Where in the GIRM does it allow for ad orientem?

[jwinch2]

What you state here is exactly why I feel so much more connected when the priest is facing in the same direction as I am rather than opposite me.
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Interesting. I guess its good that there isn’t only one way to do it then. That way people who feel strongly about the liturgy can seek out parishes which correspond to what speaks to them in the Mass.

Peace,

 

[archangel04]

I couldn’t disagree more. We the faithful are the body of Christ through our adoption by the Father and we the faithful are the Church of Christ. God is in all of us through the gift of the Holy Spirit given in Baptism and Confirmation, he is in the Priest who is acting in the person of Christ during the Liturgy, and he is in the Eucharist in the form of the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ following the consecration. “For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them” (Matthew 18:20). Why look somewhere else for God, when he is right there in the room, with us? He might be coming from the East when he returns but he is right there with us now, every time the Mass is said.

I admit wholeheartedly that there are far too many liturgical abuses out there. However, that can easily be fixed without altering the nature of the Mass. All the Holy See has to do is to tighten up the instructions for Mass to allow less wiggle room in terms of music, etc. and that will eliminate the vast majority of the problems. We have a tendency in the Western world to throw the baby out with the bath water rather than to make small adjustments to get things on track. I am hopeful that the implementation of the new Roman Missal coming this advent will help to facilitate this process. Our Diocese is mandating standardized music for the first year following its implementation which I think is a good idea.

Well you can disagree all you wan’t thats your right, but the ad orientem makes more sence at mass. Mass insn’t just some prayer group gathered in the circl. We truly become on community through Christ body (the Eucharist). If the priest leads our prayers towards God, why should he not be facing the same direction as we would? The mass is not a “show”, and when a person face us, naturally we pay attention to him, but the Church states that the Altar of sacrifice should be the center of attention, how can this be done when you have a person speaking before you?

 

[archangel04]

You may have a point there. One Christmas Midnight Mass our pastor said the English Mass ad orientem. He got so many complaints about it that he asked himself, “What’s the point?” So the following year he replaced the same Mass with the EF, no worries about what the GIRM requires.

Lol good for him!

 

[archangel04]

During the Mass, particularly in the consecration, the Priest is acting in the person of Christ Himself. Why would I not want to be focused on Christ? Having said that, **I go out of my way to focus on the Eucharist during the whole consecration. I watch to see the manner in which it is being treated, handled with reverence, and the manner in which the Priest, Deacons, and alter servers interact and perform their responsibilities during the Liturgy. **But, mostly, I am fixated on the Eucharist. All of this helps me greatly to believe in and celebrate the real presence of Christ in the Body and Blood. When the Priest is facing away from me, I cannot see the Eucharist other than select moments when the celebrant holds it up in the air. Hard to focus on the Eucharist when you can’t see it.

I will readily admit there are things would could be improved in the OF of the Mass from the music, abuses, lousy homilies, etc. Heck, I would even be just fine with bringing back alter rails! But the celebrant facing away to me, brings nothing and actually detracts from the liturgy.

In what I bolded how can you concentrate on the mass when you are worried how how the concecration is being done properly or not? Another disadvantage about priest facing the people is that many have to put on a “character”. So many times I’ve heard people complain that the priest looks to serious up there, or he does not smile enough, or he doesn’t take his jod serious and is always joking around.

 

[jwinch2]

Well you can disagree all you wan’t thats your right, but the ad orientem makes more sence at mass.

Not to me it doesn’t.

Mass insn’t just some prayer group gathered in the circl. We truly become on community through Christ body (the Eucharist).

I am well aware of what Mass is.

If the priest leads our prayers towards God, why should he not be facing the same direction as we would? The mass is not a “show”, and when a person face us, naturally we pay attention to him, but the Church states that the Altar of sacrifice should be the center of attention, how can this be done when you have a person speaking before you?

How can you see the Altar if the celebrant is standing in front of it? Why should we not be facing the priest who is acting in the person of Christ? Why should the priest who is acting in the person of Christ not face us, the laity, who through the gift of the Holy Spirit make up the body of Christ and His visible Church on earth? As I have already stated, God is already in the room in the priest, the faithful, and the Eucharist. There is no need to face another direction in order to find Him. There is no need for the celebrant to be facing away from the faithful to carry our prayers to God. God is everywhere. He is in each one of us and all around us.

We disagree, that is plain to see. However, don’t minimize my views just because it isn’t what you prefer.

As I have stated, it is quite obvious that having the celebrant facing the laity is a perfectly acceptable form of the Mass as is having him face away. I am more than willing to admit there are other things that I would not be up in arms about changing but this is not one of them.

 

[Brendan]

How can you see the Altar if the celebrant is standing in front of it? Why should we not be facing the priest who is acting in the person of Christ? Why should the priest who is acting in the person of Christ not face us, the laity, who through the gift of the Holy Spirit make up the body of Christ and His visible Church on earth?

I would suggest that you read Pope Benedict’s Book “The Spirit of the Liturgy”. In that book, Pope Benedict discusses the theology of the Mass and has an entire chapter on why the ad orientum position is the more theologically correct position for the priest.

Basically, the priest, when facing the same direction as us, is leading us towards the Dawn of the New Light of Christ. He is acting as the Good Shepherd, leading the flock towards the Father. We are a pilgrim Church, on a journey towards are telelogical end, and Christ, in the person of the priest is leading us. The priest, facing us, is a closed and stagnant journey.

I presume that we can all agree that the Pope’s understanding of the theology of the Mass would be superior to our own, and that we should make efforts to understand and accept instruction from him on this matter?

As an additional resource , one of the local priests here in Detroit ( who studied in Rome and was ordained to the priesthood by Pope John Paul II) discusses the book in a series of popcasts.

frjohnriccardo.libsyn.com/index.php?search=spirit+of+the+liturgy&Submit=Search

 

[jwinch2]

I would suggest that you read Pope Benedict’s Book “The Spirit of the Liturgy”. In that book, Pope Benedict discusses the theology of the Mass and has an entire chapter on why the ad orientum position is the more theologically correct position for the priest.

Basically, the priest, when facing the same direction as us, is leading us towards the Dawn of the New Light of Christ. He is acting as the Good Shepherd, leading the flock towards the Father. We are a pilgrim Church, on a journey towards are telelogical end, and Christ, in the person of the priest is leading us. The priest, facing us, is a closed and stagnant journey.

I presume that we can all agree that the Pope’s understanding of the theology of the Mass would be superior to our own, and that we should make efforts to understand and accept instruction from him on this matter?

As an additional resource , one of the local priests here in Detroit ( who studied in Rome and was ordained to the priesthood by Pope John Paul II) discusses the book in a series of popcasts.

frjohnriccardo.libsyn.com/index.php?search=spirit+of+the+liturgy&Submit=Search

Thanks. I’ll listen to the podcasts.

 

[jwinch2]

In what I bolded how can you concentrate on the mass when you are worried how how the concecration is being done properly or not? Another disadvantage about priest facing the people is that many have to put on a “character”. So many times I’ve heard people complain that the priest looks to serious up there, or he does not smile enough, or he doesn’t take his jod serious and is always joking around.

I’m not worrying about whether or not the celebrant is doing the consecration properly. I trust the priest. I am paying attention to what he is doing to better understand the mystery of the Eucharist. I am not there “judging” the priest. I am observing the transformation of bread and wine into my Lord and Savior.

 

[Brendan]

Here is an excerpt from “The Spirit of the Liturgy” by Pope Benedict

Turn to the East is essential

On the other hand, a common turning to the East during the Eucharistic Prayer remains essential. This is not a case of accidentals, but of essentials. Looking at the priest has no importance. What matters is looking together at the Lord. It is not now a question of dialogue, but of common worship, of setting off towards the One who is to come. What corresponds with the reality of what is happening is not the closed circle, but the common movement forward expressed in a common direction for prayer…

… see a solution to this in a suggestion I noted at the beginning in connection with the insights of Erik Peterson. Facing toward the East, as we heard, was linked with the “sign of the Son of Man”, with the Cross, which announces Our Lord’s Second Coming. That is why, very early on, the East was linked with the sign of the cross. Where a direct common turning toward the East is not possible, the cross can serve as the interior “East” of faith. It should stand in the middle of the altar and be the common point of focus for both priest and praying community.

In this way we obey the ancient call to prayer: Conversi ad Dominum, “Turn to the Lord!” In this way we look together at the One whose Death tore the veil of the Temple – the One who stands before the Father for us and encloses us in His arms in order to make us the new and living Temple.

 

[jwinch2]

Here is an excerpt from “The Spirit of the Liturgy” by Pope Benedict

Thanks. Hard to explain all the pictures of the Holy Father facing the other way if it is so essential to face away…

 

[Brendan]

Thanks. Hard to explain all the pictures of the Holy Father facing the other way if it is so essential to face away…

Not hard at all. There is the preferred way of doing something, and an alternate way of doing something that is permitted.

The Holy Father did a wonderful job of articulating how ad orientum is the most theologically correct way of celebrating Mass.

But that does not mean that verus populum is not permitted.

It is in essential, in that the essence ( in the Thomistic sense) of the Mass is to look at the Lord. It is better to say Mass with the accidental property of direction being the same for all. That is what the Pope is trying to accomplish.

 

[TheMc]

Not hard at all. There is the preferred way of doing something, and an alternate way of doing something that is permitted.

The Holy Father did a wonderful job of articulating how ad orientum is the most theologically correct way of celebrating Mass.

But that does not mean that verus populum is not permitted.

It is in essential, in that the essence ( in the Thomistic sense) of the Mass is to look at the Lord. It is better to say Mass with the accidental property of direction being the same for all. That is what the Pope is trying to accomplish.

Very well stated.

 

[archangel04]

Not to me it doesn’t.

I am well aware of what Mass is.

How can you see the Altar if the celebrant is standing in front of it? Why should we not be facing the priest who is acting in the person of Christ? Why should the priest who is acting in the person of Christ not face us, the laity, who through the gift of the Holy Spirit make up the body of Christ and His visible Church on earth? As I have already stated, God is already in the room in the priest, the faithful, and the Eucharist. There is no need to face another direction in order to find Him. There is no need for the celebrant to be facing away from the faithful to carry our prayers to God. God is everywhere. He is in each one of us and all around us.

We disagree, that is plain to see. **However, don’t minimize my views just because it isn’t what you prefer. **
As I have stated, it is quite obvious that having the celebrant facing the laity is a perfectly acceptable form of the Mass as is having him face away. I am more than willing to admit there are other things that I would not be up in arms about changing but this is not one of them.

I’ve never seen a priest big enough to block the entire altar.
i am no minimizing your views, in fact re-read what you’ve posted and it’s exactly what you have done.

 

[TheMc]

But the celebrant facing away to me, brings nothing and actually detracts from the liturgy.

Two things to note from this.

1. It does not detract from the liturgy. Once you realize that the liturgy is about worshiping God, you’ll realize that.
2. He’s not facing his back to you. He’s praying with and for you, and everything he does, including the direction he is facing, should show that. “Facing his back to me” and “praying with and for me” are two very different things.

How can you see the Altar if the celebrant is standing in front of it? Why should we not be facing the priest who is acting in the person of Christ? Why should the priest who is acting in the person of Christ not face us, the laity, who through the gift of the Holy Spirit make up the body of Christ and His visible Church on earth? As I have already stated, God is already in the room in the priest, the faithful, and the Eucharist. There is no need to face another direction in order to find Him. There is no need for the celebrant to be facing away from the faithful to carry our prayers to God. God is everywhere. He is in each one of us and all around us.

As I have stated, it is quite obvious that having the celebrant facing the laity is a perfectly acceptable form of the Mass as is having him face away. I am more than willing to admit there are other things that I would not be up in arms about changing but this is not one of them.

If you have a problem with ad orientem, take it up with the pope. He has said clearly it is the best way.

 

[jwinch2]

Two things to note from this.

1. It does not detract from the liturgy. Once you realize that the liturgy is about worshiping God, you’ll realize that.
2. He’s not facing his back to you. He’s praying with and for you, and everything he does, including the direction he is facing, should show that. “Facing his back to me” and “praying with and for me” are two very different things.

If you have a problem with ad orientem, take it up with the pope. He has said clearly it is the best way.

I fully realize the liturgy is about worshiping God. As for the rest, I feel quite confident that the priest can pray with and for me regardless of the direction he is facing. And I happen to prefer him facing towards me during the Mass. If the Pope should wish to eliminate the option for this to happen it is entirely within his power to do so. However he has not and he has been seen to celebrate the Mass himself in such a fashion on many many occasions as did Blessed John Paul II before him. If the guidelines for celebrating the Mass should change and that becomes no longer an option, I will accept it as I do my best to accept all other teaching of the Church. However, that is currently not the situation.

 

[TheMc]

I fully realize the liturgy is about worshiping God. As for the rest, I feel quite confident that the priest can pray with and for me regardless of the direction he is facing

Actually, every priest that I’ve talked to (who is a serious priest who cares about the church and her liturgy), including at least one bishop, has found it easier to pray celebrating ad orientem, because it physicllu shows the spiritual reality. And don’t forget the human side. When you are standing in a prominent place talking towards a large group of people, it is very easy to get in to the “entertainer” or at least “keynote speaker” attitude.

 

[archangel04]

Actually, every priest that I’ve talked to (who is a serious priest who cares about the church and her liturgy), including at least one bishop, has found it easier to pray celebrating ad orientem, because it physicllu shows the spiritual reality. And don’t forget the human side. When you are standing in a prominent place talking towards a large group of people, it is very easy to get in to the “entertainer” or at least “keynote speaker” attitude.

One priest told me that he does it because it bring him so much humiliy, to remove his person and allow Christ to lead the mass, is what he told me.

 

[jwinch2]

Actually, every priest that I’ve talked to (who is a serious priest who cares about the church and her liturgy)…

Who decides whether the priest is serious and caring or not? You? So by that standard if they prefer to face towards the faithful they are not serious and do not care about the church or her liturgy? I don’t want to put words in your mouth here but that is really how that statement came across to me.

I have asked multiple priests about this myself and I have gotten a mixed bag with some claiming they prefer one and some preferring the other. I haven’t asked our Bishop which he prefers but I will be seeing him in about a week and a half so I will certainly bring it up. I will be quite curious to hear his thoughts on the matter.

 

[TheMc]

One priest told me that he does it because it bring him so much humiliy, to remove his person and allow Christ to lead the mass, is what he told me.

Odd. It seems to me that would be a reason not to face the people.

 

[archangel04]

Odd. It seems to me that would be a reason not to face the people.

Lol no I meant he faces ad orientem, he says this way he does not have to put a show to keep people awake or make them stay at mass until the final blessing, he let’s God do the work. Sorry I did not make myself clear.