Where is the CC?

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excelsus said:
Wait, drums are okay but Mozart is not?
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I have a hard time reconciling that people who have such fierce opinions of “Sacred Music” and what is and isn’t acceptable to be done at Mass music-wise have no issue with a Mason’s music being played within a Catholic Church. I also have a hard time understanding how people can justify and handwave his Masonic activity and influences just because they prefer that style of music, yet flagrantly condemn others.

Ironically, Mozart actually composed for the Church and wrote pieces with drums in mind.

(This is also a bit off-topic. But it’s not like it matters, as this thread will probably me closed in a day or two).
 
CWBetts said:
Ah yes, the wonderful Chick-like tactic of photographs with no indication of context.
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To be fair, the context in some of those photos are fairly obvious.

What gets lost in things is;
  1. Abuses happened pre-1962, they just weren’t reported as much because there wasn’t the same methods of communications as there are now.
  2. Some people apparently assume to favor the OF and being involved with certain movements seem to automatically mean you are against the EF and aren’t a true Catholic.
 
Melchior said:
To be fair, the context in some of those photos are fairly obvious.

What gets lost in things is;
  1. Abuses happened pre-1962, they just weren’t reported as much because there wasn’t the same methods of communications as there are now.
  2. Some people apparently assume to favor the OF and being involved with certain movements seem to automatically mean you are against the EF and aren’t a true Catholic.
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I disagree. Some of the things are inappropriate, but most of them have nothing indicating it is a Catholic Mass. A picture is worth 1000 words, but without context, those words are likely to be wrong. (BTW I love photography, and I understand the necessity to provide context even for the “most obvious” of photos)
 
Melchior said:
This is not counting the fact that Pope Paul VI and several others within the Magisteruim developed what we know now as the Ordinary Form, which is the same Rite as the EF. To slander one is to slander both.

Are thee abuses? Yes. There are abuses in both Forms, always has been. If you think what is now known as the EF has been abuse free all of these years you are sadly mistaken, it’s just back then we didn’t have message boards to post on and the Internet to share information quickly. You, and others, lose a lot of credibility when you do this.
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I don’t know that Pope Paul VI developed the N.O. That was surely done by Bugnini and committees. They’re not the same rite, if you read them. They certainly are not said they same way, either.

The argument that there were abuses in the TLM, so that excuses the abuses in the N.O., doesn’t work. The only ‘abuse’ I’ve heard of the TLM was that it was said fast. I’ve read that if you say the N.O. with a single server, as in a Low Mass, and don’t labour it, you can do it in ten to fifteen minutes. If you read it, there’s simply less in it.

The N.O. is banal. That’s a terrible thing in a mystical rite. To take out the beautiful prayers and then remove the sacred (taboo) elements - altar rails, ad-orientem, chant, incense, men only - is perverse.

One good thing. Modernists have now, or should be, thoroughly appeased. They have a rite they can do whatever they want with. Let’s see how that works out.
 
Since the OP has close ties with Brazil and is familiar with the website, I’m willing to believe he’s giving us accurate information. I know EWTN has had on guests that have spoken of the sad state of affairs in the Brazilian Church.

That video clip speaks for itself. People are trance-dancing in a sacred church, treating it as though it were a nightclub - all under the watchful eye of a priest in his vestments. Horrifying.

Oh, and BINGO on an altar?? Who could even dream this stuff up? It is indeed evil.
 
Layman said:
I don’t know that Pope Paul VI developed the N.O. That was surely done by Bugnini and committees.
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The Pope’s name is on it, the buck stops with him. Period.
Layman said:
They’re not the same rite, if you read them. They certainly are not said they same way, either.
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I did read them, and they are different. But they are still the same Rite, with two different Forms. You can spin it any way you want but it’s still going t be two equally valid Forms, one Rite.
Layman said:
The argument that there were abuses in the TLM, so that excuses the abuses in the N.O., doesn’t work. The only ‘abuse’ I’ve heard of the TLM was that it was said fast. I’ve read that if you say the N.O. with a single server, as in a Low Mass, and don’t labour it, you can do it in ten to fifteen minutes. If you read it, there’s simply less in it.
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It’s not an argument, it’s a statement of fact. There were abuses pre-1962, despite “traditionalists” best efforts to portray the era as a Golden Age of Catholicism.
Layman said:
The N.O. is banal. That’s a terrible thing in a mystical rite. To take out the beautiful prayers and then remove the sacred (taboo) elements - altar rails, ad-orientem, chant, incense, men only - is perverse.
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You can prefer the EF, it’s within your right to do so. You want TLM then fill your boots! But to call the OF “perverse” and “banal” makes you no different than the people you are trying to fight against. You have become one of them, albeit with different beliefs.

You can have a preference. But because it’s two forms in ONE Rite, when you call one Form perverse you’re slandering the Rite it is a part of, which means you’ve just slandered your favored Form.

Yes or No: Do you deny the validity of the Ordinary Form?

EDIT: Ironically, those who support COTT often say “it’s the ordinary way to do it!”. Some who oppose EMHC say “the Deacon is the ordinary minister of Communion!”

Yet several of these people oppose the Ordinary Form.

Irony.
 
Melchior said:
(continued…)
So what I need, what I really need, is “traditionalists” praying for all my kids and for my family rather than casting judgments on the Ordinary Form.

Think y’all can do that?
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We can do both. They’re not mutually exclusive.
 
Truth_Fully said:
Since the OP has close ties with Brazil and is familiar with the website, I’m willing to believe he’s giving us accurate information. I know EWTN has had on guests that have spoken of the sad state of affairs in the Brazilian Church.

That video clip speaks for itself. People are trance-dancing in a sacred church, treating it as though it were a nightclub - all under the watchful eye of a priest in his vestments. Horrifying.

Oh, and BINGO on an altar?? Who could even dream this stuff up? It is indeed evil.
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thank you. some people just refuse to see the Truth. not only that but i also speak with my cousin in brasil, who testifies that a priest went in a cruise to evangelize and was seeing dancing in the disco in the ship. when he celebrated the Mass, he did not wear any vestments.
 
Melchior said:
Can you translate some of the text to English please?

This could be a Healing Mass which, before anyone jumps the gun, are permitted by the Church.

Of course, that implies this is actually Mass. This seems more like Adoration, since the Priest is walking around with the Blessed Sacrament.
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sorry, i cant understand anything he is saying. it is too noisy.
 
wisdomseeker said:
sorry, i cant understand anything he is saying. it is too noisy.
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Yeah, a few hundred people praising God aloud will do that.

How about the title of the video and the words on the blue screen at the start?
 
Melchior said:
Yeah, a few hundred people praising God aloud will do that.

How about the title of the video and the words on the blue screen at the start?
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yep!
Repouso no Espirito - Igreja Catolica vivendo o Fogo e a Unção de Pentecostes 1/

this says: rest in the Spirit. CC living the fire of the Pentecosts.
 
wisdomseeker said:
yep!
Repouso no Espirito - Igreja Catolica vivendo o Fogo e a Unção de Pentecostes 1/

this says: rest in the Spirit. CC living the fire of the Pentecosts.
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My Portuguese is pretty much exclusively limited to what I can puzzle out from other Romance languages I know, but isn’t Unção “anointing”? “Catholic Church living the Fire and the Anointing of Pentecost,” something like that? We seem to be witnessing the anointing.
 
MarkThompson said:
My Portuguese is pretty much exclusively limited to what I can puzzle out from other Romance languages I know, but isn’t Unção “anointing”? “Catholic Church living the Fire and the Anointing of Pentecost,” something like that? We seem to be witnessing the anointing.
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correct. Annoiting.
 
Thanks Wisdomseeker and Mark.

“Rest in the Spirit - Church Catholic living the Fire and the Unction of Pentecostes” is what ye ol’ Bablfish says it is.

Anyway, my original point stands; this isn’t as bad as what some say it is, and it’s actually quite approved and licit.

And I still don’t think that six minute clip is a Mass, but more Adoration.
 
Melchior said:
Thanks Wisdomseeker and Mark.

“Rest in the Spirit - Church Catholic living the Fire and the Unction of Pentecostes” is what ye ol’ Bablfish says it is.

Anyway, my original point stands; this isn’t as bad as what some say it is, and it’s actually quite approved and licit.

And I still don’t think that six minute clip is a Mass, but more Adoration.
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Well, and of course, there are the things we never quite know. For instance, they seem to be in a gymnasium. Is that because they considered being in a church “too holy” and didn’t want to be in such a sacred space? That would be bad. Or is it because they were just holding an anointing service of this kind, and didn’t want to intrude on the sacred sanctuary of the church for it? That would be good, or at least well-intentioned. (Look at the comments above, “They are defiling the church with their …”). Or are they poor, and haven’t been able to build a church yet? Did their church burn down, and this is what they’ve been able to scrape together on short notice?

We don’t know, but one thing I know is that the gymnasium setting certainly gives this, on the surface, the look of being shoddy and irreverent. How justified is that kind of snap judgment?
 
MarkThompson said:
Well, and of course, there are the things we never quite know. For instance, they seem to be in a gymnasium. Is that because they considered being in a church “too holy” and didn’t want to be in such a sacred space? That would be bad. Or is it because they were just holding an anointing service of this kind, and didn’t want to intrude on the sacred sanctuary of the church for it? That would be good, or at least well-intentioned. (Look at the comments above, “They are defiling the church with their …”). Or are they poor, and haven’t been able to build a church yet? Did their church burn down, and this is what they’ve been able to scrape together on short notice?

We don’t know, but one thing I know is that the gymnasium setting certainly gives this, on the surface, the look of being shoddy and irreverent. How justified is that kind of snap judgment?
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There are legitimate reasons for holding Masses in a gymnasium. At FUS, masses for the conferences and Campus-Wide Masses (like the ones during Orientation week) are always in the gymnasium because the chapel is just too small! With 2400 students, we need A LOT of space!
 
CWBetts said:
There are legitimate reasons for holding Masses in a gymnasium. At FUS, masses for the conferences and Campus-Wide Masses (like the ones during Orientation week) are always in the gymnasium because the chapel is just too small! With 2400 students, we need A LOT of space!
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Also, if your neighbour is flailing during a F.O.P. it helps to have a decent amount of space between you and them. Trust me, I was on the receiving end once - NOT PLEASANT. 😛
 
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