Where Has "Common Courtesy" Gone?

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One of the things I found most impressive as I began looking at the Church was the sacred silence before Mass. That was something new to me, something powerful, and something so very moving. People were kneeling to pray and you could hear a pin drop. You could hear its echo too.

Those days seem to be gone.
Yes. As I mentioned earlier, on EWTN’s Journey Home, a Protestant visiting a Catholic church was amazed at how quiet it was. He remarked “this is a church, not a meeting hall.”

Something happened that made bishops and priests turn their back to the loss of common courtesy. I would really like to know what that was. My retired priest friend would suggest they wanted to move away from the sacred silence to the “conviviality” of a carnival atmosphere so maybe bishops and priests not only turned their back on the behavior, maybe they even encouraged it?

Why would they want trigger greater “conviviality” within the context of the Mass?
 
I suggest that the OP might want to consider the possibility that he or she is overly-sensitive to very quiet noises. I’m guessing that many other people in his/her parish would say, “Huh? It’s perfectly quiet in here!”

That being said, I also think the OP might want to try to calm the anger and resentment, stop thinking about this as a “common courtesy” issue, and instead, think about some of the reasons why people nowdays make noise.

Here are my ideas:
  1. People are uncomfortable with silence.
This is a trait that has developed in the last few decades in the U.S. Most people have to have some kind of background noise or they are simply too uncomfortable to work or play. In workplaces, a radio is almost always allowed because many people can’t work without it. In my workplace (hospital lab) all the young people wear iPods and earbuds all day. Many people turn the TV on the instant they walk into their homes. Many people turn the radio on in their car. Many people sleep with a “white noise” machine because they can’t stand total silence (I’m one of those people).

Even farmers now drive enclosed tractors with radios, computers, and TVs! No more clip-clop plodding of strong horses, and no more driving around and around the field for hours with no noise other than birds and the wind! Farmers today are connected!

As to why we are uncomfortable with silence, that’s a good question. I personally think many people don’t like being alone with their thoughts, because they are forced to think about serious things. This is especially true in a church–people have to actually THINK about Who they are supposed to be worshipping, and that’s really scary.
  1. People are lonely.
It seems incomprehensible that with most of us living in a city or town surrounded by people, and with most of us mobile (cars, other forms of transportation), and with most of us having constant access to phones and computer–we are so lonely.

Many of us live isolated lives much of the time, and we don’t have the constant “chat over the back fence” that used to be the norm in American homes.

And of course, half of us are divorced, and that is a terrible form of loneliness.

Many of us spend too much time living in a fantasy world because we watch TV, surf the web, or read magazines and fiction works for hours at a stretch. We don’t DO any life, we just read about or watch OTHERS living it. This intensifies our loneliness, because we feel that everyone else is having a great time and has many friends–except us.

So it’s no wonder that people feel the need to try to make contact with other human beings in a friendly and safe setting like a church.
  1. Social norms regarding children have changed, and it is highly unlikely that they will change back. It’s hard to believe that less than a century ago, society’s rule for children was “Be seen and not heard.” Nowadays, children are encouraged from birth to speak right up! A child who talks is highly regarded by parents, relatives, and teachers. In fact, in many schools, “silence” is no longer golden–teachers encourage a lively classroom filled with conversation, music, and the study noises.
For that matter, it used to be considered good manners for a woman to be quiet and demure. This is no longer the case. It is not just feminists who believe that women have a right to be speak up and be heard.

So I think that sometimes, people have a difficult time switching off. They’re so used to speaking up! And families are used to chatter and conversation, and most little ones have a very hard time differentiating the times when talking is OK and when it isn’t OK. Someone older ones can’t differentiate, either!

These are just three of my ideas. I’m certainly not saying that they are all good developments in society. I think it’s sad that we are no longer able to be comfortable with silence, and very very sad that we are all so lonely and desperate for human contact.

As for the change in what is considered “good manners,” well, there’s not really a lot we can do about this–to rail against it is only going to cause frustration and create animosity. Societal norms take a long time to change, and it’s unlikely we will go back to a time when people were expected to be quiet.

So my suggestion is that for our own mental and emotional health and peace, we each stop railing againt the noise, and learn to deal with this new social “noise” norm.

We can re-learn how to worship God in the midst of the noise. It is possible to find a “quiet place” within ourselves, and retreat there during Mass or other times when we want to seek God.

I personally don’t think it is effective when priests speak against the noise, or when signs are up. I’ve seen both approaches used in Protestant and Catholic churches (yes, “noise” and conversation is an even bigger problem in many Protestant churches). It just doesn’t work. The conventions of our society, and the forces which cause us to be “noisy” are just too powerful, and people forget the priest’s/pastor’s admonition, and they stop seeing the signs.

Truly, the best approach is to learn to “don’t worry, be happy.” I know that sounds new agey and kind of silly, but what is the solution otherwise?

Sit and stew? This only raises stress levels and causes early death.

Complain to the priest? Again, what can he do when his announcements and his signs meet with no compliance? (He could walk out of the Mass, but this seems inappropriate and probably would get HIM in trouble, and again, in a few weeks, people would forget and start being noisy again.)

Shush the people around you? Chances are good that within a few weeks, people will complain to the priest about YOU! And it’s likely that the priest will tell you that it’s not your place to try to enforce your idea of good manners.

Nope–this is one of those situations where you just have to adjust your own thinking. Or move to a country where silence is still golden.
 
Tuning a guitar inside of a church just prior to Mass while people are trying to prepare through prayer is resoundingly rude. It exhibits a total lack of common courtesy.
No its the same as the organist practicing/tuning before hand.
 
When I was young, I remember hearing a lot of discussion about how “cold” Catholic churches were as opposed to the more “friendly welcoming” atmosphere of Protestant churches. I think that criticism has led to the reluctance of Pastors to stop people from being chatty and friendly with each other. At the parish I attend, the music director gets up every single week before Mass begins and says “now everyone rise, look for a face you don’t recognize and evangelize”. This leads to 5 minutes of chatting that takes quite a while to calm down. And then, we shake hands with the SAME people at the Sign of Peace. 🤷
 
I attended Mass at a nearby chapel and there were two people having a whispered conversation. I personally didn’t think it was loud or disruptive, but a woman about 3 pews ahead of them stood up, turned around, and hissed at them: “SHHHHH—!” in a loud voice (a loud hiss?). Then she knelt back down and continued to pray with her hands over her ears.
 
It’s CRUDE behavior.
I think we need to agree on a definition of “crude” here. Are the guitarists in your church getting out of the choir, walking across the sanctuary, hitting the tuning notes, and yelling to each other across the nave that “it’s flat” or “it’s sharp”? Then, okay, it’s crude.

But a simple “ting, ting, ting” as they bring the A-string in tune with the E-string? Sorry. It simply is not crude. They aren’t grabbing their crotches or spitting while singing the National Anthem; they’re just getting ready to play music in praise of God.

I don’t know, maybe Cat is right and the OP is simply oversensitive. But this simply is not crude behavior.
 
I think we need to agree on a definition of “crude” here. Are the guitarists in your church getting out of the choir, walking across the sanctuary, hitting the tuning notes, and yelling to each other across the nave that “it’s flat” or “it’s sharp”? Then, okay, it’s crude.

But a simple “ting, ting, ting” as they bring the A-string in tune with the E-string? Sorry. It simply is not crude. They aren’t grabbing their crotches or spitting while singing the National Anthem; they’re just getting ready to play music in praise of God.

I don’t know, maybe Cat is right and the OP is simply oversensitive. But this simply is not crude behavior.
In most cases there is no choir in terms of people or space.

There is a cantor/vocalist and a guitarist/co-vocalist. Many times there is just a cantor/vocalist/guitarist. The people are very visible, at the foot of the sanctuary steps.

When the guitarist tunes-up before Mass it’s horrid. They should do it outside or in an adjoining room. I asked one of them very nicely one time if they could possibly warm-up in an open classroom. The response was a highly arrogant “others have asked too but Fr. Paul has not demanded we do this.”

It’s crude behavior, devoid of common courtesy.
 
I attended Mass at a nearby chapel and there were two people having a whispered conversation. I personally didn’t think it was loud or disruptive, but a woman about 3 pews ahead of them stood up, turned around, and hissed at them: “SHHHHH—!” in a loud voice (a loud hiss?). Then she knelt back down and continued to pray with her hands over her ears.
That’s bad form too. One has to use tact. But it’s remarkable how people simply ignore pleas to be quiet in a church.
 
I suggest that the OP might want to consider the possibility that he or she is overly-sensitive to very quiet noises. I’m guessing that many other people in his/her parish would say, “Huh? It’s perfectly quiet in here!”
That’s not the case. Holding a conversation (normal tone/volume) in church is simply unacceptable. I’m not really sure why people are that crude, hence this thread. Right below this you state “I also think the OP might want to try to calm the anger and resentment.” My anger and resentment is long gone. It was replaced long ago by disgust and a realization that this is simply how things are.
That being said, I also think the OP might want to try to calm the anger and resentment, stop thinking about this as a “common courtesy” issue, and instead, think about some of the reasons why people nowdays make noise.

Here are my ideas:
  1. People are uncomfortable with silence.
This is a trait that has developed in the last few decades in the U.S. Most people have to have some kind of background noise or they are simply too uncomfortable to work or play. In workplaces, a radio is almost always allowed because many people can’t work without it. In my workplace (hospital lab) all the young people wear iPods and earbuds all day. Many people turn the TV on the instant they walk into their homes. Many people turn the radio on in their car. Many people sleep with a “white noise” machine because they can’t stand total silence (I’m one of those people).

Even farmers now drive enclosed tractors with radios, computers, and TVs! No more clip-clop plodding of strong horses, and no more driving around and around the field for hours with no noise other than birds and the wind! Farmers today are connected!

As to why we are uncomfortable with silence, that’s a good question. I personally think many people don’t like being alone with their thoughts, because they are forced to think about serious things. This is especially true in a church–people have to actually THINK about Who they are supposed to be worshipping, and that’s really scary.
  1. People are lonely.
It seems incomprehensible that with most of us living in a city or town surrounded by people, and with most of us mobile (cars, other forms of transportation), and with most of us having constant access to phones and computer–we are so lonely.

Many of us live isolated lives much of the time, and we don’t have the constant “chat over the back fence” that used to be the norm in American homes.

And of course, half of us are divorced, and that is a terrible form of loneliness.

Many of us spend too much time living in a fantasy world because we watch TV, surf the web, or read magazines and fiction works for hours at a stretch. We don’t DO any life, we just read about or watch OTHERS living it. This intensifies our loneliness, because we feel that everyone else is having a great time and has many friends–except us.

So it’s no wonder that people feel the need to try to make contact with other human beings in a friendly and safe setting like a church.
  1. Social norms regarding children have changed, and it is highly unlikely that they will change back. It’s hard to believe that less than a century ago, society’s rule for children was “Be seen and not heard.” Nowadays, children are encouraged from birth to speak right up! A child who talks is highly regarded by parents, relatives, and teachers. In fact, in many schools, “silence” is no longer golden–teachers encourage a lively classroom filled with conversation, music, and the study noises.
For that matter, it used to be considered good manners for a woman to be quiet and demure. This is no longer the case. It is not just feminists who believe that women have a right to be speak up and be heard.

So I think that sometimes, people have a difficult time switching off. They’re so used to speaking up! And families are used to chatter and conversation, and most little ones have a very hard time differentiating the times when talking is OK and when it isn’t OK. Someone older ones can’t differentiate, either!

These are just three of my ideas. I’m certainly not saying that they are all good developments in society. I think it’s sad that we are no longer able to be comfortable with silence, and very very sad that we are all so lonely and desperate for human contact.

As for the change in what is considered “good manners,” well, there’s not really a lot we can do about this–to rail against it is only going to cause frustration and create animosity. Societal norms take a long time to change, and it’s unlikely we will go back to a time when people were expected to be quiet.

So my suggestion is that for our own mental and emotional health and peace, we each stop railing againt the noise, and learn to deal with this new social “noise” norm.

We can re-learn how to worship God in the midst of the noise. It is possible to find a “quiet place” within ourselves, and retreat there during Mass or other times when we want to seek God.

I personally don’t think it is effective when priests speak against the noise, or when signs are up. I’ve seen both approaches used in Protestant and Catholic churches (yes, “noise” and conversation is an even bigger problem in many Protestant churches). It just doesn’t work. The conventions of our society, and the forces which cause us to be “noisy” are just too powerful, and people forget the priest’s/pastor’s admonition, and they stop seeing the signs.

Truly, the best approach is to learn to “don’t worry, be happy.” I know that sounds new agey and kind of silly, but what is the solution otherwise?

Sit and stew? This only raises stress levels and causes early death.

Complain to the priest? Again, what can he do when his announcements and his signs meet with no compliance? (He could walk out of the Mass, but this seems inappropriate and probably would get HIM in trouble, and again, in a few weeks, people would forget and start being noisy again.)

Shush the people around you? Chances are good that within a few weeks, people will complain to the priest about YOU! And it’s likely that the priest will tell you that it’s not your place to try to enforce your idea of good manners.

Nope–this is one of those situations where you just have to adjust your own thinking. Or move to a country where silence is still golden.
All excuses, huh? 😦

Pastors can do a great deal and they don’t need to be hard-noses about it either. How about a sincere, prayer each week during the general intercessions for an atmosphere worth of the Sacrifice of the Mass?

How about directing musicians not to tune-up in church before and during Mass.

How about (and this is a favorite of mine) opening a classroom/parish hall/etc. before Mass and ask that those that want to visit please do so there and not in church.

How about getting rid of volunteers who use the sanctuary as a stage before and after Mass?

There is a HUGE amount of stuff that a pastor can do.
 
No its the same as the organist practicing/tuning before hand.
When we have an organist, each of them makes it a rule that they are THROUGH tuning up 20 minutes before Mass begins.

Each of them has common courtesy – and they do that on their own time.
 
When we have an organist, each of them makes it a rule that they are THROUGH tuning up 20 minutes before Mass begins.

Each of them has common courtesy – and they do that on their own time.
You have yet to show any source supporting your theory that tuning up is rude. You keep calling “not tuning up” common courtesy, and I’m asking you: since when?

If someone challenged you saying that giving the finger to someone wasn’t rude, you could back up your statement that it is. If we said that arguing with the priest during a homily isn’t rude, you could easily find support for your claim that it is.

What’s your reasoning for claiming that tuning an instrument is rude? I’ve never heard of such a thing from any person outside your posts on this thread.
 
That’s not the case. Holding a conversation (normal tone/volume) in church is simply unacceptable. I’m not really sure why people are that crude, hence this thread. Right below this you state “I also think the OP might want to try to calm the anger and resentment.” My anger and resentment is long gone. It was replaced long ago by disgust and a realization that this is simply how things are.

All excuses, huh? 😦

Pastors can do a great deal and they don’t need to be hard-noses about it either. How about a sincere, prayer each week during the general intercessions for an atmosphere worth of the Sacrifice of the Mass?

How about directing musicians not to tune-up in church before and during Mass.

How about (and this is a favorite of mine) opening a classroom/parish hall/etc. before Mass and ask that those that want to visit please do so there and not in church.

How about getting rid of volunteers who use the sanctuary as a stage before and after Mass?

There is a HUGE amount of stuff that a pastor can do.
What exactly do you mean by volunteers using the sanctuary as a a stage before and after Mass?
 
I’m not interested in hearing about the EF Mass or communion-on-tongue or female altar servers, or Gregorian Chant or the wearing of mantillas, etc. Please take those matters to other threads.

NONE of those caused people to act indifferent or downright rude at Mass. None of those things stripped away common courtesy.

Something(s) changed. Expectations for one. This issue really interests me because like it or not, it has done a real number on the Church and innumerable souls over my lifetime.
It’s CRUDE behavior.
It’s horribly rude. You suggest you “bother no one.” It’s exactly that mindset that I am trying to figure out. How can you be so devoid of common courtesy? Any idea at all?
All excuses, huh? 😦
Maybe the OP should look into what Common Courtesy really is.
 
Maybe the OP should look into what Common Courtesy really is.
That’s cute and all but all you are doing is trying to divert attention away from a problem.

That in itself has taken a terrible toll on the Church. People with legitimate concerns are attacked for being “judgmental.” Conversely, clergy has long been given a pass when it comes to accountability.

Your comment was not unexpected.
 
What exactly do you mean by volunteers using the sanctuary as a a stage before and after Mass?
I can give you an example from my parish. While setting up for the Mass, laypeople have done everything from dance in the sanctuary (while waving to friends in the nave), to using it as a shortcut to enter the church (even when they had no duties – some walk back and forth between the pews and the sacristy across the sanctuary several times just to be seen) to bowing to their friends (who are clapping for them) as if they just won an Academy Award.

After Mass the sanctuary becomes hang-out place and conversation spot for the in crowd. It’s hideous.
 
I can give you an example from my parish. While setting up for the Mass, laypeople have done everything from dance in the sanctuary (while waving to friends in the nave), to using it as a shortcut to enter the church (even when they had no duties – some walk back and forth between the pews and the sacristy across the sanctuary several times just to be seen) to bowing to their friends (who are clapping for them) as if they just won an Academy Award.

After Mass the sanctuary becomes hang-out place and conversation spot for the in crowd. It’s hideous.
Those sounds like a lack of common courtesy to me. 😦

I really like the idea of saying an intercessory prayer for “proper reverence before, during and after Mass” with appropriate wording. Just make sure that any message like this is consistently communicated and understood.
 
I’m not sure what you’re addressing here. Sure, there’s lots of talking in Church. It’s common courtesy to greet people you know and rude if you don’t. I fully expect there to be some talking even during Mass – if nothing else, parents are admonishing children or explaining what’s happening; ushers are finding seats for people; musicians are whispering about the next song; people are whispering for the hard-of-hearing; and so on. Granted, talking about the ball game is for later; but heck if I’m going to walk past a friend whose wife is in the hospital without asking him how she’s doing, even if we’re in the sanctuary, and even if Mass is starting in a few minutes.

I haven’t seen “crude behavior” of people setting up for Mass, so I’m not sure what you’re alluding to; and I have no idea what you mean by a “get it done” attitude of the presiding priest. I’ll have to leave those for others to address.

I’ve seen some discourtesy in Mass, of course; I imagine most of us have. But the idea that Mass is supposed to be a mausoleum is simply incorrect.
👍
 
Those sounds like a lack of common courtesy to me. 😦

I really like the idea of saying an intercessory prayer for “proper reverence before, during and after Mass” with appropriate wording. Just make sure that any message like this is consistently communicated and understood.
That is a very good idea.

I wonder what would happen it priests prayed for people to stay for the entire Mass, not to talk during Mass, etc. as part of the general intercessions?
 
These are probably the same people that think there’s nothing wrong with texting during a conversation.
 
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