ye have observed concerning this people. And I, Mormon, being a descendant of Nephi, (and my father’s name was Mormon,)
I remembered the things which Ammaron commanded me. And it came to pass that I being eleven years old, was carried by my father into the land southward, even to the land of Zarahemla: the whole face of the land having become covered with buildings, and the people were as numerous almost, as it were the sand of the sea. And it came to pass in this year there began to be a war between the Nephites, which consisted of the Nephites, and the Jacobites, and the Josephites, and the Zoramites: and this war was between the Nephites and the Lamanites, and the Lamanites and the Lemuelites, and the Ishmaelites. Now the Lamanites, and the Lemuelites, and the Ishmaelites, were called Lamanites, and the two parties were Nephites and Lamanites. And it came to pass that the war began to be among them, in the borders of Zarahemla, by the waters of Sidon. And it came to pass that the Nephites had gathered together a great number of men, even to exceed the number of thirty thousand. And it came to pass that they did have in this same year a number of battles, in the which the Nephites did beat the Lamanites, and did slay many of them. And it came to pass that the Lamanites withdrew their design, and there was peace settled in the land, and peace did remain for the space of about four years, that there were no blood shed. But wickedness did prevail upon the face of the whole land, insomuch that the Lord did take away his beloved disciples, and the work of miracles and of healing did cease, because of the iniquity of the people. And there were no gifts from the Lord, and the Holy Ghost did not come upon any, because of their wickedness and unbelief.
Plain and simple
I, Mormon, call this record the Book of Mormon. When Ammaron hid the records, he came to me when I was ten years old. Ammaron said, “I see that you are a sober and observant child. When you are about twenty-four years old, I want you to remember what I tell you. I left all the sacred engravings about this people at Shim Hill in Antumland. Go there. Take the plates of Nephi. I want you to leave the rest there. You will engrave on the plates of Nephi all the things that you have observed about this people.”
I remembered what Ammaron told me to do. When I was eleven years old, my father took me into the land southward, to Zarahemlaland, which was heavily populated. In that year, there was a war between the Nephites and their allies and the Lamanites and their allies. The war began in the borders of Zarahemla, by the Sidon River. The Nephites gathered an army of more than thirty thousand men. It that year there were some battles. The Nephites killed many Lamanites. The war ended, and peace settled in the land. There was peace for about four years. The people were very sinful. The Lord removed his beloved disciples. Miracles and healing stopped because of the sinful state of the people. There were no gifts from the Lord. The Holy Ghost did not come on any, because of their wickedness and unbelief.
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zerinus
Guest
Firstly, we know what we know about the Book of Mormon. We don’t know what the Book doesn’t tell us. The Book of Mormon doesn’t mention Morlocks either. That does not mean that there were therefore Morlocks in the Book of Mormon, but it wasn’t mentioned because it is just an abridgement. We know only what the book tells us, not what it doesn’t tell us. Secondly, if the Book of Mormon people had come into contact with colonies of other races beside themselves, it would have been of sufficient importance to have been mentioned in the book, abridgement though it is. The fact that no such thing is mentioned is strong evidence that it didn’t happen. And thirdly, the tenor of the whole of the Book of Mormon speaks against such an idea. It is true that the Book of Mormon prophecies of the migration of other nations to the Americas at some future date; but it also says that for the duration of the time that the people of Israelite descent (i.e. the descendents of Lehi and people of Mulek) lived on and prospered in the land with the true gospel existing among them, that such migrations would not take place:
2 Nephi 1:
8 And behold, it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance.
9 Wherefore, I, Lehi, have obtained a promise, that inasmuch as those whom the Lord God shall bring out of the land of Jerusalem shall keep his commandments, they shall prosper upon the face of this land; and they shall be kept from all other nations, that they may possess this land unto themselves. And if it so be that they shall keep his commandments they shall be blessed upon the face of this land, and there shall be none to molest them, nor to take away the land of their inheritance; and they shall dwell safely forever.
10 But behold, when the time cometh that they shall dwindle in unbelief, after they have received so great blessings from the hand of the Lord—having a knowledge of the creation of the earth, and all men, knowing the great and marvelous works of the Lord from the creation of the world; having power given them to do all things by faith; having all the commandments from the beginning, and having been brought by his infinite goodness into this precious land of promise—behold, I say, if the day shall come that they will reject the Holy One of Israel, the true Messiah, their Redeemer and their God, behold, the judgments of him that is just shall rest upon them.
11 Yea, he will bring other nations unto them, and he will give unto them power, and he will take away from them the lands of their possessions, and he will cause them to be scattered and smitten.
Those verses (in the same chapter) that talk about other nations coming to the land relate to a time after these prophecies had been fulfilled—i.e. after the Nephites and Lamanites had rejected the gospel, and the Nephites had been destroyed. It in fact refers to the migrations of the Europeans after the discovery of Ameria by Columbus, and establishment of the Gentile nations of today on the American continent. It does not refer to any migration of Asiatic tribes to the continent—especially in the Book of Mormon times.
Further more, I am very skeptical of the “limited geography” theory. Although it is true that for much of the Book of Mormon the distances it talks about are very small compared to the size of the whole of the American continent; in some parts of the book (especially towards the end) it does mention larger distances. Here is a typical example:
Helaman 3:
3 And it came to pass in the forty and sixth, yea, there was much contention and many dissensions; in the which there were an exceedingly great many who departed out of the land of Zarahemla, and went forth unto the land northward to inherit the land.
4 And they did travel to an exceedingly great distance, insomuch that they came to large bodies of water and many rivers.
5 Yea, and even they did spread forth into all parts of the land, into whatever parts it had not been rendered desolate and without timber, because of the many inhabitants who had before inherited the land.
We know that Moroni buried the plates of the Book of Mormon in a hill in North America in a place where Joseph Smith found it, so the Nephites and Lamanites must have at least travelled that far—which goes against the “limited geography” theory. And if they had come across other colonies of immigrants to America at that time, it would have been of sufficient importance to be mentioned in the Book of Mormon.
zerinus
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MelanieAnne
Guest
This story about intermarriage is actually irrelevant. I don’t say that to be dismissive or unkind, merely that intermarriage with other groups OR NOT would produce the same scientific evidence for a Hebrew migration several centuries BC - ZERO. Whether or not the alleged Hebrew migrants intermarried would not affect whether their genes were passed down from generation to generation to the present day. The science is irrefutable ~ there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that there was any Hebrew migration to the Americas at that time period ~ regardless of their marriage habits.
The real issue is whether or not there is a shred of evidence to authenticate the Book of Mormon story. In fact, there is NONE. Beyond the numerous flaws (often listed on this forum in one thread or another) there is absolutely no DNA evidence whatsoever that the Book of Mormon is anything beyond, as our dear Jerusha puts it, “a religious novel”. Mitochondrial DNA mapping is likely something Joseph Smith hadn’t counted on when circulating the Book of Mormon as “scripture”. That isn’t the first problem he obviously didn’t consider, and it may not be the last. The evidence, however, is quite clear that, for a variety of reasons, the Book of Mormon is not revealed scripture, it is merely a work of fiction, not something one should trust with one’s immortal soul.
That doesn’t mean that Mormons are not good, moral people because most of them are. But this “scripture” that Mormons rely on is a hoax, plain and simple. Simple objective reasoning is all that is needed to arrive at this conclusion. Whether or not Mormons are, (at least mostly
) good, moral people does not make either their faith, or their Book of Mormon “scripture”, “True”, as they often claim.One could easily make a reasonable case that Mormonism is an effective distraction from the true faith established by Jesus Christ. And who would stand to gain from such a distraction? There’s a reason that St. Paul warned against the preaching of “another Gospel” and that such “Gospel” would be damned.
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PaulDupre
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Finrock
Guest
Good day MelanieAnne! I’m so very glad to meet you, even if it’s online only. I hope you are doing well today. I’m Finrock and am new to this forum. I just wanted to share with you my faith. I do understand your point-of-view and I respect your beliefs. I have no desire to contend with you about evidences for the Book of Mormon. Not because I don’t think it would be an interesting conversation, but I honestly feel we have a better way of knowing what is truth and what is not truth. Anyways, my only desire is that this post will be at least a tiny bit edifying and helpful in understand the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
I personally love the Book of Mormon. Every time that I read from it (except those times when I am just kinda skimming and not reading), I am drawn closer to my Savior Jesus Christ. Through-out my life, I have learned how to become a better disciple of Jesus Christ because of the things that I have read in the Book of Mormon.
Some wonderful doctrine can also be found in the Book of Mormon. For instance, I would like you to find the most obvious scripture in the Bible that tells us Jesus Christ is God. Then, I would like for you to consider this scripture from the Book of Mormon:
3 Nephi “18 And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.”
Morm. 3 “21 And also that ye may believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, which ye shall have among you; and also that the Jews, the covenant people of the Lord, shall have other witness besides him whom they saw and heard, that Jesus, whom they slew, was the every Christ and the very God.”
3 Nephi 5:20 “I have reason to bless my God and my Savior Jesus Christ, that he brought our fathers out of the land of Jerusalem…”
2 Nephi 26 “12 And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God”
And these are only a few examples. I quoted these scriptures only to illustrate how the Book of Mormon strengthens and confirms the Holy Bible. These scriptures make it abundantly clear the Jesus Christ is God. They leave no room for misinterpretation. There are many other examples like this in the Book of Mormon where something that is taught in the Bible vaguely, is borne out in greater detail in the Book of Mormon. It is, as the title indicates, another testament of Jesus Christ.
All in all, my faith in God the Father has increased as I’ve read the Book of Mormon. My faith in Jesus Christ has increased as I’ve read the Book of Mormon. My understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ has grown as I’ve read the Book of Mormon. My understanding of the Bible has increased as I’ve read the Book of Mormon. My desire to do good, to be kind, gentle, meek, humble, and to follow Jesus with all that I am, has increased from reading the Book of Mormon. My life experiences with the Book of Mormon have shown me that it is much more than just a “religious novel”. Couple my life experiences with a witness from the Holy Spirit, I have no doubt that the book is truly from God. It has been a wellspring of life giving water that has lead me to worship and love Jesus and his gospel.
Kind Regards,
Finrock
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Jerusha
Guest
And for every positive quotation and story you pull out of the BOM, I can pull out at least three negative ones. While you all believe that the Holy Spirit speaks to you in the BOM (and D&C), some people live by the negative ones. How do you explain that?
Perhaps you need a “Guide to understanding the BOM”, given it is written so badly.
You need to reform yourselves before you go criticizing and prostelytizing to others. You have become like the Nephites who allowed the Gadinaton robbers to become as one with them.
:takethat:
Perhaps you need a “Guide to understanding the BOM”, given it is written so badly.
You need to reform yourselves before you go criticizing and prostelytizing to others. You have become like the Nephites who allowed the Gadinaton robbers to become as one with them.
:takethat:
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Finrock
Guest
Good evening Jerusha! How are you today? I hope you are doing well!And for every positive quotation and story you pull out of the BOM, I can pull out at least three negative ones. While you all believe that the Holy Spirit speaks to you in the BOM (and D&C), some people live by the negative ones. How do you explain that?
Perhaps you need a “Guide to understanding the BOM”, given it is written so badly.
You need to reform yourselves before you go criticizing and prostelytizing to others. You have become like the Nephites who allowed the Gadinaton robbers to become as one with them.
:takethat:
I wasn’t sure and so I wanted to make sure, but was your post intended as a comment with a question to my post, or are you just making a general observation and asking a rhetorical question?
Kind Regards,
Finrock
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Jerusha
Guest
Yep!! In a better mood today. Worked out some of the stuff in my dreams last night.general observation and asking a rhetorical question
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MelanieAnne
Guest
Hi Finrock,
That’s great for you that a work of religious fiction can be spiritually uplifting. I say that with all sincerity. There are many works of fiction that are uplifting in some way or another. The fact that something moves you spiritually does not convert fiction into Truth. The fact that someone might be emotionally invested in wanting something to be true does not make it so.
For me, the hoax that has been perpetrated by Joseph Smith and his cohorts in creating the Book of Mormon story negates any spiritually uplifting aspects that might be found there. I am interested in objective truth. There is not a shred of evidence to support the Book of Mormon story, while the evidence that it is a 19th Century work of fiction is substantial and continues to mount.
But if it works for you, that’s great. You’re just never going to convince me that it is anything more than fiction. And I hope, for the sake of your immortal soul, that the story about receiving the Golden Plates from an angel is just as fictional as the rest of the Book of Mormon.
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Finrock
Guest
Good afternoon MelanieAnn. I hope you are doing fantastic today! Thank you so much for taking the time to read my post and respond to it.
I just wanted to clarify that for me the Book of Mormon is more than just spiritually uplifting. It is, in a very real way, leading me to Jesus Christ and has helped me to know Him better, to love Him more, and to dedicate my life to following Him. It has been a great blessing in my life.
You make some very good points. It is very true that because something might move you spiritually, doesn’t make it true. I’ve known people who’ve fallen in to that mistake. I like to call it the Oprah phenomenon (ask me if you want more details on this point). Also, you are right, being emotionally invested in something being true doesn’t necessarily make something true. I, personally, would never subscribe to such a thing, but I’m glad you pointed that out because there certainly are people who do subscribe to that way of thinking. And, again you are right, fiction isn’t truth and no matter how it might move someone, doesn’t make it any less fiction. On the flip side, truth is truth, regardless of how we’ve obtained it. For instance, if the principle that Jesus is God is true, then it is true whether I learn it from the Bible or from a weekly Newspaper. I, personally, never reject truth (just like your statements have been true and I accept them because they are truth), regardless of where I learned it. Whether from a televangalist, a Catholic in a chat forum, or ancient writings of the Hindu spiritual leaders, if it is true, then it is true no matter whose mouth proclaimed it.
I would never, ever, dream of hoping to convince you or anyone that the Book of Mormon is true. It simply isn’t within my power to do that. And, plus, I’m very poor at convincing people. As a matter of fact, I’m probably the worst there is. I’m very glad that the onus isn’t on me, else I would be damned for sure. However, I do believe that the Holy Ghost can convince you or anyone. It is how I know the book is true. No flesh and blood convinced me, but my Father who is in heaven convinced me that it is true, and I believe Him.
Be well, MelanieAnn!
Kind Regards,
Finrock
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zerinus
Guest
Hi Finrock, thank you for your contributions. I have found your posts to be inspiring and educational. Just out of interest, what is your opinion of the “limited geography” theory of the Book of Mormon? Do you agree with it, disagree, or neither agree nor disagree? If so, what are your reasons?Good afternoon MelanieAnn. I hope you are doing fantastic today! Thank you so much for taking the time to read my post and respond to it.
I just wanted to clarify that for me the Book of Mormon is more than just spiritually uplifting. It is, in a very real way, leading me to Jesus Christ and has helped me to know Him better, to love Him more, and to dedicate my life to following Him. It has been a great blessing in my life.
You make some very good points. It is very true that because something might move you spiritually, doesn’t make it true. I’ve known people who’ve fallen in to that mistake. I like to call it the Oprah phenomenon (ask me if you want more details on this point). Also, you are right, being emotionally invested in something being true doesn’t necessarily make something true. I, personally, would never subscribe to such a thing, but I’m glad you pointed that out because there certainly are people who do subscribe to that way of thinking. And, again you are right, fiction isn’t truth and no matter how it might move someone, doesn’t make it any less fiction. On the flip side, truth is truth, regardless of how we’ve obtained it. For instance, if the principle that Jesus is God is true, then it is true whether I learn it from the Bible or from a weekly Newspaper. I, personally, never reject truth (just like your statements have been true and I accept them because they are truth), regardless of where I learned it. Whether from a televangalist, a Catholic in a chat forum, or ancient writings of the Hindu spiritual leaders, if it is true, then it is true no matter whose mouth proclaimed it.
I would never, ever, dream of hoping to convince you or anyone that the Book of Mormon is true. It simply isn’t within my power to do that. And, plus, I’m very poor at convincing people. As a matter of fact, I’m probably the worst there is. I’m very glad that the onus isn’t on me, else I would be damned for sure. However, I do believe that the Holy Ghost can convince you or anyone. It is how I know the book is true. No flesh and blood convinced me, but my Father who is in heaven convinced me that it is true, and I believe Him.
Be well, MelanieAnn!
Kind Regards,
Finrock
zerinus
F
Finrock
Guest
Greetings zerinus. You’re welcome and thank you for the complement.
Right now I’m convinced of some form of limited geography theory. I agree that Lehi’s group landed somewhere is Mesoamerica and they interacted with an already existing population within a limited geographic area. To me, it just seems more plausible than the idea of the more traditional global geography. I’m not extremely versed in the matter, but with the understanding I do have, I primarily subscribe to the LGT because it seems the LGT is a better fit for the advanced civilizations discussed in the Book of Mormon. I also agree that the LGT better agrees with distances traveled in the Book of Mormon.
Having said that, I’m not absolutely married to one theory or another. I’m sure you were probably looking for more substance than what I’ve provided, if so, I do apologize. Right now it’s fairly late for me and honestly I’m struggling to write this, but perhaps when I have more time I can get in to more detail.
Kind Regards,
Finrock
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