A
Aramis
Guest
Because it was the decision of the council fathers of the First Ecumenical Council.
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L
Layman
Guest
Is that the Council of Nicea? If so, then we secular Roman Catholics, having performed a devotional obeisance entirely consistent with Western culture, should now drop it, 1500+ years after said Council, for reasons of … fashion(?), archeology(?), … makes a nice change(?)Because it was the decision of the council fathers of the First Ecumenical Council.
This I do not understand. It’s like the R.C. Church decided to evicerate its own rite one fine morning. Add all the changes together, compare them with the old rite and the pre-1940’s Church and it’s like we’ve entered the Matrix.
L
Layman
Guest
PS: Went to a Charismatic service locally at the weekend. I was the only non-black there. The singing was nice. Reminded me of soundtracks to films about South Africa. Good harmonies.
I thought I heard, at some junctures, a babel rising to a crescendo. There was clapping and an enthusisatic style of preaching, by laymen (not from the pulpit). Reminded me of what I’ve seen in films about American Protestant worship meetings. I think I can see how this sort of service could usher ecstatic-style worship into Catholicism. You can get high off of singing, dancing, chanting and fervour.
If it’s controlled by wise elders who know precisely what effects they want to achieve, you might be alright. If it’s some happy amateur or Protestant-style tent-revivalist, maybe not.
This particular service was in a Church. Christ was in the tabernacle. The question popped into my mind. “He’s there. How can we get near him?” I think it’s as simple as that. I think the old devotions and the TLM are a safer, simpler way of doing it. Do what the Saints did. No need to reinvent the wheel. Hard, but simple!
PS: I mentioned my attendance to a traditionalist pal.
He said “We have that in our church”.
I said “Really?”.
“Yes it seems to be mainly black people or Phillipino’s who are keen on it”.
I said “I’m surprised, since your priest is something of a traditionalist”.
He replied “If we didn’t offer it, they’d go to the Protestant church down the road”.
I replied “???”.
I think I’ve read elsewhere you can become keen on the Charismatic Experience as an end in itself. Discuss.
Politically correct qualifier: I mention the ethnicity of participants for sociological reasons and as background. It’s just interesting. Heh, kind of hard to imagine middle-class, white English matrons going in for this. Just sayin’.
I thought I heard, at some junctures, a babel rising to a crescendo. There was clapping and an enthusisatic style of preaching, by laymen (not from the pulpit). Reminded me of what I’ve seen in films about American Protestant worship meetings. I think I can see how this sort of service could usher ecstatic-style worship into Catholicism. You can get high off of singing, dancing, chanting and fervour.
If it’s controlled by wise elders who know precisely what effects they want to achieve, you might be alright. If it’s some happy amateur or Protestant-style tent-revivalist, maybe not.
This particular service was in a Church. Christ was in the tabernacle. The question popped into my mind. “He’s there. How can we get near him?” I think it’s as simple as that. I think the old devotions and the TLM are a safer, simpler way of doing it. Do what the Saints did. No need to reinvent the wheel. Hard, but simple!
PS: I mentioned my attendance to a traditionalist pal.
He said “We have that in our church”.
I said “Really?”.
“Yes it seems to be mainly black people or Phillipino’s who are keen on it”.
I said “I’m surprised, since your priest is something of a traditionalist”.
He replied “If we didn’t offer it, they’d go to the Protestant church down the road”.
I replied “???”.
I think I’ve read elsewhere you can become keen on the Charismatic Experience as an end in itself. Discuss.
Politically correct qualifier: I mention the ethnicity of participants for sociological reasons and as background. It’s just interesting. Heh, kind of hard to imagine middle-class, white English matrons going in for this. Just sayin’.
D
Dempsey1919
Guest
**The Church is in crisis but do not despair. The gates of Hell shall not prevail. Stay away from these abusive Masses because they will damage your faith. You should attend the Extraordinary Form of the Mass. If you live in Brazil you should go to the Personal Apostolic Administration of Saint John Mary Vianney in Campos.
If you prefer the Ordinary Form, then find a reverent Mass in your local area. Stay away from these disgraceful Masses and those who hold heretical views. Pray for them, but do not become influenced by them. **
If you prefer the Ordinary Form, then find a reverent Mass in your local area. Stay away from these disgraceful Masses and those who hold heretical views. Pray for them, but do not become influenced by them. **
W
wisdomseeker
Guest
i live in florida, it is not much better here. i wish we had a Latin Mass in my town. i dont know when this will happened.**The Church is in crisis but do not despair. The gates of Hell shall not prevail. Stay away from these abusive Masses because they will damage your faith. You should attend the Extraordinary Form of the Mass. If you live in Brazil you should go to the Personal Apostolic Administration of Saint John Mary Vianney in Campos.
If you prefer the Ordinary Form, then find a reverent Mass in your local area. Stay away from these disgraceful Masses and those who hold heretical views. Pray for them, but do not become influenced by them. **
D
Dempsey1919
Guest
You could always ask your priest if he will begin celebrating the EF Mass?i wish we had a Latin Mass in my town.
D
dskysmine
Guest
We should read from the second vatican council:
“The rite of the Mass is to be revised in such a way that the intrinsic nature and purpose of its several parts, as also the connection between them, may be more clearly manifested, and that devout and active participation by the faithful may be more easily achieved.
For this purpose the rites are to be simplified, due care being taken to preserve their substance; elements which, with the passage of time, came to be duplicated, or were added with but little advantage, are now to be discarded; other elements which have suffered injury through accidents of history are now to be restored to the vigor which they had in the days of the holy Fathers, as may seem useful or necessary.”
Some statistics:
About the old testament
"Before Vatican II, each Catholic Mass included only two biblical readings, which were normally referred to as “The Epistle” (since the first reading was almost always taken from one of the New Testament letters) and “The Gospel.” Readings from the Old Testament were never used on Sundays, but only at the Easter Vigil, the Vigil of Pentecost, the feast of Epiphany and its octave, during Holy Week, and on some weekdays (esp. Ember days, weekdays of Lent, the feasts of some saints, and some votive Masses).
Since Vatican II, Masses on Sundays and major feast days include three biblical readings, the first of which is usually taken from the Old Testament (except during the Easter Season, when the first reading is from the Acts of the Apostles). The OT reading is normally very brief and thematically related to the Gospel reading of the day, so there is no detectable order or semi-continuous pattern from one Sunday to the next. Weekday Masses usually have only two readings, the first of which is taken from either the OT or the NT, according to a two-year weekday cycle.
"
About the New Testament
"Before Vatican II, the same readings were used each year for the various Masses in the Roman Missal. The first reading was usually from one of Paul’s Letters or the Catholic Epistles. The Gospel readings were most often taken from Matthew or John, less frequently from Luke, and only rarely from Mark.
Since Vatican II, much more of the New Testament is included in the Lectionary for Mass. The Acts of the Apostles is used as the first reading on the Sundays and weekdays during the Easter season. The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke are read semi-continuously on the Sundays of Ordinary Time on a three-year cycle, while passages from the Gospel of John are used mostly during the seasons of Lent and Easter and on several major feast days. Excerpts from all other NT books and letters are used as the second reading at Masses on Sundays and major feasts according to a three-year cycle, and/or weekday Masses on a two-year cycle. (Click on any of the previous underlined links for more details.)
"
It seems to me that the OF came to help us better understand what happens in the Mass and the importance of God’s Word.
We should all read the Catholic encyclopedia on what is indeed Tradition.
Take care,
Daniel
“The rite of the Mass is to be revised in such a way that the intrinsic nature and purpose of its several parts, as also the connection between them, may be more clearly manifested, and that devout and active participation by the faithful may be more easily achieved.
For this purpose the rites are to be simplified, due care being taken to preserve their substance; elements which, with the passage of time, came to be duplicated, or were added with but little advantage, are now to be discarded; other elements which have suffered injury through accidents of history are now to be restored to the vigor which they had in the days of the holy Fathers, as may seem useful or necessary.”
Some statistics:
About the old testament
"Before Vatican II, each Catholic Mass included only two biblical readings, which were normally referred to as “The Epistle” (since the first reading was almost always taken from one of the New Testament letters) and “The Gospel.” Readings from the Old Testament were never used on Sundays, but only at the Easter Vigil, the Vigil of Pentecost, the feast of Epiphany and its octave, during Holy Week, and on some weekdays (esp. Ember days, weekdays of Lent, the feasts of some saints, and some votive Masses).
Since Vatican II, Masses on Sundays and major feast days include three biblical readings, the first of which is usually taken from the Old Testament (except during the Easter Season, when the first reading is from the Acts of the Apostles). The OT reading is normally very brief and thematically related to the Gospel reading of the day, so there is no detectable order or semi-continuous pattern from one Sunday to the next. Weekday Masses usually have only two readings, the first of which is taken from either the OT or the NT, according to a two-year weekday cycle.
"
About the New Testament
"Before Vatican II, the same readings were used each year for the various Masses in the Roman Missal. The first reading was usually from one of Paul’s Letters or the Catholic Epistles. The Gospel readings were most often taken from Matthew or John, less frequently from Luke, and only rarely from Mark.
Since Vatican II, much more of the New Testament is included in the Lectionary for Mass. The Acts of the Apostles is used as the first reading on the Sundays and weekdays during the Easter season. The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke are read semi-continuously on the Sundays of Ordinary Time on a three-year cycle, while passages from the Gospel of John are used mostly during the seasons of Lent and Easter and on several major feast days. Excerpts from all other NT books and letters are used as the second reading at Masses on Sundays and major feasts according to a three-year cycle, and/or weekday Masses on a two-year cycle. (Click on any of the previous underlined links for more details.)
"
It seems to me that the OF came to help us better understand what happens in the Mass and the importance of God’s Word.
We should all read the Catholic encyclopedia on what is indeed Tradition.
Take care,
Daniel
W
wisdomseeker
Guest
are you kidding, i already did. he knows latin really well but he hates the Latin Mass. i asked him one time and he told me, Never!You could always ask your priest if he will begin celebrating the EF Mass?
W
wisdomseeker
Guest
but the problem is that much more was added to it. not just the OT but many innovations that was not there before. in nowhere in this document mention any of the changes that is going today. in fact, Paul the VI called the new Mass, something something like prophane. he wept and said that the “smoke of satan had entered the Church.”We should read from the second vatican council:
“The rite of the Mass is to be revised in such a way that the intrinsic nature and purpose of its several parts, as also the connection between them, may be more clearly manifested, and that devout and active participation by the faithful may be more easily achieved.
For this purpose the rites are to be simplified, due care being taken to preserve their substance; elements which, with the passage of time, came to be duplicated, or were added with but little advantage, are now to be discarded; other elements which have suffered injury through accidents of history are now to be restored to the vigor which they had in the days of the holy Fathers, as may seem useful or necessary.”
Some statistics:
About the old testament
"Before Vatican II, each Catholic Mass included only two biblical readings, which were normally referred to as “The Epistle” (since the first reading was almost always taken from one of the New Testament letters) and “The Gospel.” Readings from the Old Testament were never used on Sundays, but only at the Easter Vigil, the Vigil of Pentecost, the feast of Epiphany and its octave, during Holy Week, and on some weekdays (esp. Ember days, weekdays of Lent, the feasts of some saints, and some votive Masses).
Since Vatican II, Masses on Sundays and major feast days include three biblical readings, the first of which is usually taken from the Old Testament (except during the Easter Season, when the first reading is from the Acts of the Apostles). The OT reading is normally very brief and thematically related to the Gospel reading of the day, so there is no detectable order or semi-continuous pattern from one Sunday to the next. Weekday Masses usually have only two readings, the first of which is taken from either the OT or the NT, according to a two-year weekday cycle.
"
About the New Testament
"Before Vatican II, the same readings were used each year for the various Masses in the Roman Missal. The first reading was usually from one of Paul’s Letters or the Catholic Epistles. The Gospel readings were most often taken from Matthew or John, less frequently from Luke, and only rarely from Mark.
Since Vatican II, much more of the New Testament is included in the Lectionary for Mass. The Acts of the Apostles is used as the first reading on the Sundays and weekdays during the Easter season. The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke are read semi-continuously on the Sundays of Ordinary Time on a three-year cycle, while passages from the Gospel of John are used mostly during the seasons of Lent and Easter and on several major feast days. Excerpts from all other NT books and letters are used as the second reading at Masses on Sundays and major feasts according to a three-year cycle, and/or weekday Masses on a two-year cycle. (Click on any of the previous underlined links for more details.)
"
It seems to me that the OF came to help us better understand what happens in the Mass and the importance of God’s Word.
We should all read the Catholic encyclopedia on what is indeed Tradition.
Take care,
Daniel
the readings is fine, what is not fine is that the modernists took advantage and changed the Mass without authority. where is the documents that says that altar rails should be removed? where is the document that says that the priest should face the people? and so on?
D
dskysmine
Guest
The Roman Missal states:
“The altar should be built apart from the wall, in such a way that it is possible to walk around it easily and that Mass can be celebrated at it facing the people, which is desirable wherever possible.”
I think you are making “too much” drama about this. If people are educated and know what the signs are and what they remind us of I think is the most important thing.
The missal states that a signal “offers a particular opportunity of deepening the
understanding of the mystery in which the faithful take part”.
It stands to reason that we don’t do these things because we have to and they were always like this… They have a meaning! There are reasons for them.
If the altar is placed detached from the wall and has more room for the ministers behind the altar does it mean they should be facing the people? no. Does it stop them from being there? no. Why does the priest even face the people? For the most part there are specific prayers and moments in mass that the priest has to be facing the public.
There are other reasons I could state… I don’t see why the fuss is about. As long as we respect the signs and the Holy Eucharisty there are many ways to express ourselves in worship to God.
“The altar should be built apart from the wall, in such a way that it is possible to walk around it easily and that Mass can be celebrated at it facing the people, which is desirable wherever possible.”
I think you are making “too much” drama about this. If people are educated and know what the signs are and what they remind us of I think is the most important thing.
The missal states that a signal “offers a particular opportunity of deepening the
understanding of the mystery in which the faithful take part”.
It stands to reason that we don’t do these things because we have to and they were always like this… They have a meaning! There are reasons for them.
If the altar is placed detached from the wall and has more room for the ministers behind the altar does it mean they should be facing the people? no. Does it stop them from being there? no. Why does the priest even face the people? For the most part there are specific prayers and moments in mass that the priest has to be facing the public.
There are other reasons I could state… I don’t see why the fuss is about. As long as we respect the signs and the Holy Eucharisty there are many ways to express ourselves in worship to God.
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