Where is Eden?

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Wow, so an agnostic got the topic back on track. Come on guys. 😛

This topic isn’t meant to discuss the historical validity of Adam and Eve, or their being our first parents, two people, historical. Now, yes, this is an infallible teaching of the Church, both in the two papal encyclicals ruben20 cited (which are infallible), and the Catechism, and this topic assumes the historical validity of Eden and Adam and Eve. But the true purpose of this is the nature and location of Eden, so if we could please get back to it.

To further the topic about the rivers: I found it interesting that in Genesis, there is one river running through Eden which is unnamed. Once it leaves Eden, it diverges into the four listed, which essentially formed the borders of the world as they would have known it at the time. This to me seems more figurative, an allegory for the world deriving from Eden, than evidence of a geographical location, but that is more of an opinion I would like discussed.
 
rben20 said:
JackQ,

This is not my own opinion. I have shown you the authoritative documents. It is your opinion that is opposed to the tradition of the Church. It is opposed to two Popes who have already commented on your belief and how it is in opposition. That’s the point I am trying to get across to but you seem to ignore it. There is no “punch line” as I never said you denied original sin but it’s clear you want to accept multiple parents for whatever reason. I am not going to get side tracked by your heretic argument if you can’t even respond to mine. I was trying to help you but if you wish to run in circles then I am done. Others have already accepted the Popes teachings on this matter. Maybe you will too. That’s what is truly critical.
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Well, you keep changing your mind. Is Humani Generis infallible or isn’t it? You’ve already said that you have difficulty discerning what is infallible teaching and what isn’t. Now you say that my opinion (actually, what you perceive to be my opinion–more on that in a moment) is opposed to the tradition of the Church because of what is contained in Humani Generis (and another papal writing, apparently, since you mention two Popes). Far from ignoring your point, I have asked you to elucidate your opinion on papal writings by asking you to comment on the authoritative status of Exsurge Domini wherein a Pope stated that those who shelter heretics should have their lands confiscated, and that it is error to suggest that burning heretics is against the will of God.

This last point is important, because you say Catholics are bound to accept an historical Adam and Eve because of what was said in Humani Generis. If such is the case, then explain why Exsurge Domini is not entitled to the same status. It boils down to this: If saying there was not a literal Adam and Eve is heresy because of Humani Generis, then it must also be heresy to say that it is not God’s will that we burn heretics because of Exsurge Domini. This is especially true since Humani Generis was an encyclical and Humani Generis was a papal bull. Historically, a papal bull has been a more solemn instrument than an encyclical. For example, the papal declarations of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption were issued as bulls.

Do you believe in freedom of religion and freedom of speech? Well, if you do, then you might be a heretic if every word of every papal encyclical is binding. Quanta Cura condemned the idea that “‘liberty of conscience and worship is each man’s personal right, which ought to be legally proclaimed and asserted in every rightly constituted society; and that a right resides in the citizens to an absolute liberty, which should be restrained by no authority whether ecclesiastical or civil, whereby they may be able openly and publicly to manifest and declare any of their ideas whatever, either by word of mouth, by the press, or in any other way.’” But this contradicts Dignitatis Humanae, a document of Vatican II, and, hence, undeniably infallible, which affirms the liberty of conscience and worship for each person.

Now my actual opinion, for what it’s worth, is simply that Catholics are not dogmatically bound to believe in a literal Adam and Eve. It is not that there were multiple parents, because I actually don’t know if that is the case. And it’s quite all right with me if you do believe in a literal Adam and Eve. But it’s not all right with me if you thunder heresy charges at those who do not, because (1) you have no authority to do that, and (2) you are apparently unable to defend your position with reasoned argument.
 
scameter18 said:
Wow, so an agnostic got the topic back on track. Come on guys. 😛

This topic isn’t meant to discuss the historical validity of Adam and Eve, or their being our first parents, two people, historical. Now, yes, this is an infallible teaching of the Church, both in the two papal encyclicals ruben20 cited (which are infallible), and the Catechism, and this topic assumes the historical validity of Eden and Adam and Eve. But the true purpose of this is the nature and location of Eden, so if we could please get back to it.

To further the topic about the rivers: I found it interesting that in Genesis, there is one river running through Eden which is unnamed. Once it leaves Eden, it diverges into the four listed, which essentially formed the borders of the world as they would have known it at the time. This to me seems more figurative, an allegory for the world deriving from Eden, than evidence of a geographical location, but that is more of an opinion I would like discussed.
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So, you’d like us to break off the conversation about a literal Adam and Eve, but you’d like to get in one last word about it? Moreover, you assert that a literal Adam and Eve is an infallible teaching of the Church? And that’s it, we’re supposed to move on, because you’ve decreed on the issue?

Not so easy, my friend. Please see my argument above. I deny categorically that a literal Adam and Eve is an infallible dogma of the Church.
 
The Garden of Eden has vanished they say
But I know the lie of it still
Just turn to the left at the bridge of Finea
And stop when halfway to Cootehill.
'Tis there I will find it I know sure enough
When fortune has come to my call,
Oh the grass it is green around Ballyjamesduff
And the blue sky is over it all
 
JackQ, I was not “getting in the last word”. This is my topic. I was addressing the issue by simply reiterating what I stated as a perameter of this topic when I first started it: the historical validity of Adam and Eve is to be assumed. If you disagree, fine; if you want to discuss it, do it in another topic. This is about Eden, not Adam and Eve. I appreciate your imput, and I very much welcome you to continue posting in my topic. This message is not intended to be judicious. I would just like to continue discussing the original topic here, instead of verging off away from it. Thank you.
 
scameter18 said:
JackQ, I was not “getting in the last word”. This is my topic. I was addressing the issue by simply reiterating what I stated as a perameter of this topic when I first started it: the historical validity of Adam and Eve is to be assumed. If you disagree, fine; if you want to discuss it, do it in another topic. This is about Eden, not Adam and Eve. I appreciate your imput, and I very much welcome you to continue posting in my topic. This message is not intended to be judicious. I would just like to continue discussing the original topic here, instead of verging off away from it. Thank you.
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All right, then. I interpreted your words “[n]ow, yes, this is an infallible teaching of the Church, both in the two papal encyclicals ruben20 cited (which are infallible), and the Catechism…” to be a weighing in on the side issue. But I’ll gladly stick to the issue as you framed it, if others can do the same. But charges of heresy and “new age filth” to my posts will be responded to.
 
Hello there! My name’s Paul and I’m carrying out important work to show and share with the world the location of real Garden of Eden and central site of the Agricultural (Neolithic) Revolution. I led the field walk there in November 2009 and saw the damage being inflicted and the urgent need for protection by getting World Heritage Site status, requiring public support and official investigation. I hope it might do something to help bring peace to a troubled area and one of the holiest sites in Biblical lands.



This location of the site was comprehensively mapped out by Christian O’Brien in his 1985 book, “The Genius of The Few” where he identified it through descriptions given in the earliest Nippur Tablets (The Barton Cylinder, etc), Atrahasis and The Book of Enoch, along with other mentions in the Bible, The Book of Jubilees, The Koran etc. The Sumerians were first recorded to have written about this site and called it “Kharsag”.

Eden was located on Google Earth by Edmund Marriage, Director of The Patrick Foundation’s Golden Age Project in 2006. He discovered a mile long Great Watercourse and other features in place as per O’Brien’s map. I led the field walk recently in an initial survey which has provided the first video (unreleased) and photographic evidence of the site for peer review. Please see these maps for both Google Earth and Christian O’Brien’s placement of the remains of structures at this REAL place identified as the starting point of the Neolithic (Agricultural) Revolution at around 9,500BC, soon after the end of the last glacial - The Younger Dryas.

“Kharsag” in the Sumerian Nippur Tablets means “head enclosure”. Eden itself comes from the Sumerian word “Edin” meaning “plain” or “steppe”. The entire Rashaya basin floods every 5-10 years with millions of cubic gallons of water, forming a huge lake that can still be partially seen on Google Earth from the last one in 2005-2006. We found out from the Lebanese Red Cross that they had put dye down a sinkhole near the Great Watercourse that drains the entire basin. The dye came out in the Hasbani. After seeing all this, I now strongly suspect that the people who built Kharsag’s reservoir, dam and watercourse did so to control the Lebanese and Anti-Lebanese mountain run off waters and direct them out through the Wadi El-Neirab into the lowlands of “Eden”, the area around and likely to the South of Kharsag, which links into the Jordan river and associated famous valley…





Supporting evidence includes the development of agriculture at Jericho, cultivated crops are also found between 9,800 B.C and 8,400 B.C at Tell Aswad and starting at Tell Abu Hureyra, not very far to the North by 9,050BC. Cultivated figs were also dug up on the other side of Mount Hermon at Gilgal I, dated to 9,500-9,300 by Kislev et al not far from Kharsag / Eden. Perhaps the biggest problem with the Northern Theories are Dame Kathleen Kenyon’s excavations of Jericho, which shows organised agriculture long before that date to the South of both Anatolia (Turkey) and Lebanon. Also of interest at Jericho is the 600 metre x 9 metre x 3 metre rock cut ditch radio-carbon dated prior to the current dating of agriculture. Tell Aswad also has revealed evidence of agriculture and was inhabited between c. 9,800-8,400 B.C.

The Great Watercourse in Eden / Kharsag looks to have been approximately the same specification - 9 metres deep by 3 metres wide and extends over a mile, the sinkhole section is shown below. I have added another image, as if you look carefully, you can see a rock cut bridge extending over this section, with a groove alligned to Mount Hermon, from which I speculate hung a giant Cedar sluice (water control) gate.





There are various accounts of the Garden of Eden outside the Bible, including the Koran. The Nippur Tablets are most important source documents describing the location of the Garden of Eden, and it’s inhabitants, the first Sumerian Pantheon (An, Ninkharsag, Enlil & Enki). These were dug up in the foundations of the temple and library at Nippur by John Henry Haynes in 1898 and translated by George Aaron Barton. These are the oldest religious/story texts in the world, pre-dating the pyramid texts by at least half a century. O’Brien translated these stories as the founding of an agrarian community by people, rather than Gods in a time pre-dating “religion” as we know it.

Another is the Slavonic Book of Enoch 2 produced around the 2nd century BC from materials with a much older tradition, discovered by Canon Charles and translated by his friend Dr Morfill, the Professor of Slavonic Studies at Oxford. It is from Morfill’s work that we have the clearest accounts of the Garden of Eden. O’Brien added to Charles and Morfill’s translations.

Also we have an Akkadian work, Atra-hasis, Tablet 1 which was copied by a scribe called Ku-aya, in the reign of Ammi-saduqa about 1635 B.C., from non-existant, earlier material. It is indicated that Ku-aya translated an earlier Sumerian tablet into Akkadian. Translations of the Akkadian text have been made by Lambert and Millard, two Oxford scholars following in the footsteps of Canon Charles. Atra-hasis tells the story of a rebellion of the workers building the Great Watercourse in The Garden of Eden and of them surrounding Enlil’s Great House in a mob with tools raised.
 
I like to imagine the time when that watercourse was flowing, the two great houses of life and knowledge were shining silver in the moonlight. Camp fires from the workers houses were dotted all around the slopes into the valley. People settling down for the first time and learning to cultivate plants and organise our race. When the ruins of the large irrigation system and dam we found were operational, it must have made it very lush and green back then with likely far more trees.

Let me know if you have any questions, can offer any assistance or want more photos to examine.

Further explanation in slide format

My Blog

 
You and your team, and the researches your reference, seem to have done quite a bit of research on this subject. With Genesis using figurative language, it is difficult to say how much of its supernatural imagery was real or symbolic, such as the cherubim and the Trees. If all of it (except God obviously) was figurative, then your evidence would be more acceptable to me, since you treat Eden more as a historical location occupied by a historical community of people, as well as using the hypothetical Sumerian origin of the word Eden and other sources such as the Qu’ran. Unfortunately, I can’t offer a definitive agreement or disagreement with your ideas, due to this dilemma. I appreciate your information, however, it is certainly in line with the purpose of this topic and I welcome you to stay in this discussion. I would also like this to continue with anymore ideas people might have.
 
scameter18 said:
You and your team, and the researches your reference, seem to have done quite a bit of research on this subject. With Genesis using figurative language, it is difficult to say how much of its supernatural imagery was real or symbolic, such as the cherubim and the Trees. If all of it (except God obviously) was figurative, then your evidence would be more acceptable to me, since you treat Eden more as a historical location occupied by a historical community of people, as well as using the hypothetical Sumerian origin of the word Eden and other sources such as the Qu’ran. Unfortunately, I can’t offer a definitive agreement or disagreement with your ideas, due to this dilemma. I appreciate your information, however, it is certainly in line with the purpose of this topic and I welcome you to stay in this discussion. I would also like this to continue with anymore ideas people might have.
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His map is from Lebanon, right?
 
Thanks for your support and kind consideration scameter18.
larkin31 said:
His map is from Lebanon, right?
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Right! It’s in the Southern Be’qaa (Bekaa) Valley. It’s right on the border of modern Lebanon, Syria and Israel. The Golan heights and it’s UN demilitarized zone is just over the other side of Mount Hermon.

The Bible says Eden was at the heads of 4 rivers, which we know 2 are the Tigris (Hiddikel) and Euphrates but the Pison and Gihon went missing somewhere in history. Kharsag’s location would suggest the other 2 are the Litani and Jordan, which would tie up the Bible rather nicely. The Jordan also has 4 head-waters - the Dan, Banias, Upper Jordan and Hasbani rivers all feed into it and The Garden/ Kharsag is nicely placed near all the heads (as the Bible calls them).

The Orontes is the outside chance for people still vaguely favouring the Zagros mountains as the origin of agriculture. The evidence presented should show the dates seem to favour a more southern expansion around the Lebanese and Anti-Lebanese mountains.

The watercourse itself and irrigation channels in the Garden (Kharsag) could also have been named after rivers too it’s speculated. The Sumerian word is the same.
 
If I may ask, paygan, what are your views on the supernatural claims attributed to Eden, such as the cherubim, flaming swords guarding it, Trees of knowledge of good and evil and of life, etc.? As well as the supernatural claims in other books, such as the Qu’ran.
 
scameter18 said:
Assuming that the Garden of Eden story in Genesis is not purely allegorical but was a real place with a real Adam and Eve, the Bible never says Eden was destroyed but rather is guarded by angels and flaming swords. But if Eden was on the Earth, where is it now?
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I always thought Eden was where the tree of Life was…🤷

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear,
let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;
To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,
which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it,
and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life,
which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month:
and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments,
that they may have right to the tree of life,
and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Eden as maybe related to Paradise…these are the three verses in the Bible that mention Paradise

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee,
To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise,
and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
(Paul didn’t know if he was in the body or out of the body
when he went to Paradise see 2 Cor 12:3)

Revelation 2:7 (above)
 
Yes, you make a good point. I actually brought up the similarity between Eden and Heaven in an earlier post, such as the fact that the word Eden means paradise, which as you noted is a biblical word for Heaven. However, would this mean that Adam and Eve lived in a physical version of Heaven and were then sent to Earth at the Fall? Or what other implications would it have?
 
scameter18 said:
Assuming that the Garden of Eden story in Genesis is not purely allegorical but was a real place with a real Adam and Eve, the Bible never says Eden was destroyed but rather is guarded by angels and flaming swords. But if Eden was on the Earth, where is it now?
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There is a link to an article about forests/apples that talks about the dna of all apples going back to the apple forest in Kazakistan. Thousands of species of apples are in this beautiful forest.

davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/3125/

Food for thought
 
“The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents” (CCC 390)
 
scameter18 said:
Yes, you make a good point. I actually brought up the similarity between Eden and Heaven in an earlier post, such as the fact that the word Eden means paradise, which as you noted is a biblical word for Heaven. However, would this mean that Adam and Eve lived in a physical version of Heaven and were then sent to Earth at the Fall? Or what other implications would it have?
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scameter18 said:
or possibly a “Heaven on Earth”
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Sort of like heaven interpenetrating earth, the heavenly aspect which they lost when they fell (?) It doesn’t say in 2 Cor 12:2-3 that Paul was definitely in the body when he went to Paradise/third heaven…but I have a feeling like he was…just a hunch. Interesting to think about…maybe being cast out of Eden involved both a physical removal from the garden and spiritual removal/fall from heavenly Paradise spoken of in Revelation, a heavenly cherubim being placed at door/entry to Paradise to prevent reentry …🤷. If the cherub is still there how did Paul enter??
 
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