Where is the CC?

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wisdomseeker said:
where? please tell me where does this happens? nuns(women) falling because the priests touches her head. please show this kind of Sermon in the Bible?
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You do realize that we do not rely on scripture alone, don’t you?
 
Acts 2:1-6:[4]

And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.[5]

This was one time event that happened to convert people. this was not during the Mass in the Temple. this is what protestants do because they dont have the right direction to follow. protestants pick passage of the Bible and build a church on it. they do not know what they are doing. many Catholics have adopt this spirit of freedom. what Catholics do not realize is that they are just following idea of protestants, this free idea of free spirit is dangerous and it is a threatning to the Church. they are trying to substitute the Mass for this sort of thing. wake up. these Catholics are following groups who have worked all their lives to dismantle the CC. now and days the idea is that everything is ok as long as we do as what pleases us.
 
CWBetts said:
You do realize that we do not rely on scripture alone, don’t you?
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I was going to make a comment how it was pretty…“fundamentalist” to ask “where in the Bible does it say this”. I mean, nuns aren’t mentioned in the Bible at all so Bob’s your uncle.

But really though; the Bible is filled with people who get prayed over. Then in Acts there’s the opposite; where Peter lifts up a cripple and he is cured dramatically. Actually, the entirety of the miracles in Acts could be seen as something like this, especially considering not all the miracles performed were listed.
 
wisdomseeker said:
Acts 2:1-6:[4]

And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.[5]

This was one time event that happened to convert people. this was not during the Mass in the Temple. this is what protestants do because they dont have the right direction to follow. protestants pick passage of the Bible and build a church on it. they do not know what they are doing. many Catholics have adopt this spirit of freedom. what Catholics do not realize is that they are just following idea of protestants, this free idea of free spirit is dangerous and it is a threatning to the Church. they are trying to substitute the Mass for this sort of thing. wake up. these Catholics are following groups who have worked all their lives to dismantle the CC. now and days the idea is that everything is ok as long as we do as what pleases us.
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Wrong. If this was all you needed, then waht is the point of the rest of the Acts of the Apostles? The book is loaded with Charismatic Gifts, and St. Paul discusses them at length.
 
wisdomseeker said:
Acts 2:1-6:[4] - This was one time event that happened to convert people. this was not during the Mass in the Temple.
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If it was a one time event, why would Paul write about it multiple times after it happened? The first letter of the Corinthians happens well after Pentecost. If this was a “one time only” thing, Paul wouldn’t have encouraged them. Rather, he would have shut them down.

Oh, and they didn’t have Mass at the Temple during that time. Unless they made a death pact or something.

*these Catholics are following groups who have worked all their lives to dismantle the CC. *

Are you accusing me of trying to dismantle the Church?
 
Melchior said:
If it was a one time event, why would Paul write about it multiple times after it happened? The first letter of the Corinthians happens well after Pentecost. If this was a “one time only” thing, Paul wouldn’t have encouraged them. Rather, he would have shut them down.

Oh, and they didn’t have Mass at the Temple during that time. Unless they made a death pact or something.

*these Catholics are following groups who have worked all their lives to dismantle the CC. *

Are you accusing me of trying to dismantle the Church?
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if you follow this movement yes. you might not realize.
you say it is not one time event, then tell me, did you see fire like tongues coming upon their heads? do you see them speaking different languages? you do realize the importance of the Mass, dont you?
 
Melchior said:
I’m stepping out and need to leave, so I’ll address this later tonight. I do want to say one thing super quick;

You’ve totally just reminded me of something I’ve been thinking about lately. And despite our very different spiritualities, we can agree on one thing for sure (although I’m sure there are many other things we agree with);

There’s no such thing as a new heresy.

I mean, seriously. I’m reading a lot of St. Jerome right now and there’s stuff in there that he talks about (people denying Mary’s perpetual virginity, people claiming you cannot pray to the martyrs for example) which predates Protestant objections by 1100 years! Crazy stuff.

In that sense, I understand your concern completely. You’re worried that old heresies will come back with a fresh coat of paint, specifically New Age stuff (which is the Old Age trash with a new paint job). This is a valid concern, and is quite likely why initially Rome cautiously approved the movement at first. Overtime though, the Church has decided that the movement bears much fruit.

Like I said, I’ll reply to the other stuff later. Just wanted to make a small observation 🙂
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i dont know how you continuosly talk about the holy father supporting such a thing.
the holy father says the CC will be very small, we will start again. how can he say that when this movement is bearing so much fruit? there is contracdition in what you are saying and what the holy father is saying. i am not arguing with you, i am just having a discussion on this matter.
 
wisdomseeker said:
if you follow this movement yes. you might not realize.
you say it is not one time event, then tell me, did you see fire like tongues coming upon their heads? do you see them speaking different languages? you do realize the importance of the Mass, dont you?
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So far on this board, without people even have met me I’ve been called; a heretic, a modernist, and now I’m dismantling the Church. I should put that in my forum signature.

Pentecost itself was a one-time event with the tongues of flame, however that is not the only time in Scripture the Holy Spirit has touched the Apostles and others. Like I said, the people of Corinth were clearly using these gifts and Paul did not tell them to stop. Rather, he instructed them on how to use them and encouraged them to use them.

Do you mean to say that St. Paul, who wrote most of our New Testament, was in error when he wrote his letters?

keep in mind throughout the last 2000 years many Saints and holy people had these gifts. We’ve had several miracles, prophecies, excellent writings, and music the last 2000 years. These happened in part because of these gifts.
  • you do realize the importance of the Mass, dont you?*
Of course. Just because someone believes in something different than you doesn’t mean they don’t understand the importance of Mass, you know.
 
wisdomseeker said:
i dont know how you continuosly talk about the holy father supporting such a thing.
the holy father says the CC will be very small, we will start again. how can he say that when this movement is bearing so much fruit? there is contracdition in what you are saying and what the holy father is saying. i am not arguing with you, i am just having a discussion on this matter.
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ewtn.com/expert/answers/charismatic_renewal.htm has several comments from several Church leaders. Of note;
For his part, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Prefect for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, has added his voice to the Pope’s in acknowledging the good occurring in the Charismatic Renewal and providing some cautions. In a forward to a book by Cardinal Suenens, at that time the Pope’s delegate to the Charismatic Renewal, the Prefect comments on the Post-Conciliar period stating,
*
At the heart of a world imbued with a rationalistic skepticism, a new experience of the Holy Spirit suddenly burst forth. And, since then, that experience has assumed a breadth of a worldwide Renewal movement. What the New Testament tells us about the charisms - which were seen as visible signs of the coming of the Spirit - is not just ancient history, over and done with, for it is once again becoming extremely topical.
*
Speaking of the book’s subject, renewal and the powers of darkness, he says,
*
What is the relation between personal experience and the common faith of the Church? Both factors are important: a dogmatic faith unsupported by personal experience remains empty; mere personal experience unrelated to the faith of the Church remains blind.*

Finally, he urges those who read the book to pay special attention to the author’s double plea,
  • … to those responsible for the ecclesiastical ministry - from parish priests to bishops - not to let the Renewal pass them by but to welcome it fully; and on the other (hand) … to the members of the Renewal to cherish and maintain their link with the whole Church and with the charisms of their pastors. *[Renewal and the Powers of Darkness, Leo Cardinal Suenens (Ann Arbor: Servant Books, 1983)]
 
Melchior said:
Dude, English. No offense or anything, but I’m being serious when I say it’s all I know,
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i have not seen the book in english. but it should be something like “remembrances of my life.” let me know if you find something like that. for i dont know how this title is said in english. words changes from one language to another.
 
CWBetts said:
One thing to keep in mind is that the Charismatic movement simply does not fit with your spirituality. One of the beauties of the Catholic Faith is its legitimate diversity.
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Just to be argumentative 😉 : I used to be interested, in a literary way, with occultism. Charismaticism might have been interesting to me years ago if I thought its attendees were going to make safe, genuine contact with Godly beings and get mystical powers. Based on my limited experiences and what I’ve read, however, I think it’s dodgy.

Key aspects of saints acquiring spiritual powers are self-denial, abstinence, prayer, fasting, meditation, solitude and caritas. **I think if you make sacrifices to our God you can get solid benefits back in return; something for something, the most basic contract. ** If you compare the lives of saints and the activities of ecstatic cults and then the Charismatic Renewal, the result is … ummm … welllllll … pass, methinks!

Still, I’ll go have a look see. I’ll put my sociological hat on 😉
 
Layman said:
Just to be argumentative 😉 : I used to be interested, in a literary way, with occultism. Charismaticism might have been interesting to me years ago if I thought its attendees were going to make safe, genuine contact with Godly beings and get mystical powers. Based on my limited experiences and what I’ve read, however, I think it’s dodgy.

Key aspects of saints acquiring spiritual powers are self-denial, abstinence, prayer, fasting, meditation, solitude and caritas. I think if you make sacrifices to our God you can get solid benefits back in return; something for something, the most basic contract. If you compare the lives of saints and the activities of ecstatic cults and then the Charismatic Renewal, the result is … ummm … welllllll … pass, methinks!

Still, I’ll go have a look see. I’ll put my sociological hat on 😉
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As much as we disagree on things, I certainly have a large amount of respect for you that you’re going to go check it out. Reminds me of the time I first visited the FSSP parish in town 🙂

Hopefully they aren’t one of those fringe groups who are way out there though, because I’d hate for you to have a negative experience based on select wackos.
 
Layman said:
Just to be argumentative 😉 : I used to be interested, in a literary way, with occultism. Charismaticism might have been interesting to me years ago if I thought its attendees were going to make safe, genuine contact with Godly beings and get mystical powers. Based on my limited experiences and what I’ve read, however, I think it’s dodgy.

Key aspects of saints acquiring spiritual powers are self-denial, abstinence, prayer, fasting, meditation, solitude and caritas. I think if you make sacrifices to our God you can get solid benefits back in return; something for something, the most basic contract. If you compare the lives of saints and the activities of ecstatic cults and then the Charismatic Renewal, the result is … ummm … welllllll … pass, methinks!

Still, I’ll go have a look see. I’ll put my sociological hat on 😉
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As I have said many times on several threads, I am not active in the movement. It just isn’t me (which does draw some incredulous reactions from some of my friends who are active in the movement). I am a fairly traditional mainstream Catholic. By this I mean that if given a choice between a Charismatic Mass, the Extraordinary Form, or Mainstream Novus Ordo, I will usually pick the Novus Ordo. If My only choices are the TLM or a Charismatic Mass. I will go to the TLM. Charismatic worship just isn’t for me, though i know some prayerful, holy Catholics who are very Charismatic. Catholicism is actually a spectrum of worship styles, yet all keeping with the same theology.
 
Melchior said:
Hopefully they aren’t one of those fringe groups who are way out there though, because I’d hate for you to have a negative experience based on select wackos.
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No, no, they’re mentioned in the local church newsletter and meet in a church hall, so I doubt they’re wacky. If they’re still operating, it’s only down the road, so might as well have a gander.
 
CWBetts said:
You do realize that we do not rely on scripture alone, don’t you?
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It is legitimate to ask where something is in the Bible when the appeal argument is made that a practice was done in the Early Church, as found in the Bible. If all this slain stuff was in the Early Church, where is the evidence, biblical or extrabiblical, that this is the case? Oh, and the only time the language of tongues is clarified beyond the phrase “speaking in tongues”, it was a known language. We can assume that later on what Paul addressed was an unknown language, but that would be just an assumption.

For the record, no one has ever shown evidence that what is speaking in tongues today constitutes a language, and such evidence would be fairly easy to produce if it were a real language. I am all for those who want to practice the spiritual gifts, but dubious about some of the things brought over from the Pentacostal movement. They are new. To call them traditional begs for the evidence to be shown from history that this is Catholicism. So, whether from the Bible, the Church fathers, or Church writings, this should be easy to show, if it were true.
 
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