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Geo17
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Sorry I was gone so long. Since purgatory can be a state of being, I think I’m in it. Because for the past 12 years it’s like I can’t get away with even the smallest sin. And since my age makes me closer to death, than a younger person, I’m most concerned with obeying God. It’s always on my mind.
To Meltzerboy: Two years ago I was having some phone conversations with a Jewish woman from Canada. I asked her what Jews believe happens after death? She didn’t know. But her son had a friend who attended the Yeshiva school in NYC. She told me he was taught Jews believe in reincarnation after death, and always have. They don’t call it reincarnation, one term is Transmigration of the soul. This was news to me. The odd thing is I think I believe that used to happen, and maybe still does.
Here is what I think, and I am not sure about it. I’m just throwing it out there for discussion. Before Jesus came here and died for us, I think all souls reincarnated based on what they did in life. But you can never get to Heaven that way. So 2000 years ago, Jesus died for us and made it possible to get to Heaven through Him. In fact Jesus is the only way to get to Heaven. I think today, people who live and die, and never had a real chance to know and accept Jesus may still reincarnate unless they are so evil they are beyond redemption. But everyone who knows and accepts Jesus, either goes straight to Heaven, or after some time in a purgatory, then goes to Heaven. Unless the age of Mankind ends first. If that happens the final judgement in made, and those who love God and His ways get to Heaven, and those who love sin, go to hell.
I just want to say something, and I’m not bragging. I’m just telling you something about me. I think I have almost always loved the ways of God, even before I consciously knew what they were. Even when I was 27 I was promoted to manager on my job, and many people were older than me with more seniority in the co. I didn’t feel I had a right to be manager, so I asked my boss, why me? My boss was a man of about 48. He said to me, because I have a very exceptional sense of fair play, and what’s right and wrong. I never forgot that, and that was before I read the Bible and knew what God calls Rules for Holy Living. And things like that happened all my life, and still do. I love the ways of God. When I read Proverbs, I find I’m always in agreement with God. There are times I fail to do what’s right, but I try. One example happened 2 days ago. I was in a store buying some items of different prices, and the clerk cheated me with the tax. I didn’t have a calculator so I couldn’t prove I was right. I became very angry, and I just left. Once in my car I knew my anger was sin, so I spent the rest of the night pushing the anger away. That man obviously doesn’t care about what’s right or wrong. I didn’t want my anger coming between me and God. I concluded that if I go in that store again, I need a calculator with me, because that wasn’t the 1st time. What they’re doing is what God calls using dishonest scales. My only problem is am I supposed to say “forgive him because he knows no better”. Or just forgive him because I ask God to forgive me? I suppose the latter.
I went off topic again. But it’s ok because you all answered the original question.
Do any of you know of Father Benedict who is on the Telecare channel? I only heard him speak twice, but I find his messages talk to me.
To Meltzerboy: Two years ago I was having some phone conversations with a Jewish woman from Canada. I asked her what Jews believe happens after death? She didn’t know. But her son had a friend who attended the Yeshiva school in NYC. She told me he was taught Jews believe in reincarnation after death, and always have. They don’t call it reincarnation, one term is Transmigration of the soul. This was news to me. The odd thing is I think I believe that used to happen, and maybe still does.
Here is what I think, and I am not sure about it. I’m just throwing it out there for discussion. Before Jesus came here and died for us, I think all souls reincarnated based on what they did in life. But you can never get to Heaven that way. So 2000 years ago, Jesus died for us and made it possible to get to Heaven through Him. In fact Jesus is the only way to get to Heaven. I think today, people who live and die, and never had a real chance to know and accept Jesus may still reincarnate unless they are so evil they are beyond redemption. But everyone who knows and accepts Jesus, either goes straight to Heaven, or after some time in a purgatory, then goes to Heaven. Unless the age of Mankind ends first. If that happens the final judgement in made, and those who love God and His ways get to Heaven, and those who love sin, go to hell.
I just want to say something, and I’m not bragging. I’m just telling you something about me. I think I have almost always loved the ways of God, even before I consciously knew what they were. Even when I was 27 I was promoted to manager on my job, and many people were older than me with more seniority in the co. I didn’t feel I had a right to be manager, so I asked my boss, why me? My boss was a man of about 48. He said to me, because I have a very exceptional sense of fair play, and what’s right and wrong. I never forgot that, and that was before I read the Bible and knew what God calls Rules for Holy Living. And things like that happened all my life, and still do. I love the ways of God. When I read Proverbs, I find I’m always in agreement with God. There are times I fail to do what’s right, but I try. One example happened 2 days ago. I was in a store buying some items of different prices, and the clerk cheated me with the tax. I didn’t have a calculator so I couldn’t prove I was right. I became very angry, and I just left. Once in my car I knew my anger was sin, so I spent the rest of the night pushing the anger away. That man obviously doesn’t care about what’s right or wrong. I didn’t want my anger coming between me and God. I concluded that if I go in that store again, I need a calculator with me, because that wasn’t the 1st time. What they’re doing is what God calls using dishonest scales. My only problem is am I supposed to say “forgive him because he knows no better”. Or just forgive him because I ask God to forgive me? I suppose the latter.
I went off topic again. But it’s ok because you all answered the original question.
Do any of you know of Father Benedict who is on the Telecare channel? I only heard him speak twice, but I find his messages talk to me.
I
Ismael
Guest
Jews believe in reincarnation? I do not thing so.
Or do you mean even Jews believe in some sort of dealing of people who were not perfectly good?
As R_C has already showed the concept of Purgatory comes from many passages in the Bible.
The point is: only what is perfectly pure can go into heaven. Most of us are often stained by sin, even if forgiven by God, an still often have earthly attachments.
Still we desire God and want to be with him and try to live a good life. We do not deserve Hell. Yet we cannot go into Heaven as we are. So God PURIFIES US. ‘Purgatory’ means literally ‘place of purification/purging’, from Latin ‘purgare’ (to purge).
Whether it is a place or just a process, whether is lasts for a certain time or it is instantaneous, it’s still debated.
The Church teaches there is such thing as purgatory, and if we are not perfectly pure we must go through it. The details are not part of the ‘dogma’, however.
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I think this is a very radical position for a Jew. It’s like a Christian believing in reicarnation, essentially, not part of the orthodox faith.
If you read the Jewish Encyclopedia on the subjects:
jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/14479-transmigration-of-souls
it becomes clear that Judaism does NOT believe in ‘Transmigration of the soul’ and reincarnation, except, perhaps, a few people who are not orthodox.
I think that would be news to most Jews as well!
This is not what the bible or Jesus taught however, but also a very uncommon position.
Jesus talks several times about Hell and he does not speak of it as a ‘repeat on Earth’…
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MJCamp
Guest
The Catholic Church also treats a mortal sin as total rejection of God. Therefore one must confess this sin in order to make Heaven a possibility
M
Michael57
Guest
Geo17 - Have you considered attending RCIA at your nearest parish? There is no obligation and it is free.…so I don’t have money to buy any books. I just have to make do with what I already have, and what I can get off the Internet. Now about the Catholic Catechism, about 7 years ago someone gave me a CD and he said it’s the Catholic Catechism…
…If purgatory is a state of being, maybe I’m already in purgatory?
Which is actually another reason I’m looking at Catholicism again.
So to recap, if purgatory is a state of being, is it possible what has happened in the last 12 years is purgatory?
I know this was very long. Thank you to anyone who read it.
When I went through it, I was given a copy of the CCC, along with the course materials The classes covered a lot of the doctrines that you are asking about here. It might help you out quite a bit on Catholic Doctrine and Tradition.
As far as Purgatory on Earth goes, my limited understanding is that there is a penalty associated with sin, and on Earth the remission of sins after baptism is done by the Rite of Reconciliation (Confession), along with doing the works that remit the punishment through either a Plenary or Partial indulgence.
Your suffering may or may not be due to your sins in life, they could simply be misfortune, but the way you handle your suffering is, I think, important to God. It may be what was needed or was the vehicle that brought you here and now.
Those things that happened to you have somehow worked to bring you here at this point in your life.
As for me, I also was in that Born Again movement for a time…I got tired of the “worship” that was focused on the preacher’s preaching and teaching, and not focused on God, at least to my way of thinking. When I started looking into what real worship was, I found the Mass. So that is where I worship now in full communion with the Catholic Church.
Not that there weren’t people worshiping God in the Born Again/Evangelical Churches - that’s not what I am saying at all, I am simply saying that being a part of the Catholic Church feels to me like coming Home. And I am still learning my faith, thanks be to God!
God bless you in your search I hope you find the answers you need.
meltzerboy
New member
To the contrary, as I stated in post #9, reincarnation IS part of the orthodox branch of the faith (rather than the less orthodox movements in Judaism). That is not to say that most Orthodox Jews believe in or are required to believe in reincarnation, but the belief is voiced by some Jews within that movement. However, it is NOT a purgatorial reincarnation in order to achieve a higher plane of existence as is the case in Hinduism. Rather, reincarnation is focused mainly on Torah study which had not been completed in the previous life. In Judaism, since the afterlife is not explicitly delineated in Torah, one can entertain various beliefs regarding the specifics before crossing the line to heresy.Jews believe in reincarnation? I do not thing so.
Or do you mean even Jews believe in some sort of dealing of people who were not perfectly good?
As R_C has already showed the concept of Purgatory comes from many passages in the Bible.
The point is: only what is perfectly pure can go into heaven. Most of us are often stained by sin, even if forgiven by God, an still often have earthly attachments.
Still we desire God and want to be with him and try to live a good life. We do not deserve Hell. Yet we cannot go into Heaven as we are. So God PURIFIES US. ‘Purgatory’ means literally ‘place of purification/purging’, from Latin ‘purgare’ (to purge).
Whether it is a place or just a process, whether is lasts for a certain time or it is instantaneous, it’s still debated.
The Church teaches there is such thing as purgatory, and if we are not perfectly pure we must go through it. The details are not part of the ‘dogma’, however.
–
I think this is a very radical position for a Jew. It’s like a Christian believing in reicarnation, essentially, not part of the orthodox faith.
If you read the Jewish Encyclopedia on the subjects:
jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/14479-transmigration-of-souls
it becomes clear that Judaism does NOT believe in ‘Transmigration of the soul’ and reincarnation, except, perhaps, a few people who are not orthodox.
I think that would be news to most Jews as well!
This is not what the bible or Jesus taught however, but also a very uncommon position.
Jesus talks several times about Hell and he does not speak of it as a ‘repeat on Earth’…
G
Geo17
Guest
The Jewish woman I was speaking to really didn’t seem to know anything about Judaism, and that was why she asked her son’s friend, who went to the well known Yeshiva school in NYC. She also told me Jews don’t believe angels are real, because there is no mention of angels in the OT. I knew that was wrong, but I had to think about it. I think possibly the first mention of angels is in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. I then pointed out that in Daniel, while he’s waiting for an answer from God to his prayers, an angel shows up to give him the answer. And there are so many more instances of angels in the OT, that I don’t recall them off the top of my head. We no longer speak, as she found someone closer to hang out with.
But I did a little research on the Net, and I read it was mostly the Jewish mystics who believed in transmigration of souls. The reason this interested me is because in John’s Gospel, as Jesus and his disciples walk into a city, there’s a man begging who was born blind. One disciple asked Jesus, who sinned that this man was born blind, him or his parents? Jesus side steps the question by saying no one sinned. This man was born blind so the works of God may be made manifest through him. Many years ago a relative quoted this to me to prove the ancient Jews believed in reincarnation. Well, yes and no, and not in the way the Hindus believe it.
At any rate, I didn’t mean this thread to be about reincarnation, but purgatory. I’m unusual man because even 30 years ago, most folks joined a Born Again church, and then maybe read the Bible. But I read the Bible first. I only sought out a Born Again church because all my relatives were nominal Catholics, had no real knowledge of the Bible, and I wanted to be with people who had read the Bible. I just wanted to discuss it. But I still had my Catholic background, and I had no idea the protestant Christians were going to be so against Catholicism that they were going to call it Satan’s religion. I never agreed with that. They would also ask me, “are you going to Heaven?” I would respond by saying that I don’t know, but I hope so. They told me this was wrong thinking, and if I accepted Jesus Christ as lord and savior, I could be certain I was going to Heaven. So, at this point I had inadvertently alienated myself from my natural family. Therefore, I prayed the sinners prayer with them, and I did the total immersion in water Baptism. I then did the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with numerous preachers and churches, but I never started to speak in another language, which some of them insisted was the only proof of being filled with the Holy Spirit. But in spite of all this, I never believed I could be 100% certain I’d be in Heaven. I did change. But the changes came slowly over time. The church I had joined was created by a man who said God gave him a prophesy of total economic collapse in the year of 1984. When that didn’t happen, me and many others left that church. Thusly, I was alone again. As the years went by I tried other churches. They all claimed to have the 1 and only real truth about God. They also all claimed to be living the Bible as they considered themselves disciples of Christ. I had sins then, and I still have some now. But as I’d get to know the people in any church I joined, I’d discover almost everyone had pet sins they wouldn’t give up. And many were worse than me. But I was honest enough to confess my sins to whomever I was close with, while most kept their sins secret. And then I would be alone again. The only person I could count on was my dear Mother, who said the sinners prayer with me, but remained a devoted Catholic. I’m not trying to say my Mother was perfect by any means. But to say she was of the devil because she prayed the Rosary daily, and went to a Catholic church all her life, is absurd. She was my only immediate family and I lost her 12 years ago.
So I’m alone again. I know I have God with me, but I long for human companionship. In the past 10 years I joined several evangelical churches. The one that seemed most promising had a singles group which I joined. We had several activities I went to. But afterwards they’d go to restaurant for a snack. The group leader wanted everyone to drink, and I had given that up. I didn’t care if they wanted alcohol, but the group leader didn’t like me because I wouldn’t get drunk with them. So I got the left foot of fellowship.
I never really gave up all my Catholic beliefs. I also really do believe that Holy Mother Mary has been making appearances on Earth. I became very interested in her appearances in Fatima after seeing the movie. And then in the 1990’s I became interested in her appearances in Medjugorje. I’ve been watching some of the You Tube videos about these. I live in 1 of the areas that was hit hardest by super storm Sandy. Even last year before knowing what Mary said, I was convinced that storm was a warning from God, that we either stop sinning so much, or more terrible things will happen.
Again, I apologize for this being so long, and I thank anyone who read it.
God Bless,
John
But I did a little research on the Net, and I read it was mostly the Jewish mystics who believed in transmigration of souls. The reason this interested me is because in John’s Gospel, as Jesus and his disciples walk into a city, there’s a man begging who was born blind. One disciple asked Jesus, who sinned that this man was born blind, him or his parents? Jesus side steps the question by saying no one sinned. This man was born blind so the works of God may be made manifest through him. Many years ago a relative quoted this to me to prove the ancient Jews believed in reincarnation. Well, yes and no, and not in the way the Hindus believe it.
At any rate, I didn’t mean this thread to be about reincarnation, but purgatory. I’m unusual man because even 30 years ago, most folks joined a Born Again church, and then maybe read the Bible. But I read the Bible first. I only sought out a Born Again church because all my relatives were nominal Catholics, had no real knowledge of the Bible, and I wanted to be with people who had read the Bible. I just wanted to discuss it. But I still had my Catholic background, and I had no idea the protestant Christians were going to be so against Catholicism that they were going to call it Satan’s religion. I never agreed with that. They would also ask me, “are you going to Heaven?” I would respond by saying that I don’t know, but I hope so. They told me this was wrong thinking, and if I accepted Jesus Christ as lord and savior, I could be certain I was going to Heaven. So, at this point I had inadvertently alienated myself from my natural family. Therefore, I prayed the sinners prayer with them, and I did the total immersion in water Baptism. I then did the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with numerous preachers and churches, but I never started to speak in another language, which some of them insisted was the only proof of being filled with the Holy Spirit. But in spite of all this, I never believed I could be 100% certain I’d be in Heaven. I did change. But the changes came slowly over time. The church I had joined was created by a man who said God gave him a prophesy of total economic collapse in the year of 1984. When that didn’t happen, me and many others left that church. Thusly, I was alone again. As the years went by I tried other churches. They all claimed to have the 1 and only real truth about God. They also all claimed to be living the Bible as they considered themselves disciples of Christ. I had sins then, and I still have some now. But as I’d get to know the people in any church I joined, I’d discover almost everyone had pet sins they wouldn’t give up. And many were worse than me. But I was honest enough to confess my sins to whomever I was close with, while most kept their sins secret. And then I would be alone again. The only person I could count on was my dear Mother, who said the sinners prayer with me, but remained a devoted Catholic. I’m not trying to say my Mother was perfect by any means. But to say she was of the devil because she prayed the Rosary daily, and went to a Catholic church all her life, is absurd. She was my only immediate family and I lost her 12 years ago.
So I’m alone again. I know I have God with me, but I long for human companionship. In the past 10 years I joined several evangelical churches. The one that seemed most promising had a singles group which I joined. We had several activities I went to. But afterwards they’d go to restaurant for a snack. The group leader wanted everyone to drink, and I had given that up. I didn’t care if they wanted alcohol, but the group leader didn’t like me because I wouldn’t get drunk with them. So I got the left foot of fellowship.
I never really gave up all my Catholic beliefs. I also really do believe that Holy Mother Mary has been making appearances on Earth. I became very interested in her appearances in Fatima after seeing the movie. And then in the 1990’s I became interested in her appearances in Medjugorje. I’ve been watching some of the You Tube videos about these. I live in 1 of the areas that was hit hardest by super storm Sandy. Even last year before knowing what Mary said, I was convinced that storm was a warning from God, that we either stop sinning so much, or more terrible things will happen.
Again, I apologize for this being so long, and I thank anyone who read it.
God Bless,
John
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