Where is she?

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I really feel like I’m in the same boat as some of the guys here, I really can’t find a guy if my life depended on it. It’s been very difficult for me, potentially for a different reason. I was raised agnostic and came into the faith at the age of 25. By that point I’d been a bit wild, and my family was and is still very, very crazy. I think that has made me less desirable, I mean noone wants a girl with baggage.The spring of 2005 I was knocked upside down by the Holy Spirit. It’s a long story but I came to believe and now I go to mass daily, pray daily, even when I don’t feel like it, am passionately prolife and love God with my whole heart, I pray in front of abortion clinics and spend a good deal of my time helping women in crisis pregnancies (it’s my thing). What’s a girl who’s converted with her whole heart and soul from the insanity of a sick and suffering family to do?
From what I’ve discerned religious communities, regardless of how pious you might presently be really want women to come from a solid foundation and not chaos, which I totally get. My question is can anyone look beyond the craziness I endured as a kid and young adult and see that there is value in a convert?
Absolutely!

My husband came from an interesting family background and is the only practicing Catholic amongst his very large family.
His mother is the closest he has to the faith…she is a practicing non-denominational…and HE was the one that got her to come back to the faith…just not the Catholic faith.
He jokes he was close. She is the only one that attends mass with us on occasion.
My family looks good on the outside…parents married for 30 years, comfortable, successful…raised two good and successful daughters who are both married and have kids and homes of our own…but peak under the covers and you unveil a huge mess of problems that have been going on for decades.

Though a man marries into the family…he is essentially marrying YOU and no one else. You are his priority…second only to God. What counts is your faith with God and how you raise your children.
 
The issue with being bold is that some women may still be uncomfortable with a random hello on the sidewalk. …] When you want to engage in small getting to know you talk, be bashful. The right woman would find it endearing and recognize that sometimes this is how it’s done.
Actually, I like this advice. It makes sense to me that a woman who has higher things in mind when choosing a man would appreciate one who is willing to take a reasonable amount of time in his approach and who respects her personal space.
I’ve gotta say…this is not what I’ve been taught, nor is it what even what other Christians are taught. …] Because God is outside of time, He knows if/who you’ll marry or won’t depending on your actions or those of other people. It’s mainly up to you and the specific person to discern if you are called to each other to make the sacrament - not “there was only one person who could be your spouse, and you missed the boat.”

We have to use our free will to cooperate with God’s will. Why prayer is so important!
This also makes a lot of sense to me.
As I said, the stopping factor is that you only really see a person’s looks and some samples of behaviour plus the knowledge the person at least sometimes goes to church (well, you presume always when needed but still), while the move is kinda obvious, so it would be a bad letdown if you later became less interested.
But to be honest, any time you approach a woman with the intention of asking her on a date you’re doing so because you like how she looks. That’s around 50% of it at least. The fact that she’s at mass shows that she meets at least a small amount of the other 50%. But then again, that’s what dating is all about, no? Trying to find out about the other person? You don’t only ask someone on a date if you’re sure that you’re 100% in love. Worst thing is you have a few dates and end up with a friend.
I’d discourage chatting up the girls on public transport. (Actually, I’d discourage making eye contact with any strangers on public transport.) You’re likely to run into crazies or people who live lives that are at odds with your own. The chances of finding someone you could work with are slim to none.
I really feel like I’m in the same boat as some of the guys here, I really can’t find a guy if my life depended on it. It’s been very difficult for me, potentially for a different reason. I was raised agnostic and came into the faith at the age of 25. By that point I’d been a bit wild, and my family was and is still very, very crazy. I think that has made me less desirable, I mean noone wants a girl with baggage.The spring of 2005 I was knocked upside down by the Holy Spirit. It’s a long story but I came to believe and now I go to mass daily, pray daily, even when I don’t feel like it, am passionately prolife and love God with my whole heart, I pray in front of abortion clinics and spend a good deal of my time helping women in crisis pregnancies (it’s my thing). What’s a girl who’s converted with her whole heart and soul from the insanity of a sick and suffering family to do?
From what I’ve discerned religious communities, regardless of how pious you might presently be really want women to come from a solid foundation and not chaos, which I totally get. My question is can anyone look beyond the craziness I endured as a kid and young adult and see that there is value in a convert?
No one here is perfect. We all have faults. Even saints do! (Heck, wasn’t a prostitute who repented made a saint?)

Actually, I find your story rather endearing. I’ll be a convert myself if I decide to complete RCIA and make the profession and get confirmed. I think the fact that someone is willing to admit their mistakes, change their ways, and grow to be a better person shows lots of character. You’d be surprised how many people, especially this day in age, did stuff when they were younger that they wished they hadn’t. Perhaps you could find someone with a similar story that you feel comfortable with, as he’d feel like he knows how it feels?
 
I really feel like I’m in the same boat as some of the guys here, I really can’t find a guy if my life depended on it. It’s been very difficult for me, potentially for a different reason. I was raised agnostic and came into the faith at the age of 25. By that point I’d been a bit wild, and my family was and is still very, very crazy. I think that has made me less desirable, I mean noone wants a girl with baggage.The spring of 2005 I was knocked upside down by the Holy Spirit. It’s a long story but I came to believe and now I go to mass daily, pray daily, even when I don’t feel like it, am passionately prolife and love God with my whole heart, I pray in front of abortion clinics and spend a good deal of my time helping women in crisis pregnancies (it’s my thing). What’s a girl who’s converted with her whole heart and soul from the insanity of a sick and suffering family to do?
From what I’ve discerned religious communities, regardless of how pious you might presently be really want women to come from a solid foundation and not chaos, which I totally get. My question is can anyone look beyond the craziness I endured as a kid and young adult and see that there is value in a convert?
I technically don’t have any baggage (no relationship history) (although I am a child of divorced parents) and I haven’t met him yet so 🤷 Who knows? But once you’ve asked for forgiveness, don’t continue to beat yourself up about your past. Your future husband will be accepting of your past.
 
Well, I came here tonight because I was thinking a lot about the same thing, and wanted some advice, but it looks like Horizon18 beat me to the punch! I could be planning my wedding right now to a pretty great guy who is one of my best friends, if I could only look past the fact that he is a fallen away Catholic who hasn’t and doesn’t live by the values I’ve chosen to live by as a Catholic. I think if I was in the same situation, yet the young man in question was a practicing non-Catholic Christian who had lived by his values versus a fallen away Catholic, then I would have decided differently. But I still honestly don’t know if I’ve made the right decision to walk away from that relationship, especially because the Catholic dating scene is so decidedly bleak, and I’m not 22 anymore.

I live in a pretty big city with a reasonable sized Catholic young adult population, but I’ve basically become completely burned out on doing anything that is labeled as being for Catholic young adults. Since Horizon18 complained about the girls he meets through Catholic young adult groups, it’s only fair I give the woman’s perspective on this. The guys I have met through the Catholic young adult groups tend to be 1) creepy guys in their 40s or older who are not actually young adults, 2) nice guys who make great friends, but are either very socially awkward or just have nothing in common with me, 3) serial daters who don’t actually seem like they are particularly serious about their faith, but are evidently tired of the bar scene, or 4) guys who might actually be worth getting to know, but who show up to events only once or twice and don’t actually take the time to get involved. (I should say that the 4th group is very rare.) It doesn’t help that most of the activities for Catholic young adults tend to be unclear on whether they are singles events or spiritual activities, and end up at some weird place in between. I have actually had better luck with other Christian denominations in this sense, because they tend to put a lot more emphasis on building community and being personally responsible for being involved with their churches or prayer groups so that it actually becomes possible to build real friendships and grow in faith, as opposed to just trying to meet people.

In terms of some of the other things that people were discussing in this thread, God definitely doesn’t promise to bring us a spouse! God’s concern is the salvation of our souls, not finding us the perfect mate. I would say that my good Catholic friends who have met “the one” tend to fall into two categories: those who put a lot of time and energy into dating and going to different events and eventually, somehow, met that great Catholic girl or guy; and those who realized someone else in their lives was right for them, even though that person wasn’t the perfect Catholic spouse they were expecting to find. I don’t think there’s one answer that is right for everyone.

Well, anyway, perhaps we could be very Catholic and say a novena for one another, because there’s obviously a lot of us in the same boat! St. Anne’s feast day is coming up… :rolleyes:
 
The issue with being bold is that some women may still be uncomfortable with a random hello on the sidewalk. Start small: wave. Next Mass, if you see her sitting alone, ask if the seat near her is taken and simply sit and exchange peace. When you want to engage in small getting to know you talk, be bashful. The right woman would find it endearing and recognize that sometimes this is how it’s done.

I’ve gotta say…this is not what I’ve been taught, nor is it what even what other Christians are taught. There’s an article on boundless.org about this very subject. Because God is outside of time, He knows if/who you’ll marry or won’t depending on your actions or those of other people. It’s mainly up to you and the specific person to discern if you are called to each other to make the sacrament - not “there was only one person who could be your spouse, and you missed the boat.”

We have to use our free will to cooperate with God’s will. Why prayer is so important!
It’s interesting to hear guys are afraid to say hello in church. That seems like the best place to make an introduction! I agree with you that the guy can take little steps like sitting near her during Mass and then introduce himself right after. That would be nice and non-threatening.

I think that although this isn’t what Christians have been taught, several stories in the Bible illustrate that God can and has made matches. I can see it both ways and I struggle with how proactive I’m supposed to be (especially as a woman). I don’t think anyone should be sitting in their house expecting a spouse to knock on their door (although miracles can happen, they are rare). I think we should all be living good lives, set a good example, be of service to others, and be friendly and open. God knows who (if) there is a spouse and how the two will meet. I do think through prayer, our free will should be aligned with God’s will for our lives. I know some Christians who 100% believe a spouse comes from God and don’t do anything including online dating. I think God can work through any medium to bring your spouse to you but obviously you have to be “out there” in some sense. I hope I’m not contradicting myself and I hope this makes sense.

One more thing! I think a lot of us are not truly OPEN. We tend to have a type (which is generally based completely in the flesh and on physical characteristics instead of spiritual qualities). Sometimes God shows us a person but that person is not our “type.” He or she may not have the hair color, eye color, skin color, height, weight, fashion style, job, education level, money in the bank, whatever that you desire but if you take the time to get to know that person, you may find that you connect on the levels that really matter and attraction develops over time. Don’t expect to be bowled over the first time you meet this person! If that happens, great. But this shouldn’t be the criteria by which you decide to continue to get to know someone. There are so many hidden gems out there but they don’t meet out initial screening criteria. :rolleyes: I have heard many happily married couples say “he or she was not what I expected but I just love him/her.” 😃 EPATHA!
 
But we have to actually get out and look if he is to help us find a spouse. Again, it’s a three-man effort. God, Man, Woman. The man and the woman have to not sit around playing World of Warcraft all day, have to go outside, have to open their mouths and talk to one another, etc. You aren’t going to be pleasantly surprised one day when a spouse-in-a-box® magically appears on your doorstep.

God just plants the idea in their heads or makes it click. I think a lot of what God does involves planting ideas or instincts in people – he’s very subtle and passive in this regard. But then one day it goes from being subtle to being like a lightbulb that just turns on for the first time.
I would actually like to re-address your post here, Sgt Schultz. I believe that your post is closer to the correct thinking then mine was.

I think you’re correct when you say that God will not send a man his spouse (or vice versa) if he refuses to put in the necessary work to find her.

I would like to compare the vocation to marriage to a vocation for religious life. A person may be called to religious life, but even in this case the person in question isn’t going to wake up one morning and find that he/she is now a priest/nun. Much time needs to be spent investigating which order the person in question is being called to join and even then the religious order needs to determine whether they wish to accept the new candidate.

At the end of the day, I do very much believe that God guides us to find our future spouses, but I also think that we have to put the necessary effort in to the search and carry our own crosses along the way. 🙂
 
But to be honest, any time you approach a woman with the intention of asking her on a date you’re doing so because you like how she looks.
Depends. If she doesn’t have the advantage of immediately attracting me with her looks, then it will take longer if she’s going to have attracted me in the long run. On the other hand, looks won’t really get her too far with me before I get info on other things. Sure, a coffee. Or drinks. Conversation. But it won’t really cross the limits of what a married woman could get away with doing, until the point when I have more information.
But then again, that’s what dating is all about, no? Trying to find out about the other person?
Yeah except getting to know someone doesn’t including needing to verify first-hand whether that person is a good kisser or cuddler or whatever. Or otherwise getting the sensual stuff in motion. It stays basically friends.
You don’t only ask someone on a date if you’re sure that you’re 100% in love.
Of course but then it’s like I said above.
I’d discourage chatting up the girls on public transport.
So would I but I’ve done a couple of things I discourage. Just cited an extreme example from my younger years, don’t worry too much about that one. 😉
You’re likely to run into crazies or people who live lives that are at odds with your own. The chances of finding someone you could work with are slim to none.
That’s actually true in any situation of asking people out on dates right off the street or party or social gathering or political event, anything like that. Which is why I’m opposed to the typically understood dating scheme, in which an attractive stranger asks out another stranger and they go on a date. People should just meet up and talk first. After which, the process of dating pretty much stops making any sense because they’re already at least seeing each other if not actually in a proper relationship.

Besides, another factor which skews the matching logic is the situational fireworks of dating, that is, the importance of how spectacular entertainment was provided. 😉 You basically get points for how the attractions (fireworks) worked out, while you should be getting points for who you are, which should be following from conversations. Dating is still very much a reward-based system to a great extent as opposed to a match-making system.
 
One more thing! I think a lot of us are not truly OPEN. We tend to have a type (which is generally based completely in the flesh and on physical characteristics instead of spiritual qualities). Sometimes God shows us a person but that person is not our “type.” He or she may not have the hair color, eye color, skin color, height, weight, fashion style, job, education level, money in the bank, whatever that you desire but if you take the time to get to know that person, you may find that you connect on the levels that really matter and attraction develops over time. Don’t expect to be bowled over the first time you meet this person! If that happens, great. But this shouldn’t be the criteria by which you decide to continue to get to know someone. There are so many hidden gems out there but they don’t meet out initial screening criteria. :rolleyes: I have heard many happily married couples say “he or she was not what I expected but I just love him/her.” 😃 EPATHA!
Types are limiting and immediate reaction is overrated. Besides, we can actually force ourselves to evolve a bit and have some influence over whom our system finds attractive based on our values and conscious choices.

For the record, I think the dear, trusted friend type a person may have might actually be closer to what marriage takes or means than the type that would supposedly sweep one off his feet. You know, gentle breeze vs big fire and all that.
The issue with being bold is that some women may still be uncomfortable with a random hello on the sidewalk. Start small: wave.
I’d say (to a man, well, of course! ;)), just do it. It will certainly come out better after five or six times than the first time. It isn’t really that hard. It’s a bit like truth and dare. You can do it. If you want to get elected, sell stuff, make clients, whatever, you just need to have this type of skills and nerve.

A trick you can use is a very polite, slightly formal wording or gesture (as in bowing your head a little, saying “good afternoon” instead of “hi”, this type of thing), in which case the recipient can’t really hurt your feelings too much with his or her response without making himself or herself look like a bad-mannered person. This may be half the reason why so much formal language goes back and forth in law and business (availing yourself of the opportunity to renew assurances of your continued respect and all that jazz). It’s hard to just tell somebody to go play with the bees in such circumstances (without projecting a very bad impression of oneself).

For example you indeed actually start talking to a woman in the street but you actually execute a polite, slightly formal greeting, follow through with socially acceptable non-familial English and keep the “madam” at the end of the sentence (or keep the third person in Spanish or Italian or the plural vous in French, whatever is the non-juvenile-Internet way of talking in the language you use). Since you aren’t being too hail-fellow-well-met with her, you aren’t according her the right to tell you to naff off in very simple language. This is actually manipulative but life is tough. 😛 You wouldn’t believe things I’ve got away with using this method (but also tolerated from others when they were smart or diligent enough to use it) and I don’t mean romance here.

What’s not so manipulative (technically perhaps it is but you get my point) is that in doing so you show the other person that you are a person of culture and you manage to excuse the circumstances.
 
I ran out of the time to edit the last post but it’s sort of like when you’ve run out of cigarettes and need to ask a stranger to share one or two. You heap enough politeness or kindness or some other assurances of being a perfectly normal human being just like he is, on him, and you get that cigarette because he’s a normal human like you. The same way you work your way around the taboo against striking up a conversation with a stranger. Which was not considered to be a taboo back in the time when politeness was a valued skill, actually. What mattered was how you did that. Still, even nowadays, if you’re courteous and positive enough, you may as well interrupt a total stranger to compliment her on her haircut. And yes, I’ve done that too.
 
Regarding the school of thought that there is one person that God has reserved for you, Karl Keating has addressed that in one of his e-letters:

archive.catholic.com/newsletters/kke_080108.asp
This is quite brilliant.
Depends. If she doesn’t have the advantage of immediately attracting me with her looks, then it will take longer if she’s going to have attracted me in the long run. On the other hand, looks won’t really get her too far with me before I get info on other things. Sure, a coffee. Or drinks. Conversation. But it won’t really cross the limits of what a married woman could get away with doing, until the point when I have more information.
Indeed, looks only get you so far. But you wouldn’t have asked out a dowdy girl to whom you weren’t attracted. I’m not saying you’d need to ask out a Barbie doll (actually, I don’t care for that type myself – I find it cheap, tawdry, shallow and vain) but you will go for someone who is “kinda cute” or “looks sweet”.
Yeah except getting to know someone doesn’t including needing to verify first-hand whether that person is a good kisser or cuddler or whatever. Or otherwise getting the sensual stuff in motion. It stays basically friends.
Oi, but here we are again with the physical stuff! Sure, if you become girlfriend and boyfriend, I’m sure you’ll get into those things, but going on a date isn’t “we will kiss and/or cuddle”. To me, a date is something that, in the beginning stages at least, is about finding out about one another, determining whether you’d make a good couple, whether you like the person more than their looks and some superficial conversations, etc. Then again, maybe I’m wrong in my use of the term.
So would I but I’ve done a couple of things I discourage. Just cited an extreme example from my younger years, don’t worry too much about that one. 😉
Haha! As have I. I now know that I wouldn’t want to have anything to do with a girl who allows herself to be chatted-up by strangers on public transport.
That’s actually true in any situation of asking people out on dates right off the street or party or social gathering or political event, anything like that. Which is why I’m opposed to the typically understood dating scheme, in which an attractive stranger asks out another stranger and they go on a date. **People should just meet up and talk first. **
But it still sounds here as if you’re describing a “less intense, less expectational” form of dating. After all, the meeting up and talking is being done to ascertain whether you want to pursue them for eventual marriage. You wouldn’t bother “getting to know them” in this manner if they were married or if they never wanted to marry.
Dating is still very much a reward-based system to a great extent as opposed to a match-making system.
But is this not just a side-effect of bad culture and not the true meaning of the word? Maybe the word I’m looking for is “courting”? (Then again, I’d never use it with a woman I like, unless we know each other quite well and she understands my wordsmithing!)
Types are limiting and immediate reaction is overrated. Besides, we can actually force ourselves to evolve a bit and have some influence over whom our system finds attractive based on our values and conscious choices.

For the record, I think the dear, trusted friend type a person may have might actually be closer to what marriage takes or means than the type that would supposedly sweep one off his feet. You know, gentle breeze vs big fire and all that.
Indeed. Looking back, there are a few girls I wish I’d pursued who were like this. They were certainly attractive, but they weren’t as attractive as I’d foolishly thought they should be in the physical sense. Now I see they were more attractive than I deserved, in both the physical and personal sense. If I ever have the chance in the future, I’d be willing to marry them in a heartbeat.
A trick you can use is a very polite, slightly formal wording or gesture (as in bowing your head a little, saying “good afternoon” instead of “hi”, this type of thing), in which case the recipient can’t really hurt your feelings too much with his or her response without making himself or herself look like a bad-mannered person.
This actually sounds like a pretty good idea. I’m not too sure about my using “madam” though! 😛 Sounds a bit too forced.
 
Indeed, looks only get you so far. But you wouldn’t have asked out a dowdy girl to whom you weren’t attracted. I’m not saying you’d need to ask out a Barbie doll (actually, I don’t care for that type myself – I find it cheap, tawdry, shallow and vain) but you will go for someone who is “kinda cute” or “looks sweet”.
Depends really. There would need to be a sufficient distinctive cause to ask out that person at all (in the first place) and then to ask out that person and perhaps not any other (in the second place). The distinctive factors could be different from looks if I were able to observe them, while the other ones (e.g. intelligence, good character, particular kindness or good manners) take longer to observe than looks. Bottom line being that one needs to stand out to be noticed. But this is pretty reasonable as the alternative would be to ask out people who don’t attract our attention in any particular way, which would also mean thousands of people.

For the record, I tend to get stuck on dating websites because it’s like, well, a somewhat pretty girl, with a somewhat nice personality, somewhat interesting hobbies, why again do I write to that one and not to the 500 comparable others (of whom I might even recognise the faces and other details by that point)? The lack of a sufficient cause to act, sufficient distinctive factor to make a person stand out, kills the thing.

If I were to relax on the above, I would necessarily need to meet a lot of people, talk to all of them, compare them, inevitably disappoint a good many of them, not to mention financial expenditure and lost time for them and for me. Which is not a problem in individual situations but would be a problem with more volume. (Imagine seeing people across the country 10 times a month.) A good solution, I guess, is to start as acquaintances, then maybe friends, just talk, allow people’s individual qualities to unfold. Then the bigger picture may prompt you to action.
Oi, but here we are again with the physical stuff!
Of course. And I’ll never drop the subject! It is a very important contention to me that physical stuff should not be happening between strangers who are each mentally processing like 5 other strangers at the time.
Sure, if you become girlfriend and boyfriend, I’m sure you’ll get into those things, but going on a date isn’t “we will kiss and/or cuddle”.
I tend to think the word “date” does imply that. Point is, it does not say so directly, of course, but it does have the implication. It’s basically so open-ended and the typical progression is no known to everybody, that it’s pretty obvious and a reasonable persons knows what this is about. It would take an amount of pretending to work around this, I believe. However, I might be wrong especially when it comes to specific contexts from places where I don’t live or visit.
To me, a date is something that, in the beginning stages at least, is about finding out about one another, determining whether you’d make a good couple, whether you like the person more than their looks and some superficial conversations, etc. Then again, maybe I’m wrong in my use of the term.
You’re stating the purpose while I’m focusing on the distracting externals. Problem being that those externals are quite pleasurable and so we people are tempted to pursue them for their own sake.
Haha! As have I. I now know that I wouldn’t want to have anything to do with a girl who allows herself to be chatted-up by strangers on public transport.
You’d be surprised. But I’ve actually caught you admitting a certain hands-off sentiment when it comes to strangers! In my book there is nothing wrong with a girl who allows herself to engage in a conversation started by an attractive (supposedly) stranger of the opposite sex on public transport. BUT a girl accepting an overt dating (i.e. strolling down the park in the moonlight holding hands and kissing if things go right or whatever the equivalent thereof is in a dim-lit cinema) invitation strikes me as something that shouldn’t be taking place. Because, very openly speaking, the thought of her and him engaging in a degree of romantic interaction, especially physical, should be a taboo subject between two strangers, the way I see it, which is obviously influenced by my upbringing, and I realise other people see it differently.
But it still sounds here as if you’re describing a “less intense, less expectational” form of dating.
I realise that. It all comes down to the fact that “dating” has a million definitions. If this helps any, I would suggest avoiding the word itself (“date”, “dating” etc.), focusing instead on getting to know each other, without unwarranted implications of seriousness/commitment/whatever but at the same time without “reaping the fruit”.
After all, the meeting up and talking is being done to ascertain whether you want to pursue them for eventual marriage. You wouldn’t bother “getting to know them” in this manner if they were married or if they never wanted to marry.
The manner being key there. But it wouldn’t be much different from indeed making friends with a married person. Because at that stage a friendly outcome has much more probability than a friendship+romance outcome. Romance outcome without a friendship outcome not being a possibility (as that kinda feels like a fling, which doesn’t really hint marriage).
But is this not just a side-effect of bad culture and not the true meaning of the word?
Nope. I believe dating as a concept is an effect of the culture you speak about.
Maybe the word I’m looking for is “courting”?
Not sure but probably not. “Courting” is when you’ve made your mind as to the choice of the woman. You are still discerning in the sense things can change yet and you’re having your last time to think before lawfully do you wed. But that’s a different thing altogether from how you proceed early on when you simply meet an interesting or potentially interesting stranger.
Indeed. Looking back, there are a few girls I wish I’d pursued who were like this. They were certainly attractive, but they weren’t as attractive as I’d foolishly thought they should be in the physical sense. Now I see they were more attractive than I deserved, in both the physical and personal sense. If I ever have the chance in the future, I’d be willing to marry them in a heartbeat.
That does sound familiar, but if this is any consolation, if they really were so subjectively marriageable to you in particular, something would probably have arisen anyway. Right now chances are you don’t even know what kind of people they’ve grown to be.
This actually sounds like a pretty good idea. I’m not too sure about my using “madam” though! 😛 Sounds a bit too forced.
The absence of it sounds forced to me but to each his own. 😉 I’m influenced by my first language, which uses more elaborate forms of address with strangers you respect, it doesn’t come down to the title you use at the end of the sentence. But the words aren’t important, a generally more formal language and sticking within some degree of formal politeness is the key here. 😉 Comes down to wording a more formal, old-fashioned, socially acceptable invitation to conversation rather than producing a “hi, sup” and except her to react positively. 😉 Which, I guess, comes down to showing the stranger respect and showing yourself as a cultured person, thus one that one could wish to converse with. (Especially as an alternative to a long, silent journey.) Well, the other point is not to be too formal, avoid being stiff or boring, make it brief and digestible. But this is more about execution than concept, I suppose.
 
From 1 Cor 7
27Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek a separation. Are you free of a wife? Then do not look for a wife. 28If you marry, however, you do not sin, nor does an unmarried woman sin if she marries; but such people will experience affliction in their earthly life, and I would like to spare you that. …]32I should like you to be free of anxieties. An unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord. 33But a married man is anxious about the things of the world, how he may please his wife,k 34and he is divided. An unmarried woman or a virgin is anxious about the things of the Lord, so that she may be holy in both body and spirit. A married woman, on the other hand, is anxious about the things of the world, how she may please her husband.l 35I am telling you this for your own benefit, not to impose a restraint upon you, but for the sake of propriety and adherence to the Lord without distraction.
Keep meeting people, but strive to not see being single as a waiting period. Do not confuse restlessness over your current vocation (which is being single) with being called to a different vocation. Discerning where God wants you is not all about gut feelings, but also about the opportunities God presents you with and the current commitments you have.
 
Depends really. There would need to be a sufficient distinctive cause to ask out that person at all (in the first place) and then to ask out that person and perhaps not any other (in the second place). The distinctive factors could be different from looks if I were able to observe them, while the other ones (e.g. intelligence, good character, particular kindness or good manners) take longer to observe than looks. Bottom line being that one needs to stand out to be noticed. But this is pretty reasonable as the alternative would be to ask out people who don’t attract our attention in any particular way, which would also mean thousands of people.
Yes, but at the same time the looks are still a factor. While I definitely agree that you can grow to find someone more attractive than you first thought, you will have already found those people to be, at the very least “okay”. This will most likely be due to the fact that people’s physical attraction is relative depending on who is around them. When I was dating a girl, for instance, I didn’t think that many other girls looks particularly special but that she did.
A good solution, I guess, is to start as acquaintances, then maybe friends, just talk, allow people’s individual qualities to unfold. Then the bigger picture may prompt you to action.
This is good advice, and the easiest, I think, to follow.
I tend to think the word “date” does imply that. Point is, it does not say so directly, of course, but it does have the implication. It’s basically so open-ended and the typical progression is no known to everybody, that it’s pretty obvious and a reasonable persons knows what this is about. It would take an amount of pretending to work around this, I believe. However, I might be wrong especially when it comes to specific contexts from places where I don’t live or visit.
I realise that. It all comes down to the fact that “dating” has a million definitions. If this helps any, I would suggest avoiding the word itself (“date”, “dating” etc.), focusing instead on getting to know each other, without unwarranted implications of seriousness/commitment/whatever but at the same time without “reaping the fruit”.
So perhaps the term “date” should be avoided. Though I will continue to insist, privately, that the thing is, in fact, a date.
You’d be surprised. But I’ve actually caught you admitting a certain hands-off sentiment when it comes to strangers! In my book there is nothing wrong with a girl who allows herself to engage in a conversation started by an attractive (supposedly) stranger of the opposite sex on public transport. BUT a girl accepting an overt dating (i.e. strolling down the park in the moonlight holding hands and kissing if things go right or whatever the equivalent thereof is in a dim-lit cinema) invitation strikes me as something that shouldn’t be taking place. Because, very openly speaking, the thought of her and him engaging in a degree of romantic interaction, especially physical, should be a taboo subject between two strangers, the way I see it, which is obviously influenced by my upbringing, and I realise other people see it differently.
Well, when I say “chatting-up” I mean flirting or “trying to get to go on a date”. Just talking without any motive is fine. I do that with men sometimes, just to pass the time or to defuse a tense situation, such as when there is a transport delay.
The manner being key there. But it wouldn’t be much different from indeed making friends with a married person. Because at that stage a friendly outcome has much more probability than a friendship+romance outcome. Romance outcome without a friendship outcome not being a possibility (as that kinda feels like a fling, which doesn’t really hint marriage).
Oh, I’d stay away from trying to make friends with married women. If you’re friends before they get married that’s one thing. You can never really do things with them, except as groups. (So maybe “friend” is okay, it’s just not the same as one of your best mates.) I have a couple married female friends, but we only chat occasionally or do things in a group. One of them has grand kids, so it’s not a concern that there would be scandal or something happening! 😛
That does sound familiar, but if this is any consolation, if they really were so subjectively marriageable to you in particular, something would probably have arisen anyway. Right now chances are you don’t even know what kind of people they’ve grown to be.
Oh, but I had dinner with one last year, and she’s even more amazing that I thought six years ago! As for the other, I see what she does on Facebook. Still classy, wonderful, and sweet. Then again, they live in other countries and would need a visa to live and work here, so perhaps you’re right. I want to marry a woman with family in the same city as me.
The absence of it sounds forced to me but to each his own. 😉 I’m influenced by my first language, which uses more elaborate forms of address with strangers you respect, it doesn’t come down to the title you use at the end of the sentence.
Okay, that makes sense then. Madam doesn’t really work in English for your purpose.
But the words aren’t important, a generally more formal language and sticking within some degree of formal politeness is the key here. 😉 Comes down to wording a more formal, old-fashioned, socially acceptable invitation to conversation rather than producing a “hi, sup” and except her to react positively. 😉 Which, I guess, comes down to showing the stranger respect and showing yourself as a cultured person, thus one that one could wish to converse with.
Fair enough. I would never say “hi, sup” to a woman I wanted to “date”, and I’d prefer not to ever use it. But if there is someone I need to speak with who looks like a “hi, sup” type of person, I’ll say it. (Skater kid, etc.) I typically say “hello” or “good morning”. To a cashier I’ll say “hi”. “Hi N.” to a colleague, co worker, etc.
 
Yes, but at the same time the looks are still a factor. While I definitely agree that you can grow to find someone more attractive than you first thought, you will have already found those people to be, at the very least “okay”. This will most likely be due to the fact that people’s physical attraction is relative depending on who is around them. When I was dating a girl, for instance, I didn’t think that many other girls looks particularly special but that she did.
To be honest, I’ve lost sight of the reason why we’re discussing this particular point. I think, however, that the problem with dating and strangers is that it’s only really looks you can rely on before you put yourself in a situation with expectations. Counting three dates to a relationship, six months at the longest to engagement, this type of thing. And all based on looks? Not enough data to decide on!
So perhaps the term “date” should be avoided.
I’d say so.
Well, when I say “chatting-up” I mean flirting or “trying to get to go on a date”. Just talking without any motive is fine. I do that with men sometimes, just to pass the time or to defuse a tense situation, such as when there is a transport delay.
Well, with a girl, you’d be doing that to find out more about her with a “conditional motive” perhaps. Don’t need to make it like passing the time. But it shouldn’t be too overt flirting or any other relationship talk.
Oh, but I had dinner with one last year, and she’s even more amazing that I thought six years ago!
Ouch. That must’ve hurt. Or not. It could, in my case.
As for the other, I see what she does on Facebook. Still classy, wonderful, and sweet. Then again, they live in other countries and would need a visa to live and work here, so perhaps you’re right. I want to marry a woman with family in the same city as me.
Forget it, move on.
Okay, that makes sense then. Madam doesn’t really work in English for your purpose.
Depends really where you are. In formal business or social contexts, you still slap the sir or madam at the end of the sentence (which I do almost always with anybody anyway but I’m old-fashioned). Obviously, in such a situation you use a different type of syntax (it’s like going back to 19th century), so it doesn’t sound like, ‘would you like fries with that, sir?’ if this is what you have in mind. It’s not a, ‘you’re the boss,’ type of sir/madam, it’s a polite recognition of someone of more or less your own status. Half of the reason I insist on it is that I like my distance.
Fair enough. I would never say “hi, sup” to a woman I wanted to “date”, and I’d prefer not to ever use it. But if there is someone I need to speak with who looks like a “hi, sup” type of person, I’ll say it. (Skater kid, etc.) I typically say “hello” or “good morning”. To a cashier I’ll say “hi”. “Hi N.” to a colleague, co worker, etc.
I also opt for adapting to people. Unless I go for a cheery loud “salaam aleikum” to liven the suits up a bit. Examples are debatable, anyway. Point being no undue fraternisation, formal and respectful enough of the person’s personal space and boundaries, keeping the healthy distance. Too formal would just be odd.

For the record, with two buddies of mine, we used to insist on saying, ‘yo, homie!’ just loud enough that the rest of the law firm where we worked could hear it if it was somewhere around (which was almost as cool as greeting the insolvency partner as the Queen of the Damned). Too bad I left my slippers there when we split. A young meat eventually threw them away from what I’ve been told.
 
From 1 Cor 7

Keep meeting people, but strive to not see being single as a waiting period. Do not confuse restlessness over your current vocation (which is being single) with being called to a different vocation. Discerning where God wants you is not all about gut feelings, but also about the opportunities God presents you with and the current commitments you have.
Horrible advice to give to a male.

First, vocations don’t change (except when death releases one from the marital bond), states of life change. And the CCC recognizes marriage as a vocation (in fact, teh one that is written into our very nature, according to CCC 1603), whereas it does not recornize simply being single as a vocation (it is only a vocation within the context of “virginity for the sake of the kingdom”, which is further clarified as “priestly ministry” and “consecrated life”).

Second, it is the male’s role to pursue. Quoting a random bible verse (which will be a perfect segway to point three) to tell a male to stop looking only serves to squelch the male drive to pursue.

Third, in the same chapter of 1 Corinthians that you quoted, St. Paul also states that it is better to marry than burn, and that, to avoid immorality, everyone should have their own spouse.

As I tell people, if I knew I could handle lifelong celibacy, there is a chance I would be wearing a collar by now.
 
Horrible advice to give to a male.

First, vocations don’t change (except when death releases one from the marital bond), states of life change.
A person may feel called to a particular vocation, but until you are in that vocation, you do not know how much of your belief in your calling comes from you and how much comes from God. Vocations do change. I can become a novice in a convent and make yearly vows till I discern out before making my permanent vows. I can then get married. Or I can be widowed and then join a religious order. How permanent your vocation is depends on the vows you’ve made to God.

Certainly its important to discern your vocation, but all that means is that your own internal biases, fear, and hang ups can easily get mixed in with any sense of knowing what God is calling you to do. Beyond feelings, you have to also look at the opportunities God has given you.
And the CCC recognizes marriage as a vocation (in fact, teh one that is written into our very nature, according to CCC 1603), whereas it does not recornize simply being single as a vocation (it is only a vocation within the context of “virginity for the sake of the kingdom”, which is further clarified as “priestly ministry” and “consecrated life”).
God gives us a way everyday to love and serve him and to live out our vocation. Certainly a vocation is more than just whether I’m married or consecrated. St. Therese was already in the convent when she discerned she had a vocation to love. Now, certainly there is an element that being in a single state isn’t quite a vocation because you’re not giving yourself to it. Thus you have to find your vocation as a single person. Why has God kept you single? How is God calling you to live out your single years day by day? That sort of thing. Whereas with marriage, until you’re married, you haven’t given yourself to that vocation. You may be called, but its not yours till you’re there. You may also be wrong about your calling. Its not just about emotions and gut feelings we get in prayer. Its also about the opportunities God gives us. If you haven’t met someone, yet than that is likely within the realm of God’s will.
Second, it is the male’s role to pursue. Quoting a random bible verse (which will be a perfect segway to point three) to tell a male to stop looking only serves to squelch the male drive to pursue.
I’m not saying a man can’t pursue a woman he is interested in. Pursuing a specific woman you’ve developed an interest for and being restless about being single are two different things. I may have quoted only a segment of the passage, but the segment I posted shouldn’t be ignored. If you take the entire section in its entirely, both men and women should focus themselves on serving God in their current state. Than if they meet and are interested in each other they can take the step in approaching a vocation to marriage.

No woman wants to be pursued merely because she’s a woman. She wants to be pursued because you were interested in who she is as a person. Both men and women have to learn to foster their friendships without ulterior motives.

And honestly whether or not a man or woman ask the other out is simply culture not moral. In the days of courtship, men had to wait to either be invited by the girl’s father (if the girl was younger and had not yet been introduced to society) or by the woman to come calling. This was because courtships would happen at the woman’s home.

Men took control with dating because rather than waiting to be invited to the woman’s world of her home, he was inviting her out to the man’s world. Since he made money and she didn’t, he had to ask her out because he was the host. It would be rude to ask a man and then expect him to pay. It had nothing to do with biblical roles!
Third, in the same chapter of 1 Corinthians that you quoted, St. Paul also states that it is better to marry than burn, and that, to avoid immorality, everyone should have their own spouse.
Take the entire thing in its context. First he says he prefers celibacy, then he says to avoid immorality, to marry, then again he says to not look for a spouse. Then he says more specifically that if a man and a woman meet and the point has come, let them marry. Ultimately, the point is don’t be restless about it. Let God bring the woman in His time and don’t get in a panic. Foster friendships and don’t pursue a woman unless you’re really interested in who she is.
As I tell people, if I knew I could handle lifelong celibacy, there is a chance I would be wearing a collar by now.
If the only thing keeping you from the collar is how intidated you feel about lifelong celibacy, perhaps you need to discern your vocation better and consider priesthood or life in a monastery. Granted if you only mean that because you think every person who has self control should join the priesthood to solve the priestly shortage, than that’s another story.

There is a difference between choosing between a woman you are interested in and religious life/priesthood and choosing between religious life and the idea of someone.
 
To be honest, I’ve lost sight of the reason why we’re discussing this particular point. * *
To be honest, I’ve forgotten as well. This system doesn’t do nested quotes, and that’s probably a good thing! Some posts are long and unwieldy enough as it is. Enough of this tangent regarding looks, I say!
chevalier;9542931:
Well, with a girl, you’d be doing that to find out more about her with a “conditional motive” perhaps. Don’t need to make it like passing the time. But it shouldn’t be too overt flirting or any other relationship talk.
I can go for that. It’s like talking to a guy, except she’s a girl whom you find attractive. If it turns out that she’s attractive in the appropriate non-physical ways, so be it – you may or may not pursue later. If not, then no harm, no foul.

Again, I’d still proceed with caution in these circumstances. I think it would be more appropriate if you had something in common outside of the fact that you’re on transit. For example, 80%+ of the students where I went to university took transit. You could always talk about school. In fact, you might have a totally innocent, legitimate and interesting conversation!
Ouch. That must’ve hurt. Or not. It could, in my case.
Not in this instance, thankfully. I never pursued her. It was my fault for not taking the initiative. But then again, now that I think about it, I couldn’t really marry her even if she wanted to. She lives on the other side of the world. Since my family is 5000 km away, I decided that I want to marry a woman with family nearby. It would be better for children if they have grandparents, uncles, aunts, etc. Two rootless transplants would not work.

She’s actually a very good friend, and if I’m able to visit her country again next year, as I’m wanting to, I will visit her again.
Forget it, move on.
Oh, I have. It was more of a fleeting, “what if” thought. I don’t sit and dwell over stuff from 7 years ago.
Depends really where you are. In formal business or social contexts, you still slap the sir or madam at the end of the sentence (which I do almost always with anybody anyway but I’m old-fashioned). Obviously, in such a situation you use a different type of syntax (it’s like going back to 19th century), so it doesn’t sound like, ‘would you like fries with that, sir?’ if this is what you have in mind. It’s not a, ‘you’re the boss,’ type of sir/madam, it’s a polite recognition of someone of more or less your own status. Half of the reason I insist on it is that I like my distance.
Hmmm… I understand your point, and agree in principle. However, where I live you don’t even call a CEO or president “Sir”. The culture is much more informal. If you get too formal, people might think you’re not being sincere or are trying to trick them.
For the record, with two buddies of mine, we used to insist on saying, ‘yo, homie!’ just loud enough that the rest of the law firm where we worked could hear it if it was somewhere around (which was almost as cool as greeting the insolvency partner as the Queen of the Damned). Too bad I left my slippers there when we split. A young meat eventually threw them away from what I’ve been told.
Awesome. 😃 Yeah, that’s actually the culture of most workplaces here.
 
Horrible advice to give to a male.

First, vocations don’t change (except when death releases one from the marital bond), states of life change. And the CCC recognizes marriage as a vocation (in fact, teh one that is written into our very nature, according to CCC 1603), whereas it does not recornize simply being single as a vocation (it is only a vocation within the context of “virginity for the sake of the kingdom”, which is further clarified as “priestly ministry” and “consecrated life”).

Second, it is the male’s role to pursue. Quoting a random bible verse (which will be a perfect segway to point three) to tell a male to stop looking only serves to squelch the male drive to pursue.

Third, in the same chapter of 1 Corinthians that you quoted, St. Paul also states that it is better to marry than burn, and that, to avoid immorality, everyone should have their own spouse.

As I tell people, if I knew I could handle lifelong celibacy, there is a chance I would be wearing a collar by now.
I agree. I think part of the problem is more men are not pursuing and they need to hear that when they get the green light from God, PURSUE! I am so tired of the whole “singleness is a vocation” (or the Protestant version that “singleness is a gift”). It is NOT true! Many people are single by circumstances and choice to an extent (ie choosing not to date an atheist or have premarital sex to keep a man). It is a state that we are in but it is not a vocation.
 
Types are limiting and immediate reaction is overrated. Besides, we can actually force ourselves to evolve a bit and have some influence over whom our system finds attractive based on our values and conscious choices.

For the record, I think the dear, trusted friend type a person may have might actually be closer to what marriage takes or means than the type that would supposedly sweep one off his feet. You know, gentle breeze vs big fire and all that.
I thank God that I’ve never had a physical type and have been attracted to the gamut (tall, short, athletic, stout, black, white, etc). I have always been attracted to character or personality traits and even though I know the kind of man I’m looking for, I realize my husband might not be into traveling abroad or going to the opera or going to black tie events or taking long walks like I am. But I am open to that if we connect on deeper spiritual levels.
 
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