D
distracted
Guest
maybe that last thing u say is why i always cringed when i heard the term “personal relat w/ Jesus”
sometihng about it just never sounded right…
i guess i often equated personal w/ Selfish!!!
Where in scripture does it state "to accept Christ as our personal Lord and Savior"?"
- Status
maybe that last thing u say is why i always cringed when i heard the term “personal relat w/ Jesus”
sometihng about it just never sounded right…
i guess i often equated personal w/ Selfish!!!
B
brb3
Guest
I was referring to the Tribes of Israel … which are now encompased within the Kingdom of God … which has come to Earth via Christ and his Church.
IMO, the Protestants compose some of the 12 Tribes which have rebelled and left the Catholic Church. Just as David was able to reunite the 12 Tribes of Israel … Christ will also do the same. Our recent Popes believe this as well … and have called for ALL Catholics to work to promote Ecumenism with our schismatic Protestant brethren.
D
distracted
Guest
i heard he is so into ecumenism that he thnks all religions are the same in value… that all of them lead to Heaven… which is of course, NOT biblical…
and not what the Church has always taught… I was going to investigate this futher but haven’t had much extra time… i wish i could read one of his books… but don’t want to BUY one if it is not orthodox…
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PJM
Guest
Friend; it’s the First Commanment
Exo. 20:1 "And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. "You shall have no other gods before me.” "You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; "
MARK 12: "29-30 "Jesus answered, “The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.”
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brb3
Guest
Are you talking of Pope Benedict ?
A
Alan55
Guest
The phrase “personal relationship with Jesus” is not to be found in the bible, to answer your direct question.
Many have stated that the idea behind the phrase can be found throughout the New Testament, which is true in the sense that anyone who accepts Christ enters into a relationship with Jesus that is real and personal. Howevever, there is a catch.
In evangelical churches, where the phrase is tossed about often and enthusiastically, “personal relationship” means several things that go beyond the plain meaning of the words.
First, a “personal relationship” is contrasted with the “impersonal relationship” that you have by simply joining a church and participating in its religious services, especially if that church is liturgical. How could you possibly have a personal relationship if that relationship is mediated by priests and ceremonies? A personal relationship requires interacting directly with God – cut out the clerical middle-men! So, you don’t use standard prayers, you don’t pray to saints, you don’t confess sins to a priest – you go directly to Christ, just as you are, with your own words. Your interaction with God must be informal and direct, not formal, ceremonial, and indirect. Of course, what evangelicals tend to ignore (or dismiss) is the possibility that Catholic Christians do have a fervent, loving, passionate relationship with Jesus precisely in and through the liturgy, as well as in personal prayer, active service, etc. (They also tend to ignore or dismiss the fact that there are evangelicals who have prayed the Sinner’s prayer, wept tears at the altar, professed faith in Jesus, been baptized, and then gone through the motions with church attendance for many years without having a real relationship with Jesus Christ.) They preach on the distinction between “Christianity” and “churchianity” as if “Church” is a dirty word. The fact is that there is no necessary opposition between church and Christ. What do they think they’re doing on a Sunday morning anyway?
Second, “personal relationship” implies a one-on-one relationship with God. This is a crucial difference between Catholicism and Protestantism in my view. Catholic teaching emphasizes that we are part of a people, a Church, a family, a community. We do not preach “me and Jesus” but emphasize that our faith and our actions are those of people in community.
Finally, there is a ceremonial aspect of “personal relationship” that is not taught directly but strictly adhered to. That is, if you were baptized as an infant and grew up in the Church, you still need to profess faith as an adult and be re-baptized. It doesn’t matter how many times you’ve professed your faith on Holy Saturday and been sprinkled with water in renewing your faith, you don’t have that personal relationship with Jesus until, sometime after you are old enough to decide for yourself. You need to make a decision to follow Jesus and invite him into your heart. Better yet, you should be baptized (after, and not before).
That disqualifies any life-long Catholic from having a “personal relationship” with Jesus, because, according to evangelicals, the starting point for that relationship is inviting Jesus into your heart as Lord and Savior, and infants can’t do that. “Believe and be baptized” defines the order in which profession of faith and water baptism are to be done. I must admit that that a deviation from this – baptizing first then personal belief following – are unacceptable.
So, don’t be fooled by the simple slogan. Catholics cannot have a personal relationship with Jesus. I guess Episcopalians and even Lutherans are in the same boat, even though they think of themselves as Protestants.
I know from long, sad, oft-repeated experience, that no matter how fervently you express your love for Christ, once your evangelical friend finds out you are a Catholic, they will believe that you still lack a “personal relationship with Jesus.” They will ask you to pray the Sinner’s Prayer, but even then it won’t stop until you leave the Catholic Church, get re-baptized, and attend an evangelical church. THAT’S what is meant by having a personal relationship with Jesus and being saved. No exaggeration.
Many have stated that the idea behind the phrase can be found throughout the New Testament, which is true in the sense that anyone who accepts Christ enters into a relationship with Jesus that is real and personal. Howevever, there is a catch.
In evangelical churches, where the phrase is tossed about often and enthusiastically, “personal relationship” means several things that go beyond the plain meaning of the words.
First, a “personal relationship” is contrasted with the “impersonal relationship” that you have by simply joining a church and participating in its religious services, especially if that church is liturgical. How could you possibly have a personal relationship if that relationship is mediated by priests and ceremonies? A personal relationship requires interacting directly with God – cut out the clerical middle-men! So, you don’t use standard prayers, you don’t pray to saints, you don’t confess sins to a priest – you go directly to Christ, just as you are, with your own words. Your interaction with God must be informal and direct, not formal, ceremonial, and indirect. Of course, what evangelicals tend to ignore (or dismiss) is the possibility that Catholic Christians do have a fervent, loving, passionate relationship with Jesus precisely in and through the liturgy, as well as in personal prayer, active service, etc. (They also tend to ignore or dismiss the fact that there are evangelicals who have prayed the Sinner’s prayer, wept tears at the altar, professed faith in Jesus, been baptized, and then gone through the motions with church attendance for many years without having a real relationship with Jesus Christ.) They preach on the distinction between “Christianity” and “churchianity” as if “Church” is a dirty word. The fact is that there is no necessary opposition between church and Christ. What do they think they’re doing on a Sunday morning anyway?
Second, “personal relationship” implies a one-on-one relationship with God. This is a crucial difference between Catholicism and Protestantism in my view. Catholic teaching emphasizes that we are part of a people, a Church, a family, a community. We do not preach “me and Jesus” but emphasize that our faith and our actions are those of people in community.
Finally, there is a ceremonial aspect of “personal relationship” that is not taught directly but strictly adhered to. That is, if you were baptized as an infant and grew up in the Church, you still need to profess faith as an adult and be re-baptized. It doesn’t matter how many times you’ve professed your faith on Holy Saturday and been sprinkled with water in renewing your faith, you don’t have that personal relationship with Jesus until, sometime after you are old enough to decide for yourself. You need to make a decision to follow Jesus and invite him into your heart. Better yet, you should be baptized (after, and not before).
That disqualifies any life-long Catholic from having a “personal relationship” with Jesus, because, according to evangelicals, the starting point for that relationship is inviting Jesus into your heart as Lord and Savior, and infants can’t do that. “Believe and be baptized” defines the order in which profession of faith and water baptism are to be done. I must admit that that a deviation from this – baptizing first then personal belief following – are unacceptable.
So, don’t be fooled by the simple slogan. Catholics cannot have a personal relationship with Jesus. I guess Episcopalians and even Lutherans are in the same boat, even though they think of themselves as Protestants.
I know from long, sad, oft-repeated experience, that no matter how fervently you express your love for Christ, once your evangelical friend finds out you are a Catholic, they will believe that you still lack a “personal relationship with Jesus.” They will ask you to pray the Sinner’s Prayer, but even then it won’t stop until you leave the Catholic Church, get re-baptized, and attend an evangelical church. THAT’S what is meant by having a personal relationship with Jesus and being saved. No exaggeration.
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brb3
Guest
Exactly ! The word Trinity isn’t in the Bible … yet it is taught repeatedly. Same for ‘personal’ friendship with God, via Christ our Lord, - thru H.S.
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
Evangelicals, Protestants and non-Denoms love using the word “personal” because its their way of denying the Church. Because you have a “personal relationship” with Jesus Christ, you do not need the Church, or organized religion. I detest the term. Not to say that we Catholics do not have a personal relationship with Christ, but our relationship with Christ is much more than just “personal”.
We have a relationship with Christ through the Church, and we have a relationship with the Church which is each other. We make up the Church. Christ does not say He will become one with us on a personal level, Christ said he will become one with His Church. So unless we are part of His Church, we cannot hope to be one with Him.
This is the Protestant concept of their relationship with Christ
http://achristiancounselor.com/hug1.jpg
This is the Catholic (and Orthodox) concept of our relationship with Christ. Church Triumphant!
http://www.newbyzantines.net/epiphany/images/all_saints01.jpg
We have a relationship with Christ through the Church, and we have a relationship with the Church which is each other. We make up the Church. Christ does not say He will become one with us on a personal level, Christ said he will become one with His Church. So unless we are part of His Church, we cannot hope to be one with Him.
This is the Protestant concept of their relationship with Christ
http://achristiancounselor.com/hug1.jpg
This is the Catholic (and Orthodox) concept of our relationship with Christ. Church Triumphant!
http://www.newbyzantines.net/epiphany/images/all_saints01.jpg
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brb3
Guest
Both pictorials are applicable & necessary !
Recall Christ cried when told Lazarus had died. Christ had a ‘personal’ relationship with all his Apostles, and Mother / Father. John was called the ‘beloved’ disciple. We too are his ‘beloved’ disciples, and considered his brothers/sisters.
We are to love the Lord first, and our fellowman ‘as ourselves’. Christianity is all about TEAMWORK. The 12 learned together as a team, and then were sent out 2 by 2 … always led by Christ’s H.S. It is thru the Church that we learn TEAMWORK and discipline.
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
The difference about Catholics and these Evangelical Protestants is that for Catholics, our Personal Relationship with Christ is indistinguishable with our relationship with the entire Church. Christ told us that what we do to the least of our bretheren, we do unto Him. So loving our bretheren is the same as loving God, and loving God is helping the least of our bretheren. There is no distinction, it goes hand in hand.
When we receive Jesus in the Eucharist, we don’t receive Him just for ourselves. The Eucharist not only binds us to Christ, we are also bound to His Church, which means we are binded to everyone in Communion with Christ through the Eucharist.
So its really hard for a Catholic to say that he or she has a personal relationship with Christ, because being part of the True Church of Christ, our relationship with God and with one another are intertwined and indistinguishable.
C
colmcille1
Guest
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losh14
Guest
I think it’s partly the spiritual war we’re all undergoing. Many of the Catholics I know seem weary, though very much alive. It is difficult to often be attacked for theology from our Christian brethren and attacked for lacking a progressive morality from our secular neighbors.
I think it’s also your personal experience. As I talk with other Catholics I find that I had a lot of advantage in having really excellent role models in my life - priests, catechetical ministers, and belonging to parishes that were really vibrant.
If you’re in the middle of nowhere, there may not be much of a Catholic presence, so you may not see the work that is done. In St. Louis, the Catholic charitable presence is very easy to spot. The St. Patrick center takes care for 9,000 homeless persons, and is actually the largest homeless care provider in the State. St. Martha’s Hall is a shelter for women at risk of domestic abuse. Our Lady’s Inn is a maternity home and source of help for women considering abortion. The Queen of Peace Center is a drug rehab home. A number of parishes offer bread lines and soup kitchens, whether on a continual or rotating basis (ie, open up one night a week because the parish is small and that’s the only time they can get enough volunteers). Not to mention that the diocese here is the largest single provider of education. All of these are either run by the diocese or organizations that adhere to Catholic spirituality and mission.
If you look for the Catholic presence in the world, you’ll find it, even if it’s not immediately where you are.
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distracted
Guest
i’ve heard it more about JP II but some accuse Pope B of the same… and their arguments (so far) are fairly convincing…
D
distracted
Guest
amazing… that you say all this and we still don’t (or i don’t) know exactly where YOU yourself are coming from about it all… I mean, there for awhile, in the begining of your post you sounded unCatholic yourself…
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distracted
Guest
thanks, i am moving to your parish…
D
distracted
Guest
doesn’t Missouri have a Ctholic governor? used to…
I
inocente
Guest
I think it means that Christ died on the Cross for -]me/-] you.
D
distracted
Guest
i have noticed that a lot of protestants paraphrase the Bible a LOT… and to the point of it meaning something entirely differently than intended… I think Joel Olsteen is one of the worst offenders in this… 
strange since they claim to adhere to the Word … and claim to adhere to it FAR better than Catholics who - according to them… invent stuff like Purgatory and indlulgences and etc… (the Church did not “invent” Purgatory… The concept is in Scripture, but even if it weren’t, the Catholic Church doesn’t just willy-nilly invent doctrines…)
anyhow… just strange how the pot is always calling the supposed kettle black…
strange since they claim to adhere to the Word … and claim to adhere to it FAR better than Catholics who - according to them… invent stuff like Purgatory and indlulgences and etc… (the Church did not “invent” Purgatory… The concept is in Scripture, but even if it weren’t, the Catholic Church doesn’t just willy-nilly invent doctrines…)
anyhow… just strange how the pot is always calling the supposed kettle black…
I
inocente
Guest
distracted, just in case that was for me :slapfight: = 
- Status