Where Have All The Apostates And Anti-Mormons Gone?

[majick275]

I think I’ll throw this one out to the feeding frenzy and see what kind of bites I get.

When you get your information about what Mormons believe from anti-mormons, what you get is cartoonish caricatures of what we believe, and when we DO explain what we do believe, no one listens long enough here to GET it. And of course you don’t want to GET it because we might be right.

Then everybody has fun making fun of the caricatures, and you all get to think that you have “refuted” something, and you all dance around in war paint and whoop it up.

Let’s try to be reasonable one more time. I don’t know why I am such an optimist, but here goes.

Let’s just look at how Mormons view God.

We believe that there is one “God” who is infinite and eternal. “God” is like a family of three persons who are perfectly united in purpose. Talk to one, you talk to all. They are one.

Each person who is part of the three is in some sense “God” as well. Jesus is God, and he is a member of the “Godhead”

So you could easily caricature this belief as “polytheism”

“Mormons believe in 3 Gods ha ha”

But that statement would be neither true nor accurate.

Mormons also SPECULATE on things that never occurr to most people. What happened before the Big Bang? How could we know that? Science cannot prove anything about that. Time began at the big bang. So to discuss what happened “before” time makes no sense. It is an object of faith.

It is my personal belief, not doctrinal, that God in some sense caused the big bang.

That means that somehow, he existed before time.

But why did he cause the big bang? Why did he make the world?

These are all clearly faith based questions which no one can “prove” the answers to.

One of the theories put forward is the quasi-doctrinal belief of Mormons that God himself was once as we are now. Before time, before creation, before anything that we can ever in principle know or understand. Perhaps it was in another universe, dimension or whatever-- we cannot in principle KNOW this in any scientific sense. We can know it by revelation, however.

Catholicism doesn’t even ask the question “What was God doing floating around for eternity before he created us?”

We answer the questions Catholicism doesn’t even ask.

But people who don’t understand now take this and say “Mormons are polytheists, who believe in life on other planets”

If that is your level of understanding of what I have explained, then so be it. It is a total caricature.

This is true for all of Mormon doctrine.

And if you think for a second that you understand the symbolism of the temple, think again.

You have to go hundreds of times before you even begin to get a glimmer of the textures of the symbolism. The ordinace itself is like learning to draw the alphabet. And then you see that what that alphabet creates is far beyond shakespeare. That there could be so much information in such a brief presentation is a miracle in itself.

It is like looking at the code of an encrypted file and thinking you understand the full context of why the file was written.

One of our prophets at an advanced age turned to a member of the quorum of 12 and said “You know, I think I am just beginning to understand the endowment”.

So where’s the warpaint?

no need for warpaint. you have proven the case for most of us. mormons either don’t know their doctrine (a common problem for all religions) OR diagree with parts of it and become “cafeteria” members ( same as above) OR they mislead publicly as part of the milk before meat approach.

Those of us who WERE mormons have no need of caricatures. we find them counterproductive as the truth is far more effective.

The truth is that zerinus support the LoF nature of God and your portrayal here are NOT LDS doctrine. Eternal progression is not and never was “quasi-doctrinal” (whaetver that’s supposed to mean) it is taught today as evidenced by the LDS website.

Catholics have no need ot ask these questions (red herrings) you toss out there. we know the answer. God is eternally God.

The Temple symbolism? it’s not nearly as esoteric or profound as you try to make it sound. I can easily tell you what all of the symbols mean and you can verify them with you r temple president when you go next if you are really interested. why do you think there aren’t any temple classes in the temple where supposedly you CAN discuss these things? because it’s the emperors new clothes.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

And you know better than most how much of a caricature you make of what is in these sources.

Actually, I think you’ve got that backwards. I’ve seen Mormon explanations of the questions put forth. The responses are very similar to cartoons, you wascally wabbit.

 

[majick275]

Tell that to St Francis of Assisi or Theresa of Avila. It’s not that I am “hurt” it’s just that if you guys are trying to convert anyone, it’s not going to work that way.

Get your motivation straight and then live with it. I am here to defend what you think Mormonism is.

no, you are here to defend what YOU think mormonism is. some of us know the difference.

BTW…RCIA classes seem pretty full…again…so apparently it IS working that way. Despite the (incorrect) mantra of “fastest growing church in the world” (which is irrelevant as well) it is the quick close, emotional appeal approach of the LDS that seems to be failing.

 

[Believe_85]

I think I’ll throw this one out to the feeding frenzy and see what kind of bites I get.

When you get your information about what Mormons believe from anti-mormons, what you get is cartoonish caricatures of what we believe, and when we DO explain what we do believe, no one listens long enough here to GET it. And of course you don’t want to GET it because we might be right.

Then everybody has fun making fun of the caricatures, and you all get to think that you have “refuted” something, and you all dance around in war paint and whoop it up.

Let’s try to be reasonable one more time. I don’t know why I am such an optimist, but here goes.

Let’s just look at how Mormons view God.

We believe that there is one “God” who is infinite and eternal. “God” is like a family of three persons who are perfectly united in purpose. Talk to one, you talk to all. They are one.

Each person who is part of the three is in some sense “God” as well. Jesus is God, and he is a member of the “Godhead”

So you could easily caricature this belief as “polytheism”

“Mormons believe in 3 Gods ha ha”

But that statement would be neither true nor accurate.

Mormons also SPECULATE on things that never occurr to most people. What happened before the Big Bang? How could we know that? Science cannot prove anything about that. Time began at the big bang. So to discuss what happened “before” time makes no sense. It is an object of faith.

It is my personal belief, not doctrinal, that God in some sense caused the big bang.

That means that somehow, he existed before time.

But why did he cause the big bang? Why did he make the world?

These are all clearly faith based questions which no one can “prove” the answers to.

One of the theories put forward is the quasi-doctrinal belief of Mormons that God himself was once as we are now. Before time, before creation, before anything that we can ever in principle know or understand. Perhaps it was in another universe, dimension or whatever-- we cannot in principle KNOW this in any scientific sense. We can know it by revelation, however.

Catholicism doesn’t even ask the question “What was God doing floating around for eternity before he created us?”

We answer the questions Catholicism doesn’t even ask.

But people who don’t understand now take this and say “Mormons are polytheists, who believe in life on other planets”

If that is your level of understanding of what I have explained, then so be it. It is a total caricature.

This is true for all of Mormon doctrine.

And if you think for a second that you understand the symbolism of the temple, think again.

You have to go hundreds of times before you even begin to get a glimmer of the textures of the symbolism. The ordinace itself is like learning to draw the alphabet. And then you see that what that alphabet creates is far beyond shakespeare. That there could be so much information in such a brief presentation is a miracle in itself.

It is like looking at the code of an encrypted file and thinking you understand the full context of why the file was written.

One of our prophets at an advanced age turned to a member of the quorum of 12 and said “You know, I think I am just beginning to understand the endowment”.

So where’s the warpaint?

Because prophecy (beyond personal) died with the apostles and the existence of the Catholic Church nulls the possibility of apostasy, Catholics will naturally disagree with LDS theology. To Catholics, Mormonism is false at the core because the apostasy never happened. (Jesus did not lie about protecting his Church from Hell). In addition, the Mormon faith exists because people believe an apostasy happened. Disprove the apostasy theory, disprove Mormonism. Prove apostacy, some people believe there’s a need for restoration and choose Mormonism as that answer. Do as you wish, but from the Catholic perspective there is no reason for us to trust any Mormon revelations about theology or doctrine because the Bible is a done deal and we have 2000+ years of Tradition guarded by the Holy Spirit to shape our understanding of who and how God is.

 

[twopekinguys]

OK, I am confused. I will admit it.

With the Catholic church, we have well defined chain of command so to speak. We know where our teachings and doctrines come from, and how they are passed on to the people of the church.

What I don’t understand, is the heirarchy of the lds, and how the lds doctrines are decided/formed/estatblished, and how it is passed down to John Q Public in the pew? I also don’t understand why it appears there are so many interpretations on individual issues.

I’m not trying to start a fight, I’m just trying to understand how your churches teachings work.

Or would I be better off starting a thread on this?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Get your motivation straight and then live with it. I am here to defend what you think Mormonism is.

Very strange statement you’ve made. If Mormons weren’t here doing missionary work, we wouldn’t be discussing Mormonism at all.

Mormons come here and say “great apostasy”, “great apostasy” because we believe it! Oh, we have no proof of a “great apostasy” but we believe it, therefore it must be true!

You accuse the Catholic Church of being an apostate Church and as being paganistic. Who’s defending what are here?

 

[hosemonkey]

And if you think for a second that you understand the symbolism of the temple, think again.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

If you have to go hundreds of times in order to understand a caricature of the masonic ritual, you are indeed very thick. Your “prophet” certainly must not have been paying attention for all those years if he could not understand the first three degrees of Blue Lodge Freemasonry. That or he was, like the vast majority of mormons, in extreme denial. And BTW, we are not here to convert anyone, unlike mormons who come here in an attempt to proselytise, but instead to lay out the unvarnished fact about catholicism and let the informed inquirer make up his own mind. We do not lie to the inquirer, unlike mormons.

The milk is curdled and the meat is tainted.

 

[mfbukowski]

Very strange statement you’ve made. If Mormons weren’t here doing missionary work, we wouldn’t be discussing Mormonism at all.

Mormons come here and say “great apostasy”, “great apostasy” because we believe it! Oh, we have no proof of a “great apostasy” but we believe it, therefore it must be true!

You accuse the Catholic Church of being an apostate Church and as being paganistic. Who’s defending what are here?

Paganistic? Where did I say that? That is just WEIRD!

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Paganistic? Where did I say that? That is just WEIRD!

Remember you said the Catholic Church was paganistic and I pointed out how the temple ceremony was more paganistic? That made you want to take your ball and go home.

I bet hosemonkey remembers the disussion.

 

[hosemonkey]

Remember you said the Catholic Church was paganistic and I pointed out how the temple ceremony was more paganistic? That made you want to take your ball and go home.

I bet hosemonkey remembers the disussion.

I remember. Ski doesn’t want to talk about the temple rituals because he knows that I am right and they are just too wierd. “Powers and Priesthoods” Ski. And what about my question about denying women the “priesthood?” Why do you dress women up as Satan’s “priests” and then deny them “priesthood?”

 

[mfbukowski]

Very strange statement you’ve made. If Mormons weren’t here doing missionary work, we wouldn’t be discussing Mormonism at all.

Mormons come here and say “great apostasy”, “great apostasy” because we believe it! Oh, we have no proof of a “great apostasy” but we believe it, therefore it must be true!

You accuse the Catholic Church of being an apostate Church and as being paganistic. Who’s defending what are here?

I think you have apostophobia

I said nothing about apostasy here either

You know what they say about those who see conspiracy theories everywhere.

With the climate on these forums, how could you possibly think anyone is here to convert anyone else?

“OK mf, I think you got me, how can I get baptized.”

I don’t think so. The only reason I can imagine you might think that is an admission that maybe I have some good points that make you think I might be right. Then you have to come back with some straw man caricature of what I said in my post so you look good.

If I wasn’t making some points, no one would reply.

 

[hosemonkey]

I don’t think so. The only reason I can imagine you might think that is an admission that maybe I have some good points that make you think I might be right. Then you have to come back with some straw man caricature of what I said in my post so you look good.

Some of your “points” are so foolish that someone HAS to reply.
The only thing “right” I have seen you produce so far is the spelling of your name and what about this paganistic “Powers and Priesthoods” thing Ski. and how come women get involved. Don’t avoid the question, just give me an answer.

 

[dzheremi]

With the climate on these forums, how could you possibly think anyone is here to convert anyone else?

Why don’t you ask that question of Zerinus who started this thread, or Whyme who started that silly Mormon apologetics video thread a while ago? They’re clearly trying to do SOMETHING here on this Catholic board, and I don’t think it’s just a case of “look at this neat video I found; I thought you might enjoy it” or something like that.

Personally, I’m glad they have made such threads. It helps to remember what other religions believe, so that when Mormons come knocking on our doors we will already have ready arguments against anything they say thanks to our discussions here.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I think you have apostophobia

I said nothing about apostasy here either

You know what they say about those who see conspiracy theories everywhere.

With the climate on these forums, how could you possibly think anyone is here to convert anyone else?

“OK mf, I think you got me, how can I get baptized.”

I don’t think so. The only reason I can imagine you might think that is an admission that maybe I have some good points that make you think I might be right. Then you have to come back with some straw man caricature of what I said in my post so you look good.

If I wasn’t making some points, no one would reply.

Are you denying ever telling us you believe a great apostasy, so great a total corruption of the Church, took place?

I don’t worry about Mormon’s missionary work anymore. In fact, these discussions with Mormons has probably helped Catholicism in light of all the evidence that gets brought out.

 

[mfbukowski]

If you have to go hundreds of times in order to understand a caricature of the masonic ritual, you are indeed very thick. Your “prophet” certainly must not have been paying attention for all those years if he could not understand the first three degrees of Blue Lodge Freemasonry. That or he was, like the vast majority of mormons, in extreme denial. And BTW, we are not here to convert anyone, unlike mormons who come here in an attempt to proselytise, but instead to lay out the unvarnished fact about catholicism and let the informed inquirer make up his own mind. We do not lie to the inquirer, unlike mormons.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

hosemonkey;4141447:

We don’t lie.

As I have said before, freemasonry derives from solomon’s temple. Masonic lore says so. I have my Albert Pike Morals and Dogma

sittting right here on my desk. Man, that guy was UGLY. So mr mason, what does the checkered floor symbolize?

So the truth is that it is freemasonry which is apostate. They lifted rituals out of solomon’s temple. Joseph knew it was apostate as well.

I will discuss this no further. Period. Bring it up if you like, but it will be all fantasy on your part because I will not participate.

Are you taking your ball and going home again? And leave poor zerinus all alone?

 

[mfbukowski]

When you get your information about what Mormons believe from anti-mormons, what you get is cartoonish caricatures of what we believe, and when we DO explain what we do believe, no one listens long enough here to GET it. And of course you don’t want to GET it because we might be right.

This is the issue I am discussing. We have been through all the others a million times, and all they are is a smokescreen to cover that NO ONE has responded to this quoted post.

Prodigalson1 is particularly good at smokescreens, and usually attacks in a different area when I have made a point which makes him squirm.

Discuss what you want, but I am discussing only this post, #187 until I get an answer.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

This is the issue I am discussing. We have been through all the others a million times, and all they are is a smokescreen to cover that NO ONE has responded to this quoted post.

Prodigalson1 is particularly good at smokescreens, and usually attacks in a different area when I have made a point which makes him squirm.

Discuss what you want, but I am discussing only this post, #187 until I get an answer.

You mistake cringing with squirming friend. Those secret handshakes, tokens, annointing body parts, special underwear, heck the whole thing creeps me out.

You didn’t answer my question, are you denying you ever claimed a great apostasy took place, so great a total corruption of the Church happened?

Time for school, I’ll check back later.

 

[Believe_85]

This is the issue I am discussing. We have been through all the others a million times, and all they are is a smokescreen to cover that NO ONE has responded to this quoted post.

Prodigalson1 is particularly good at smokescreens, and usually attacks in a different area when I have made a point which makes him squirm.

Discuss what you want, but I am discussing only this post, #187 until I get an answer.

I posted a response to you. Maybe you didn’t see it. This thread has been busy.