Where is the CC?

[CWBetts]

What is the Charismatic Renewal? The term suggests that there was something decrepit that needs to be renewed. What is being spruced up?

The Charismatic gifts have been neglected. The Catholic Church is reclaiming from Pentecostal Protestants what is genuinely Catholic. The Charismatic gifts are part of our Tradition. Those Catholics who reject the Charismatic gifts are not traditional enough.

 

[Layman]

The Charismatic gifts have been neglected. The Catholic Church is reclaiming from Pentecostal Protestants what is genuinely Catholic. The Charismatic gifts are part of our Tradition. Those Catholics who reject the Charismatic gifts are not traditional enough.

Are they part of Tradition? I can’t recall any lay people or saints doing stuff like this in the history of the Roman Catholic Church i.e. inviting a spirit to enter them. Or services like this, full stop.

 

[wisdomseeker]

The Charismatic gifts have been neglected. The Catholic Church is reclaiming from Pentecostal Protestants what is genuinely Catholic. The Charismatic gifts are part of our Tradition. Those Catholics who reject the Charismatic gifts are not traditional enough.

i wish someone present to us some kind of evidence from the past where this sort of thing went on in the Church. please, someone come up with this evidence.
i just dont see it in Holy Scriptures or after the Apostles. who is testing the spirit on this sort of thing?

 

[rben20]

No, I am not. In fact, I have never uttered a critical word against the Tridentine Mass. Indeed, I support fully the talks with the SSPX which would make this Mass available to many more Catholics. I have always supported the efforts of those that wish to broaden it. However, even though this is the Traditional Forum, the original post was directed at a different liturgy. It is this that I am addressing.

I am not against anything except intellectual dishonesty and propaganda. In today’s age, anything can be made to look sensationalistic. I have always considered such exaggeration to be an offense against the Truth, and a tool more suited to the enemy than Christians. No, I do not accept the crisis mentality that some have here. This does not mean one bit that I oppose any worship or rite within the Catholic Church. The Church is loaded with problems, as it always has been. Probably things are a little worse now than at other times, but it is not nearly as bad as things have been in the past.

I understand why many see a crisis. I just would encourage everyone to put aside fear, judge what you read more critically and walk in Faith.

I respect that.

 

[mexico]

Are you talking about the video posted or the photos in the OP?

The photos…
What’s wrong with them?

 

[Melchior_1]

i wish someone present to us some kind of evidence from the past where this sort of thing went on in the Church. please, someone come up with this evidence.
i just dont see it in Holy Scriptures or after the Apostles. who is testing the spirit on this sort of thing?

Dude, it’s right there in 1 Corinthians 12.

 

[Layman]

I dunno. For 2000 years we’ve managed without attending a separate Pentecosal sacrament to receive the Holy Ghost. Unless you count Confirmation? But that’s conferred by a Bishop. I don’t think spiritual power is, ideally, self-conferred by emotionalism or an itinerant preacher, either.

Still, there is an old devotion which looks likely. Try it:

vaticaninexile.com/downloads/Novena_to_the_Holy_Ghost.pdf

 

[Melchior_1]

I dunno. For 2000 years we’ve managed without attending a separate Pentecosal sacrament to receive the Holy Ghost. Unless you count Confirmation? But that’s conferred by a Bishop. I don’t think spiritual power is, ideally, self-conferred by emotionalism or an itinerant preacher, either.

Still, there is an old devotion which looks likely. Try it:

vaticaninexile.com/downloads/Novena_to_the_Holy_Ghost.pdf

This isn’t a Sacrament so you shouldn’t call it one.

The Gifts of the Holy Spirit the one receives at Confirmation are received anyone who receives that Sacrament, whereas these “spiritual gifts” are given by God to build up the Church. Once again, read 1 Corinthians 12.

EDIT: I want to add that the Church **has **fostered these Gifts over the 2000 years. The gift of music, as well as the gift of craftsmanship.

 

[Layman]

This isn’t a Sacrament so you shouldn’t call it one.

The Gifts of the Holy Spirit the one receives at Confirmation are received anyone who receives that Sacrament, whereas these “spiritual gifts” are given by God to build up the Church. Once again, read 1 Corinthians 12.

EDIT: I want to add that the Church **has **fostered these Gifts over the 2000 years. The gift of music, as well as the gift of craftsmanship.

I did read it. Why are the gifts received at Confirmation different to those received at a Pentecostal service? What’s special about the latter? 1 Corinthians 12 doesn’t say how these gifts are granted or how to discern demonic from Godly gifts.

Is the following occuring at these services: People are prophesying and healing and the prophecies are helpful and true and the healings are genuinely miraculous?

 

[Melchior_1]

I did read it. Why are the gifts received at Confirmation different to those received at a Pentecostal service? What’s special about the latter? 1 Corinthians 12 doesn’t say how these gifts are granted or how to discern demonic from Godly gifts.

Is the following occuring at these services: People are prophesying and healing and the prophecies are helpful and true and the healings are genuinely miraculous?

First, why are you calling it a “Pentecostal service”? Why not call it “Adoration” or “Praise and Worship”, which often happens at these events (as seen int he video above)?

The gifts are used for two different purposes. The gifts everyone receives at Conformation are used to build up ourselves, whereas the gifts that 1 Cor. 12 talks about are used to build up the Body of Christ, and each receive in accordance to the will of God…

Prophesy and healing can happen at such services, yes.

 

[CWBetts]

i wish someone present to us some kind of evidence from the past where this sort of thing went on in the Church. please, someone come up with this evidence.
i just dont see it in Holy Scriptures or after the Apostles. who is testing the spirit on this sort of thing?

I suggest you read 1 Corinthins 12. As far is Church history, you just haven’t looked hard enough.

 

[Layman]

I call them Pentecostal because that’s what they are, aren’t they? Attendees try to invoke the Holy Ghost. Adoration occurs at the exhibition of the Body Of Christ. I don’t know what occurs at Praise And Worship.

*Acts 2:1-6:[4]

And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man **heard them speak in his own language.**[5]*

No gibberish there, I think.

 

[Melchior_1]

I call them Pentecostal because that’s what they are, aren’t they? Attendees try to invoke the Holy Ghost. Adoration occurs at the exhibition of the Body Of Christ. I don’t know what occurs at Praise And Worship.

*Acts 2:1-6:[4]

And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man **heard them speak in his own language.***[5]

No gibberish there, I think.

Latin sounds like gibberish to me. Any language that isn’t English does actually, so saying “it’s gibberish” is s not the best example to use.

That’s also why there’s a gift of interpreting tongues as well, so people can understand what others are saying.

You know, you can draw parallels with this; people do not like what they do not understand and do not like what they feel threatens them. I don’t see how a movement which calls people to embrace Biblical teachings could make people feel threatened, especially when our last two Popes have giving their approval.

 

[CWBetts]

I call them Pentecostal because that’s what they are, aren’t they? Attendees try to invoke the Holy Ghost. Adoration occurs at the exhibition of the Body Of Christ. I don’t know what occurs at Praise And Worship.

Mostly a bunch of singing and praying, a short sermon. That sort of thing.

 

[Layman]

Latin sounds like gibberish to me. Any language that isn’t English does actually, so saying “it’s gibberish” is s not the best example to use.

That’s also why there’s a gift of interpreting tongues as well, so people can understand what others are saying.

You know, you can draw parallels with this; people do not like what they do not understand and do not like what they feel threatens them. I don’t see how a movement which calls people to embrace Biblical teachings could make people feel threatened, especially when our last two Popes have giving their approval.

I think you’re missing the point. When the Holy Ghost descended on the apostles,* those foreigners, who heard them speak, understood them in their native tongue*. That’s a miracle.

Getting into ‘states’ and uttering words in a foreign language, which require interpretation, is not the same. I read that someone who studied this movement noted that the utterances of attendees tended to sound similar; they were cueing each other.

I can think of two movements which mirror the Charismatic: Voudou and Sufism, specifically the Whirling Dervishes. Attendees work themselves into ‘states’.

Compare the behaviour at Charismatic meetings with that of saints, like Padre Pio, who have exhibited miraculous powers. If you want such: pray, fast, abstain, meditate, mortify yourself and you will get them, as a byproduct of spiritual advancement. Occultists seek such powers and use dangerous techniques to get them. My understanding is that genuine mystics don’t: they can be a spiritual trap. If you get powers before you are spiritually purified, you can become a menace to yourself and your society.

At a baser level, you can whip yourself up into marvellous feelings and get sensations and phenomena. The fruits tell what’s worthy and what’s not.

Spiritualism is dangerous. Orgia is dangerous. Instead of the Church being re-invigourated by it, I’m worried that many of its members are making some very old mistakes.

 

[CWBetts]

I think you’re missing the point. When the Holy Ghost descended on the apostles,* those foreigners, who heard them speak, understood them in their native tongue*. That’s a miracle.

Getting into ‘states’ and uttering words in a foreign language, which require interpretation, is not the same. I read that someone who studied this movement noted that the utterances of attendees tended to sound similar; they were cueing each other.

I can think of two movements which mirror the Charismatic: Voudou and Sufism, specifically the Whirling Dervishes. Attendees work themselves into ‘states’.

Compare the behaviour at Charismatic meetings with that of saints, like Padre Pio, who have exhibited miraculous powers. If you want such: pray, fast, abstain, meditate, mortify yourself and you will get them, as a byproduct of spiritual advancement. Occultists seek such powers and use dangerous techniques to get them. My understanding is that genuine mystics don’t: they can be a spiritual trap. If you get powers before you are spiritually purified, you can become a menace to yourself and your society.

At a baser level, you can whip yourself up into marvellous feelings and get sensations and phenomena. The fruits tell what’s worthy and what’s not.

Spiritualism is dangerous. Orgia is dangerous. Instead of the Church being re-invigourated by it, I’m worried that many of its members are making some very old mistakes.

“Though I speak in tongues of man and angels, and have not love, i am nothing”
The key here is love. Charismatics are truly seeking the Power of the Holy Spirit. They are not making deals with demons, they re not practicing voodoo. To characterize them as such is at best uncharitable and at worst slanderous. Of course this would not be the first time the work of God is characterized as the work of Satan. The very same accusation was leveled at Jesus. Perhaps it is time for you to accept that God does not operate in your box.

 

[Melchior_1]

I think you’re missing the point. When the Holy Ghost descended on the apostles,* those foreigners, who heard them speak, understood them in their native tongue*. That’s a miracle.

Getting into ‘states’ and uttering words in a foreign language, which require interpretation, is not the same. I read that someone who studied this movement noted that the utterances of attendees tended to sound similar; they were cueing each other.

I can think of two movements which mirror the Charismatic: Voudou and Sufism, specifically the Whirling Dervishes. Attendees work themselves into ‘states’.

Compare the behaviour at Charismatic meetings with that of saints, like Padre Pio, who have exhibited miraculous powers. If you want such: pray, fast, abstain, meditate, mortify yourself and you will get them, as a byproduct of spiritual advancement. Occultists seek such powers and use dangerous techniques to get them. My understanding is that genuine mystics don’t: they can be a spiritual trap. If you get powers before you are spiritually purified, you can become a menace to yourself and your society.

At a baser level, you can whip yourself up into marvellous feelings and get sensations and phenomena. The fruits tell what’s worthy and what’s not.

Spiritualism is dangerous. Orgia is dangerous. Instead of the Church being re-invigourated by it, I’m worried that many of its members are making some very old mistakes.

I’m stepping out and need to leave, so I’ll address this later tonight. I do want to say one thing super quick;

You’ve totally just reminded me of something I’ve been thinking about lately. And despite our very different spiritualities, we can agree on one thing for sure (although I’m sure there are many other things we agree with);

There’s no such thing as a new heresy.

I mean, seriously. I’m reading a lot of St. Jerome right now and there’s stuff in there that he talks about (people denying Mary’s perpetual virginity, people claiming you cannot pray to the martyrs for example) which predates Protestant objections by 1100 years! Crazy stuff.

In that sense, I understand your concern completely. You’re worried that old heresies will come back with a fresh coat of paint, specifically New Age stuff (which is the Old Age trash with a new paint job). This is a valid concern, and is quite likely why initially Rome cautiously approved the movement at first. Overtime though, the Church has decided that the movement bears much fruit.

Like I said, I’ll reply to the other stuff later. Just wanted to make a small observation

 

[Layman]

“Though I speak in tongues of man and angels, and have not love, i am nothing”
The key here is love. Charismatics are truly seeking the Power of the Holy Spirit. They are not making deals with demons, they re not practicing voodoo. To characterize them as such is at best uncharitable and at worst slanderous. Of course this would not be the first time the work of God is characterized as the work of Satan. The very same accusation was leveled at Jesus. Perhaps it is time for you to accept that God does not operate in your box.

I did not say they were practicing voodoo or occultism. I said what they are doing is like that. If they are Invoking a spirit in an informal context, egging each other on and producing phenomena without performing genuine miracles, producing true, valuable prophecies and casting out devils, then what is the spiritual worth of such behaviour?

Tell you what: I think there’s a Charismatic group at my local church. I might just go and see what happens. But surely, if apostle-like events were occuring there, people would be fighting to get in? Even false revelations like Medjurgorje and the recent Knock dubiousness draw massive crowds.

Anyway, we’ll see.

 

[CWBetts]

I did not say they were practicing voodoo or occultism. I said what they are doing is like that. If they are Invoking a spirit in an informal context, egging each other on and producing phenomena without performing genuine miracles, producing true, valuable prophecies and casting out devils, then what is the spiritual worth of such behaviour?

Tell you what: I think there’s a Charismatic group at my local church. I might just go and see what happens. But surely, if apostle-like events were occuring there, people would be fighting to get in? Even false revelations like Medjurgorje and the recent Knock dubiousness draw massive crowds.

Anyway, we’ll see.

I would recommend that. I fully admit that there are those who call themselves Charismatic that are committing abuses. You will never hear me deny that. That is a danger that all movements within the Church have to contend with. Just like there are some in the Traditionalist movement that have carried things to an extreme, the same it true of the Charismatic Renewal. One thing to keep in mind is that the Charismatic movement simply does not fit with your spirituality. One of the beauties of the Catholic Faith is its legitimate diversity.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Dude, it’s right there in 1 Corinthians 12.

where? please tell me where does this happens? nuns(women) falling because the priests touches her head. please show this kind of Sermon in the Bible?