Where Have All The Apostates And Anti-Mormons Gone?

[RebeccaJ]

Describe if you would the experience of seeing the color red so that someone who was blind could know what it was like.

Describe the sound of a french horn to a person who is deaf

AHHHH you can’t do it. I guess you have never heard a french horn or seen anything red.

This is what your argument amounts to. When I see the color red, I know it. There is no doubt. I know what red is, but I cannot describe the experience.

Color blind people cannot see a certain color – is it green? Let’s say it is.

Suppose there were a website for colorblind people who insisted that green didn’t exist and was purely “psychological”

That’s how I feel here.

There are millions of people out there who have “seen green” and know it is NOT “psychological”

I don’t expect you to understand.

Such arrogance, to claim that God reveals Himself to only Mormons. I suggest you rethink that one.

 

[AirLiner]

Describe if you would the experience of seeing the color red so that someone who was blind could know what it was like.

Describe the sound of a french horn to a person who is deaf

AHHHH you can’t do it. I guess you have never heard a french horn or seen anything red.

This is what your argument amounts to. When I see the color red, I know it. There is no doubt. I know what red is, but I cannot describe the experience.

Color blind people cannot see a certain color – is it green? Let’s say it is.

Suppose there were a website for colorblind people who insisted that green didn’t exist and was purely “psychological”

That’s how I feel here.

There are millions of people out there who have “seen green” and know it is NOT “psychological”

I don’t expect you to understand.

The reason I am so against your “testimonies” is that no matter how flawed mormon teachings are you people still stubbornly believe in them because you had a “testimony” that told you that mormonism was true.

You were very good at describing to me your biking experience and I have no trouble accepting that you experienced the Holy Spirit then, now please if you can describe that why can’t you describe your “testimony”?

 

[AMDGtoo]

You know when it was said that it’s “psychological”, I don’t think that anyone was calling you “crazy”. It’s just a fact. The mind is quite powerful and therefore so is the power of suggestion. Don’t believe? What about placebos? Why do they work? Afterall, they are just sugar pills. Physicians will tell you that it’s the “power of suggestion” that makes them work. IOW, it’s psychological.

You know we all have (or have had) these “feelings”. Mother’s are particularly known for it–it’s called in that case “intuition”. It’s true, but it’s psychological. Explanations? You are correct there–they can’t be explained (but they are so well known that I’ve heard one movie try by saying “there’s a little bit of witch in all of us”.)

I have had many of these “feelings”–even my daughter can’t deny them yet feelings don’t show anything accept feelings. Now combine your “feelings” with history, linguistics, archeology, logic, common sense, et. al. and you’ve taken things out of the realm of “just feelings”.

 

[mfbukowski]

Such arrogance, to claim that God reveals Himself to only Mormons. I suggest you rethink that one.

Not arrogant at all.

If you wanted Him to, he could reveal himself to you too. You have had problems with Mormonism your whole life.

Anyone can feel the spirit, as has been said. But a testimony is not “just” feeling the spirit.

I was Catholic until I was in my twenties, and now I have a testimony. So much for revelation only to Mormons.

 

[mfbukowski]

The reason I am so against your “testimonies” is that no matter how flawed mormon teachings are you people still stubbornly believe in them because you had a “testimony” that told you that mormonism was true.

You were very good at describing to me your biking experience and I have no trouble accepting that you experienced the Holy Spirit then, now please if you can describe that why can’t you describe your “testimony”?

Did you not read my previous post???

Describe the color red to a blind person.

I am not going to say it again. It cannot be described. That is all there is to it. When you have seen it, you know it.

 

[AirLiner]

I am not going to say it again. It cannot be described. That is all there is to it. When you have seen it, you know it.

Then how did you manage to describe your experience on the biking trip?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Not arrogant at all.

If you wanted Him to, he could reveal himself to you too.

What makes you think He has not?

You have had problems with Mormonism your whole life.

Which has all to do with what? You’ve had problems with Catholicism your whole life.

Anyone can feel the spirit, as has been said.

This is not what Mormonism teaches. Your cohort zerinus once said to me that I would never know God, because I am a “mormon apostate”. Wrong as he is, at least he knows what your church teaches.

But a testimony is not “just” feeling the spirit.

So answer the question that keeps being asked. What is a testimony?

I was Catholic until I was in my twenties, and now I have a testimony. So much for revelation only to Mormons.

You have been deceived.

 

[mfbukowski]

You know when it was said that it’s “psychological”, I don’t think that anyone was calling you “crazy”. It’s just a fact. The mind is quite powerful and therefore so is the power of suggestion. Don’t believe? What about placebos? Why do they work? Afterall, they are just sugar pills. Physicians will tell you that it’s the “power of suggestion” that makes them work. IOW, it’s psychological.

You know we all have (or have had) these “feelings”. Mother’s are particularly known for it–it’s called in that case “intuition”. It’s true, but it’s psychological. Explanations? You are correct there–they can’t be explained (but they are so well known that I’ve heard one movie try by saying “there’s a little bit of witch in all of us”.)

I have had many of these “feelings”–even my daughter can’t deny them yet feelings don’t show anything accept feelings. Now combine your “feelings” with history, linguistics, archeology, logic, common sense, et. al. and you’ve taken things out of the realm of “just feelings”.

What I am claiming is that it is a specific “feeling” like seeing a color you have not seen before. You know colors, you know feelings, but what if you saw a color you had never seen before or felt a feeling you have never felt before?

And millions have felt it, and all say you cannot describe it

I know what the “warm fuzzies” are. And this feeling is not the “warm fuzzies”.

Intuition is knowing something that just pops into your head. It is like my bike experience. That is one form I think of the holy spirit. But a testimony is different and is a specific experience.

Perhaps not all who are baptized have felt it. Perhaps there are some here who were baptized who have not felt it. I really don’t know.

What I do know, is that once you have felt it, you cannot deny it.

That is why I suspect many here have not felt it even though they were Mormons at one point. I don’t know. I can only speak of my own experience.

 

[mfbukowski]

Then how did you manage to describe your experience on the biking trip?

There was nothing to describe. Her name just kept popping into my head, while I was totally engrossed in an activity that was consuming all my attention. Steering, dodging rocks, looking at scenery etc.

 

[AirLiner]

And millions have felt it, and all say you cannot describe it

I know what the “warm fuzzies” are. And this feeling is not the “warm fuzzies”.

Woah there. Millions? Come on, the missionaries and mormon.org tell you that you will feel a burning sensation (psychological effect) This thread was where I first encountered the concept of describing the " testimony" as undescribable feeling. I think milllions have actually felt the fake warm fuzzy “testimony”

 

[AirLiner]

There was nothing to describe. Her name just kept popping into my head, while I was totally engrossed in an activity that was consuming all my attention. Steering, dodging rocks, looking at scenery etc.

Saying that her name popped in to your head was enough. Did any previoulsy unknown knowledge enter your head during your “testimony”?

 

[hosemonkey]

What makes you think He has not?

Which has all to do with what? You’ve had problems with Catholicism your whole life.

A fundamentalist protestant once told me that he was convinced that he was going to go to hell because he could not speak in “tongues.” This was such a vital part of his sect’s belief that if you were not conscious of being touched by the Holy Spirit, you were somehow not “saved.” I think that this also a part of mormonism. If you don’t have a real good “testimony” then you are somehow defective. So if you don’t have a rip-roarer to tell at fast and testimony meeting, you may not stand so high in the estimation of your fellow “Saints.” And somehow this formula, “I have a testimony,” has become the stamp of truth for every silly thing that mormons have come up with. "I have a testimony that the BOM is true,"means no more than to say “ABRACADABRA, I have a feeling that the BOM is true.” If you ain’t got one, then you better cook one up, 'cause if you don’t, you are going to feel awful lonesome when everybody else gets up and you don’t. It’s kinda like the reprobate who comes down front for the altar call and confesses to every sin in the book and then some and gets lots of attention from the amen corner and gets “saved” every time that he goes on another drunk. I think that mormons just enjoy the attention that a “good” testimony gets them. And all this hoorah about “it’s indescribable” is a lot of hokum. Full stop. And Ski, my malleus is in fine shape. And shall I translate malleus haereticorum for you? It means “Hammer of Heretics.”

 

[mfbukowski]

What makes you think He has not?

Mormons must believe that non-members can feel the spirit, or no one would ever be converted. You have to feel the spirit while you are not Mormon, or no one would have a testimony.

 

[mfbukowski]

A fundamentalist protestant once told me that he was convinced that he was going to go to hell because he could not speak in “tongues.” This was such a vital part of his sect’s belief that if you were not conscious of being touched by the Holy Spirit, you were somehow not “saved.” I think that this also a part of mormonism. If you don’t have a real good “testimony” then you are somehow defective. So if you don’t have a rip-roarer to tell at fast and testimony meeting, you may not stand so high in the estimation of your fellow “Saints.” And somehow this formula, “I have a testimony,” has become the stamp of truth for every silly thing that mormons have come up with. "I have a testimony that the BOM is true,"means no more than to say “ABRACADABRA, I have a feeling that the BOM is true.” If you ain’t got one, then you better cook one up, 'cause if you don’t, you are going to feel awful lonesome when everybody else gets up and you don’t. It’s kinda like the reprobate who comes down front for the altar call and confesses to every sin in the book and then some and gets lots of attention from the amen corner and gets “saved” every time that he goes on another drunk. I think that mormons just enjoy the attention that a “good” testimony gets them. And all this hoorah about “it’s indescribable” is a lot of hokum. Full stop. And Ski, my malleus is in fine shape. And shall I translate malleus haereticorium for you? It means “Hammer of Heretics.”

Father Neeley at Saints in san diego taught me that much. that’s why I said your malleus was getting worn out. But this is the longest post I have ever seen you make, so I must be getting to you. Anybody here remember Father neeley? great guy.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Mormons must believe that non-members can feel the spirit, or no one would ever be converted. You have to feel the spirit while you are not Mormon, or no one would have a testimony.

I question, often, what this testimony is, as no, I never had one.

What do you think then, of millions of Catholics who know God as He has revealed Himself. Three distinct persons, One in Being, One God? We only know this as Christ says, because God has made it known to us. Yet, you, as a Mormon, can’t seem to know the Truth of God’s nature. You stumble, and make guesses, speculate, go off on science fiction tangents, when it is there, before your eyes, yet you are unable to see?

Yet, you can tell people you know a “book is true”.

How can you know a book is true if you don’t even know God?

 

[hosemonkey]

Father Neeley at Saints in san diego taught me that much. that’s why I said your malleus was getting worn out. But this is the longest post I have ever seen you make, so I must be getting to you. Anybody here remember Father neeley? great guy.

You will have to get up very early in the morning, pack a good lunch and muster a ten man working party before you will get to me. I don’t get ulcers, I give 'em. My post applied to you, didn’t it?The good Father must be rolling in his grave to see how you have gone off the rails.

 

[mfbukowski]

Saying that her name popped in to your head was enough. Did any previoulsy unknown knowledge enter your head during your “testimony”?

Yes, before during and after the experience itself. But I won’t share what it was – it was private about my past and future life. It also included specific directions -certain things to do that helped confirm it to my rational mind. Places to go that I had never been before where I would see certain things. The factual knowledge helped “set up” and “conclude” the experience.

I have shared it all before but it is very personal and don’t feel that this is a good place to go into it.

I have told many people the details including some right after it happened, and everything is in principle verifiable by those people.

 

[hosemonkey]

Yes, before during and after the experience itself. But I won’t share what it was – it was private about my past and future life. It also included specific directions -certain things to do that helped confirm it to my rational mind. Places to go that I had never been before where I would see certain things. The factual knowledge helped “set up” and “conclude” the experience.

I have shared it all before but it is very personal and don’t feel that this is a good place to go into it.

Ski, did this happen to you that time when you forgot to wear your tinfoil hat? HaHa! Sorry, I couldn’t resist.

 

[mfbukowski]

I question, often, what this testimony is, as no, I never had one.

What do you think then, of millions of Catholics who know God as He has revealed Himself. Three distinct persons, One in Being, One God? We only know this as Christ says, because God has made it known to us. Yet, you, as a Mormon, can’t seem to know the Truth of God’s nature. You stumble, and make guesses, speculate, go off on science fiction tangents, when it is there, before your eyes, yet you are unable to see?

Yet, you can tell people you know a “book is true”.

How can you know a book is true if you don’t even know God?

OH my. No, no hostility here at all.

 

[mfbukowski]

A fundamentalist protestant once told me that he was convinced that he was going to go to hell because he could not speak in “tongues.” This was such a vital part of his sect’s belief that if you were not conscious of being touched by the Holy Spirit, you were somehow not “saved.” I think that this also a part of mormonism. If you don’t have a real good “testimony” then you are somehow defective. So if you don’t have a rip-roarer to tell at fast and testimony meeting, you may not stand so high in the estimation of your fellow “Saints.” And somehow this formula, “I have a testimony,” has become the stamp of truth for every silly thing that mormons have come up with. "I have a testimony that the BOM is true,"means no more than to say “ABRACADABRA, I have a feeling that the BOM is true.” If you ain’t got one, then you better cook one up, 'cause if you don’t, you are going to feel awful lonesome when everybody else gets up and you don’t. It’s kinda like the reprobate who comes down front for the altar call and confesses to every sin in the book and then some and gets lots of attention from the amen corner and gets “saved” every time that he goes on another drunk. I think that mormons just enjoy the attention that a “good” testimony gets them. And all this hoorah about “it’s indescribable” is a lot of hokum. Full stop. And Ski, my malleus is in fine shape. And shall I translate malleus haereticorum for you? It means “Hammer of Heretics.”

Speaking of abacadabra, mr latin scholar, did you know that “hocus pocus” comes from “hoc est enim corpus meum”?