Where in CCC is God All-KNOWING?

[spauline]

I’m sorry, but after looking Ludwig Otts dogmas of God’s Omniscience, I can’t seem to find any of those clauses in the Modern CCC. Does the Church teach Ott’s assertions of omnisceince dogmatically or doesn’t it?

I’m thinking this may be the work of liberal bishops, seeing as omniscience implies in some sense predestination, of the elect by positive ordination, and of the damned by foreseen permission.

any help to find in the CCC an explicit statement of God’s All Knowingness?

 

[Damascus]

I’m sorry, but after looking Ludwig Otts dogmas of God’s Omniscience, I can’t seem to find any of those clauses in the Modern CCC. Does the Church teach Ott’s assertions of omnisceince dogmatically or doesn’t it?

I’m thinking this may be the work of liberal bishops, seeing as omniscience implies in some sense predestination, of the elect by positive ordination, and of the damned by foreseen permission.

any help to find in the CCC an explicit statement of God’s All Knowingness?

1037 shoots down predestination.

268,-74, 275-78 - omnipotence

Why would you ask if the Church teaches Otts assertations?

Who came first? Ott or the Church?

Ott does not make dogma.

Am I not understanding your post? Could you be more clear?

 

[spauline]

1037 shoots down predestination.

268,-74, 275-78 - omnipotence

Why would you ask if the Church teaches Otts assertations?

Who came first? Ott or the Church?

Ott does not make dogma.

Am I not understanding your post? Could you be more clear?

I didn’t mean to say that Ott trumps the Church, but let me go further:

the 200 paragraphs you cite don’t seem to explicitly confirm All-KNOWING, only all-powerful, or, I don’t know, maybe 271 suggests omniscience?:

271 God’s almighty power is in no way arbitrary: "In God, power, essence, will, intellect, wisdom, and justice are all identical. Nothing therefore can be in God’s power which could not be in his just will or his wise intellect."110

as for 1037, seeing as it cites Trent and Orange, isn’t it only condemning certain TYPES of pred to hell, such as Calvinism? After all, didn’t those councils at Orange and Trent confirm that God has FORESEEN and ALLOWED that some creatures will end in eternal ruin, that is, that at least he KNOWS from the foundation who will be saved and not? I’m not trying to go to Calvin, who was a monster, but Catholicism seems to admit that God has foreseen the future sins of the damned and has allowed that they will not make it? Was this not the teaching of the Church?

 

[spauline]

that is, it would seem to me that the CCC is not denying the previous dogmatic statements, but to condemn a positively ORDAINED pred to hell, such as Calvin’s God, who becomes a monster, saying, “This person will go to Hell no matter what they do or don’t do, even before I consider what they will do”, as opposed to the Church, which I had thought was, “I have foresene that this person will resist my Love and Grace despite everything I will do for him, and so I allow that this person will not make it, but precisely on the CONDITION of their foreseen sins”.

Or am I wrong, or is this stuff unsettled?

I just want to understand how to reconcile the statements of the CCC with what Ott discusses, amongst other things.

thank you in advance for any help you can give.

blessings!
scott

 

[Damascus]

that is, it would seem to me that the CCC is not denying the previous dogmatic statements, but to condemn a positively ORDAINED pred to hell, such as Calvin’s God, who becomes a monster, saying, “This person will go to Hell no matter what they do or don’t do, even before I consider what they will do”, as opposed to the Church, which I had thought was, “I have foresene that this person will resist my Love and Grace despite everything I will do for him, and so I allow that this person will not make it, but precisely on the CONDITION of their foreseen sins”.

Or am I wrong, or is this stuff unsettled?

I just want to understand how to reconcile the statements of the CCC with what Ott discusses, amongst other things.

thank you in advance for any help you can give.

blessings!
scott

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[spauline]

Hi, Damascus,

I got your response from the email. No, I do not doubt God’s Omniscience. That was why I asked why the CCC, at least from a cursory examination, seems to leave it out. After all, since God’s Intellect and Will are inseparably part of Him, how could He be all-powerful (His Will), but not all-knowing (His Intellect)?

I’m sorry, I should rephrase about Calvin, what he taught, at least apparently from an objective standpoint, was monstrous, but I think you are right, I cannot judge who he was subjectively. We hope he was saved despite his errors.

About pred, I would think that God has positively ordained every cooperation with grace in individuals and history, but that He has only foreseen and permitted sin, not positively willed it.

I will let you get sleep.

Blessings to you, may you go with God tonight and be held in Mary’s arms.

scott

 

[Damascus]

Hi Scott-

i am still scouring the CCC, No luck yet… I hope its in there…

This is certainly something I would think would be easier to find…

I’ll be back after another look, and thanks for the prayers! Back at ya!

 

[spauline]

my guess is it’s liberal bishops who don’t want to “offend” people by saying that God knows the future, because then someone would object, “Well if God knows even before a person exists that he will end up in hell, why does He create the person in the first place?”

 

[Genesis315]

Yeah, but that thinking could also be applied to omnipotent–that He could just save everyone.

I think omniscience is contained in omnipotence. The power to know everything must be possessed by an all powerful God. Plus, there is tons of stuff in the catechism about God’s plan, and that also implies an omniscience.

As an aside, I have a really short, modern (published in the last decade) catechism that expressly mentions omniscience.

 

[spauline]

Yeah, but that thinking could also be applied to omnipotent–that He could just save everyone.

I think omniscience is contained in omnipotence. The power to know everything must be possessed by an all powerful God. Plus, there is tons of stuff in the catechism about God’s plan, and that also implies an omniscience.

As an aside, I have a really short, modern (published in the last decade) catechism that expressly mentions omniscience.

yeah, but couldn’t liberals just argue that the “plan” is, “given the posssibilities of what they could do, I will try different things, depending on what they do,” instead of “I already know what they’re going to do and I know what is best to counteract it, and I know how the whole thing will work out”?

 

[spauline]

Yeah, but that thinking could also be applied to omnipotent–that He could just save everyone.

I don’t think so because man is free.

 

[Ghosty]

While not from the CCC, I highly recommend St. Thomas Aquinas’ treatment of God’s omniscience as it relates to “contingent effects”, i.e. things determined by free will and not by necessity.

It’s found in Article 13 of Question 14 in the First part of the Summa. In it he explains how omniscience does not interfere with the contingency of human acts, given God’s eternal perspective.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

that is, it would seem to me that the CCC is not denying the previous dogmatic statements, but to condemn a positively ORDAINED pred to hell, such as Calvin’s God, who becomes a monster, saying, “This person will go to Hell no matter what they do or don’t do, even before I consider what they will do”, as opposed to the Church, which I had thought was, “I have foresene that this person will resist my Love and Grace despite everything I will do for him, and so I allow that this person will not make it, but precisely on the CONDITION of their foreseen sins”.

Or am I wrong, or is this stuff unsettled?

I just want to understand how to reconcile the statements of the CCC with what Ott discusses, amongst other things.

thank you in advance for any help you can give.

blessings!
scott

**Calvin’s God is no more monstrous than that of St.Thomas **​

**What people always overlook, is that Calvin is perfectly clear that man is responsible for his actions. **

**Anyway: **

**"He does whatever he pleases"104 269 The Holy Scriptures repeatedly confess the universal power of God. He is called the “Mighty One of Jacob”, the “LORD of hosts”, the “strong and mighty” one. If God is almighty “in heaven and on earth”, it is because he made them.105 Nothing is impossible with God, who disposes his works according to his will.106 He is the Lord of the universe, whose order he established and which remains wholly subject to him and at his disposal. He is master of history, governing hearts and events in keeping with his will: "It is always in your power to show great strength, and who can withstand the strength of your arm?107 **

[My[/COLOR] emphasis] - to govern hearts, God cannot be anything but omniscient. Though, a paragraph specifying His attributes & unfolding some of their implications would have been nice. As to predestination - it is a NT doctrine. (Whether Calvin’s understanding of it as including reprobation in the sense in which he teaches reprobation is perfectly on all fours with the Biblical evidence is a separate issue) Calvin’s God has the great attraction of being accountable to no one - He is an absolute Ruler, from Whom there is no appeal. And He is also Good. ##

 

[spauline]

**Calvin’s God is no more monstrous than that of St.Thomas **​

**What people always overlook, is that Calvin is perfectly clear that man is responsible for his actions. **

**Anyway: **

**"He does whatever he pleases"104 269 The Holy Scriptures repeatedly confess the universal power of God. He is called the “Mighty One of Jacob”, the “LORD of hosts”, the “strong and mighty” one. If God is almighty “in heaven and on earth”, it is because he made them.105 Nothing is impossible with God, who disposes his works according to his will.106 He is the Lord of the universe, whose order he established and which remains wholly subject to him and at his disposal. He is master of history, governing hearts and events in keeping with his will: "It is always in your power to show great strength, and who can withstand the strength of your arm?**107

[My[/COLOR] emphasis] - to govern hearts, God cannot be anything but omniscient. Though, a paragraph specifying His attributes & unfolding some of their implications would have been nice. As to predestination - it is a NT doctrine. (Whether Calvin’s understanding of it as including reprobation in the sense in which he teaches reprobation is perfectly on all fours with the Biblical evidence is a separate issue) Calvin’s God has the great attraction of being accountable to no one - He is an absolute Ruler, from Whom there is no appeal. And He is also Good. ##

well, no, I’m not at all questioning predest. or omniscience as Catholicism understands it. and Ott is careful to draw the distinction between Catholic pred to Hell, and Calvin’s version. Calvin’s version was evidently, God simply says, “this person will be damned before I even consider what they are going to do” as opposed to the RCC which is, “I have foreseen and allowed that this person will not make it BASED ON THEIR FORESEEN SINS”.

But this is also my point, why are these terms so buried in the CCC. I would think that the CCC could just come and blurt Ott’s treatment of these things so as to silence, say, Open Theists, amongst other heresies, which would include ultra-liberal theologians who teach at Catholic colleges that God doesn’t know the future.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

As to predestination - it is a NT doctrine. (Whether Calvin’s understanding of it as including reprobation in the sense in which he teaches reprobation is perfectly on all fours with the Biblical evidence is a separate issue) Calvin’s God has the great attraction of being accountable to no one - He is an absolute Ruler, from Whom there is no appeal. And He is also Good.

Then why does God often ask people to hold him accountable to his word?

For example…
Malachi 3:10:

Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.

Sounds very much like God is demanding that people hold him accountable to his word.

In fact, how many times do the Scriptures say to trust the Lord?

How can God ask us to trust him, and even punish us when we do not trust him, if he isn’t expecting us to believe him?
Psalm 19:7:

The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul. The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple.

And again…
Psalm 84:12:

O LORD Almighty, blessed is the man who trusts in you.

To be honest, there’s just too many Scriptural passages to quote where people are blessed for trusting him and not blessed for not trusting him. The Scriptures overwhelmingly portray the Lord as one who demands we trust him and that we call upon his promises-- because he’s trustworthy.

God holds himself accountable to his own word whether we trust him or not.
Hebrews 6:13:

When God made his promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for him to swear by, he swore by himself, saying, “I will surely bless you and give you many descendants.”

 

[Todd_Easton]

any help to find in the CCC an explicit statement of God’s All Knowingness?

I think, as a previous poster mentioned, paragraph 271 of the CCC implies that God is all-knowing.

Paragraphs 208 and 1781 both quote 1 John 3:20, which says, “…God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.”

 

[spauline]

I think, as a previous poster mentioned, paragraph 271 of the CCC implies that God is all-knowing.

I was that poster! Well, OK, so maybe we’re thinking along similar lines. and thank you for 208 and 1781. But I still think they could be a little clearer on this. several sections on omnipotence alone, but nothing blatantly about and subheades as ominiscient.

Paragraphs 208 and 1781 both quote 1 John 3:20, which says, “…God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.”

 

[thistle]

I was that poster! Well, OK, so maybe we’re thinking along similar lines. and thank you for 208 and 1781. But I still think they could be a little clearer on this. several sections on omnipotence alone, but nothing blatantly about and subheades as ominiscient.

How much clearer do you want “he knows everything” to be?

 

[Damascus]

I was that poster! Well, OK, so maybe we’re thinking along similar lines. and thank you for 208 and 1781. But I still think they could be a little clearer on this. several sections on omnipotence alone, but nothing blatantly about and subheades as ominiscient.

Post number 2 (mine) includes the CCC citation…

I guess Its not important but, I tried.

 

[Mommyof02green]

CCC 2115 states: “God can reveal the future to his prophets or to other saints”

In order to reveal the future God would have to be omniscient, right?

I found paragraph 2115 by looking in the index of the CCC.
Under God is the sub heading God the Almighty. Under the sub-heading “God the Almighty” is the sub heading "God can reveal the future.”

God IS OMNIPRESENCE: Always there and is everywhere
God IS OMISCIENT: know everything past, present, and future.
God IS OMNIPOTENCE: All-powerful

Spauline, I’m sure you realize that the word “OMNIPRESENCE” is not listed in the CCC index either. Therefore, the CCC must on teach that either right? No, the CCC does teach about God’s OMNIPRESENCE. I can reference CCC paragraphs if needed. Just let me know.

What is more important the use of the word “Omniscient” or describing the attributes, the meaning of the word? The word “Omniscient” means All-knowing. I have shown that the CCC clearly talks about God knowing the future. Other here have shown that the CCC clearly talks about God being All-knowing.

Knowing the future and being All knowing are attributes to being “omniscient”. So the CCC does teach that God is “omniscient”.

I know that it’s not the CCC but Catholic Encyclopedia does talk about God Nature. Catholic Encyclopedia does talk about God’s omnipresence, omniscient, and omnipotence. The Nature and Attributes of God