where is the historical church founded by Jesus Christ?

[joe370]

Question for non-Catholics: I believe that all Protestant churches, the Catholic church and the Eastern Orthodox church comprise the mystical Body, the Church(es) (as opposed to church) - to which Jesus Christ is the Head and Savior. However they are all isolated autonomous churches.

If all of the isolated autonomous PC’s are churches founded by men (as opposed to God, on Pentecost, in Jerusalem, circa AD 33) - and the autonomous EOC and the autonomous CC are churches founded by men (as opposed to God, on Pentecost, in Jerusalem, circa AD 33) - then where, in the world today, is the historical church of Matthew 16, founded by Jesus Christ on Pentecost, in Jerusalem, circa AD 33?

 

[Alveus_Lacuna]

If all of the isolated autonomous PC’s are churches founded by men (as opposed to God, on Pentecost, in Jerusalem, circa AD 33) - and the autonomous EOC and the autonomous CC are churches founded by men (as opposed to God, on Pentecost, in Jerusalem, circa AD 33) - then where, in the world today, is the historical church of Matthew 16, founded by Jesus Christ on Pentecost, in Jerusalem, circa AD 33?

Why do you assume that none of the Apostolic churches are that Church? Why are they founded by men, as you say?

 

[TheosisM]

Why do you assume that none of the Apostolic churches are that Church? Why are they founded by men, as you say?

He isn’t saying that they are founded by men. He’s posting a question from the Protestant perspective (or his view of what Protestants think).

 

[joe370]

Why do you assume that none of the Apostolic churches are that Church? Why are they founded by men, as you say?

My understanding of what Protestants have told me about the CC and what I believe regarding all of the PC’s.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Question for non-Catholics: I believe that all Protestant churches, the Catholic church and the Eastern Orthodox church comprise the mystical Body, the Church(es) (as opposed to church) - to which Jesus Christ is the Head and Savior. However they are all isolated autonomous churches.

If all of the isolated autonomous PC’s are churches founded by men (as opposed to God, on Pentecost, in Jerusalem, circa AD 33) - and the autonomous EOC and the autonomous CC are churches founded by men (as opposed to God, on Pentecost, in Jerusalem, circa AD 33) - then where, in the world today, is the historical church of Matthew 16, founded by Jesus Christ on Pentecost, in Jerusalem, circa AD 33?

i would like to know this one too.

 

[AmericanJosiah]

Question for non-Catholics: I believe that all Protestant churches, the Catholic church and the Eastern Orthodox church comprise the mystical Body, the Church(es) (as opposed to church) - to which Jesus Christ is the Head and Savior. However they are all isolated autonomous churches.

If all of the isolated autonomous PC’s are churches founded by men (as opposed to God, on Pentecost, in Jerusalem, circa AD 33) - and the autonomous EOC and the autonomous CC are churches founded by men (as opposed to God, on Pentecost, in Jerusalem, circa AD 33) - then where, in the world today, is the historical church of Matthew 16, founded by Jesus Christ on Pentecost, in Jerusalem, circa AD 33?

It’s all around you. It is one, holy and catholic. It is the communion of saints, the mystical union of believers, the community of faith.

Now, yes, some Christians have chosen to associate with congregations legally affiliated with The Catholic Church or The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - but these denominations are not the one, holy, catholic church - the communion of saints, the mystical union of beleivers, the community of faith. The people in the congregations that are legally affiliated with those denominations are members of His church - but the denominations are geopolitical, institutional, intracongregational legal entities. Apples and oranges.

.

 

[Dokimas]

Let me respond by asking my own questions of the CC followers here…​

All authority was given to Jesus (His words). He is the founder of the church. He had no body guards to protect Him. Why does the pope have body guards? Wouldn’t it we quite a testamony of Jesus for the pope to be martyred if that should happen? Peter was martyred? Did he have body guards? Paul was martryed. Did he have body guards?​

Please explain how the 7 churches of Revelation fits into your definition of the CC. They were separate churches that were part of the Church. Six of the seven had problems Jesus wanted to correct (fallible churches). Just because the 7th church didn’t get negative things said about it, doesn’t mean it was infallible, does it?

 

[wisdomseeker]

Let me respond by asking my own questions of the CC followers here…​

All authority was given to Jesus (His words). He is the founder of the church. He had no body guards to protect Him. Why does the pope have body guards? Wouldn’t it we quite a testamony of Jesus for the pope to be martyred if that should happen? Peter was martyred? Did he have body guards? Paul was martryed. Did he have body guards?​

Please explain how the 7 churches of Revelation fits into your definition of the CC. They were separate churches that were part of the Church. Six of the seven had problems Jesus wanted to correct (fallible churches). Just because the 7th church didn’t get negative things said about it, doesn’t mean it was infallible, does it?

Dok,

i pray that your ears will be opened to the Truth, your eyes to be opened to see the Truth. one can only see the CC by the Grace of God. it is His Church, if you come to Him with arrogance, you will remain blind. dont come to Him like you know all, for your sins will remain.

blessings.

 

[chaunceygardner]

It’s all around you. It is one, holy and catholic. It is the communion of saints, the mystical union of believers, the community of faith.

Now, yes, some Christians have chosen to associate with congregations legally affiliated with The Catholic Church or The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - but these denominations are not the one, holy, catholic church - the communion of saints, the mystical union of beleivers, the community of faith. The people in the congregations that are legally affiliated with those denominations are members of His church - but the denominations are geopolitical, institutional, intracongregational legal entities. Apples and oranges.

.

I like your answer; thank you. The true Church, the Kingdom of God, is within us and among us. Like Jesus said.

Our friend Joe370 has asked this question several times on other threads recently; he is baiting non-Catholics and really just wants to argue. He doesn’t like the idea that the “church” that Jesus founded may not be a hierarchical, doctrinal, bureaucratic and physical entity. He seems uncomfortable with the thought that it might be entirely spiritual, a community of faith and a mystical union of believers, as you say.

 

[MarkBrown]

Let me respond by asking my own questions of the CC followers here…​

All authority was given to Jesus (His words). He is the founder of the church. He had no body guards to protect Him. Why does the pope have body guards? Wouldn’t it we quite a testamony of Jesus for the pope to be martyred if that should happen? Peter was martyred? Did he have body guards? Paul was martryed. Did he have body guards?​

Please explain how the 7 churches of Revelation fits into your definition of the CC. They were separate churches that were part of the Church. Six of the seven had problems Jesus wanted to correct (fallible churches). Just because the 7th church didn’t get negative things said about it, doesn’t mean it was infallible, does it?

Morning,

Your first point or question reveals an underlying misunderstanding of why Jesus came and ignorance of the first century legal procedures.

Jesus came to redeem man. If he had bodyguards to prevent His death, burial and resurrection…well God’s plan would not have happened. Understand also, that Peter tried to turn Jesus from going to Jerusalem, the famous get thee behind me statement. In the garden, St. Peter appears to have put up a good fight in protecting Christ. Until Christ stopped him. De facto, Peter was a bodyguard.

St. Peter and St Paul were legally arrested (for the time period) tried and executed. They are martyrs of the faith because they died for their faith in Christ. A proper parallel would be if the Nation of Italy legally arrested the Pope, found him guilty of some crime and executed him. And the crime would be being a Christian. If God’s plan called for the Pope’s death, it would be a death Benedict would readily accept. I truly hope you are not alluding that the current Pope is a coward of the faith and would hinder the Gospel or the Kingdom.

Now to the second point. Tradition and history have each church headed by an angel also known as a Bishop. These are actual Churches under Bishops and at this time the structure of the Church had grouping of Churches under the various apostles. St Paul has many epistles to various Churches he either helped plant or was their Apostlic authority. His letters to Timothy and Titus are letters from an Apostle to Bishops. All of the Churches who got a letter in the Revelation were not independent seperate churches, but part of a larger organization. The seventh church was not infallible, just faithful. Please read the catechism of the Catholic Church 888-891 (I believe) as they discuss and explain infallibility of the Church and the Pope.

Fr.Mark

 

[MarkBrown]

It’s all around you. It is one, holy and catholic. It is the communion of saints, the mystical union of believers, the community of faith.

Now, yes, some Christians have chosen to associate with congregations legally affiliated with The Catholic Church or The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - but these denominations are not the one, holy, catholic church - the communion of saints, the mystical union of beleivers, the community of faith. The people in the congregations that are legally affiliated with those denominations are members of His church - but the denominations are geopolitical, institutional, intracongregational legal entities. Apples and oranges.

.

Is it your position that the Church is spiritual only?

Fr.Mark

 

[AmericanJosiah]

Is it your position that the Church is spiritual only?

Fr.Mark

If your capitolization means the proper name, a legal moniker, of a geopolitical entity, then no, obviously not. St. Francis Catholic Church of San Francisco, California is not only a spiritual reality, it is an incorporated legal entity under the laws of the State of California. But, with a lower case “c” as I used it, in a sense, such is. But remember: it is people that embrace faith - and people are not JUST spiritual. And faith - while in our “hearts” - is a visible reality. In THAT sense, the church is not JUST spiritual.

Father, it is my position that Christians are people, people gifted with faith in Christ, faith that is active in love. These Christians are - by the work of the Holy Spirit - one, holy and catholic; the communion of saints, the mystical union of believers, the community of faith. The church is US - spread out over all the continents and all the centuries.

Thank you.

Pax

• Josiah

.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I like your answer; thank you. The true Church, the Kingdom of God, is within us and among us. Like Jesus said.

Our friend Joe370 has asked this question several times on other threads recently; he is baiting non-Catholics and really just wants to argue. He doesn’t like the idea that the “church” that Jesus founded may not be a hierarchical, doctrinal, bureaucratic and physical entity. He seems uncomfortable with the thought that it might be entirely spiritual, a community of faith and a mystical union of believers, as you say.

is it what you believe? how did you come to believe this? can you prove that the early Curch believe just as you believe? or this is a new believe system?

** St. Thomas Aquinas says, “The real character of rank heresy consists in lack of submission to the divine teaching authority in the head of the Church.” **

 

[ahollars]

Why would God instruct a physical heiarchy in the Jewish Temple, only to render it obsolete with the creation of His Church? Why was the outward sign so important then, and why would those reasons not exist today? (Be careful not to compare the Catholic or Orthodox Churches to the Temple corruption of Jesus’ day. That determination is for God, and God alone.)

Most Protestant faiths exist because they believe the Catholic Church went wrong somewhere, and decided to do things the “right” way. What is right depends on who is doing the leading. That is the point that needs to be addressed, but it is obvious to the unbiased outsider that the Catholic/Orthodox Church is the one who can trace Her roots to Pentacost, and we can proove that we are still doing things the same way that they did back then. Only the style has changed over the years.

That is the point of the question. God wants more than just a spiritual communion with us. A covenant always has an outward sign. As found in James 2, “Show me your faith without works, and I will demonstrate my faith by my works.” Protestants with liturgical Tradition understand this better than Evangelicals. The rest is simply a matter of studying history as well as the faith.

Protestants become Catholic because they accept a teaching. Catholics become Protestant because they reject a teaching. The difference is not irrelevant to the discussion here.

More to follow…

 

[schaick]

Why would God instruct a physical heiarchy in the Jewish Temple, only to render it obsolete with the creation of His Church? Why was the outward sign so important then, and why would those reasons not exist today? (Be careful not to compare the Catholic or Orthodox Churches to the Temple corruption of Jesus’ day. That determination is for God, and God alone.)

[jewfaq.org/shul.htm]()

*Synagogues are generally run by a board of directors composed of lay people. They manage and maintain the synagogue and its activities, and hire a rabbi for the community. It is worth noting that a synagogue can exist without a rabbi: religious services can be, and often are, conducted by lay people in whole or in part. It is not unusual for a synagogue to be without a rabbi, at least temporarily. However, the rabbi is a valuable member of the community, providing leadership, guidance and education. *

*Synagogues are, for the most part, independent community organizations. In the United States, at least, individual synagogues do not answer to any central authority. There are central organizations for the various movements of Judaism, and synagogues are often affiliated with these organizations, but these organizations have no real power over individual synagogues. *

I am just reading about the Sanhedrin the Jewish ruling Council. There was not one leader over all synagogues.- composed of 71 members. Representatives from all type different Jewish communities.

There is a Church that was discovered in Jordan touted as being the oldest in the world. On the floor in a mosaic there is mention of 70 apostles- the christian Sanhedrin? Who is the 71st? Jesus?

 

[elvisman]

Let me respond by asking my own questions of the CC followers here…​

All authority was given to Jesus (His words). He is the founder of the church. He had no body guards to protect Him. Why does the pope have body guards? Wouldn’t it we quite a testamony of Jesus for the pope to be martyred if that should happen? Peter was martyred? Did he have body guards? Paul was martryed. Did he have body guards?​

Please explain how the 7 churches of Revelation fits into your definition of the CC. They were separate churches that were part of the Church. Six of the seven had problems Jesus wanted to correct (fallible churches). Just because the 7th church didn’t get negative things said about it, doesn’t mean it was infallible, does it?

It’s interesting that you should point out that ALL authority was given to Jesus because he, in turn gave ALL authority to the Church (Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, 20:21-23).

Secondly - how do you know that the Pope having a bodyguard is not the will of God? God may want to preserve certain Popes in these times, especially since they can give the world more information instantaneously via the internet and the media.

As for the 7 churches in Revelation 1 are ALL the Catholic Church. They are what we would today call, parishes or even dioceses.

To this day, there are some parish priests that teach error. The difference is that the FAITH is not in error. The CHURCH is not in error.

Now - that being said - please answer the question of the OP.

 

[ahollars]

[jewfaq.org/shul.htm]()

*Synagogues are generally run by a board of directors composed of lay people. They manage and maintain the synagogue and its activities, and hire a rabbi for the community. It is worth noting that a synagogue can exist without a rabbi: religious services can be, and often are, conducted by lay people in whole or in part. It is not unusual for a synagogue to be without a rabbi, at least temporarily. However, the rabbi is a valuable member of the community, providing leadership, guidance and education. *

*Synagogues are, for the most part, independent community organizations. In the United States, at least, individual synagogues do not answer to any central authority. There are central organizations for the various movements of Judaism, and synagogues are often affiliated with these organizations, but these organizations have no real power over individual synagogues. *

I am just reading about the Sanhedrin the Jewish ruling Council. There was not one leader over all synagogues.- composed of 71 members. Representatives from all type different Jewish communities.

There is a Church that was discovered in Jordan touted as being the oldest in the world. On the floor in a mosaic there is mention of 70 apostles- the christian Sanhedrin? Who is the 71st? Jesus?

Hmmm, nice, but, the question isn’t about the synagogues of today, but the Temple of the past, when the Hebrews beared witness to the Truth. If there wasn’t a single person in charge, then what was the High Priest for, and why was he the only one allowed to enter the Holy of Holies?

BTW, nice note about the church in Jordan. Is this it?

 

[elvisman]

It’s all around you. It is one, holy and catholic. It is the communion of saints, the mystical union of believers, the community of faith.

Now, yes, some Christians have chosen to associate with congregations legally affiliated with The Catholic Church or The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - but these denominations are not the one, holy, catholic church - the communion of saints, the mystical union of beleivers, the community of faith. The people in the congregations that are legally affiliated with those denominations are members of His church - but the denominations are geopolitical, institutional, intracongregational legal entities. Apples and oranges.

This idea of an invisible church is one that is rejected by the Scriptures (Matt. 5:14-16).

**Jesus made CLEAR that the church was to be ONE Body (John 17, (Eph. 4:3-6) and not many bodies making up one body. He established ONE Church and ONE Authority (Matt. 16:15-19, 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, 20:21-23) **

 

[elvisman]

It’s all around you. It is one, holy and catholic. It is the communion of saints, the mystical union of believers, the community of faith.

Now, yes, some Christians have chosen to associate with congregations legally affiliated with The Catholic Church or The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - but these denominations are not the one, holy, catholic church - the communion of saints, the mystical union of beleivers, the community of faith. The people in the congregations that are legally affiliated with those denominations are members of His church - but the denominations are geopolitical, institutional, intracongregational legal entities. Apples and oranges.

This idea of an invisible church is one that is rejected by the Scriptures (Matt. 5:14-16).

Jesus made CLEAR that the church was to be ONE Body (John 17, (Eph. 4:3-6) and not many bodies making up one body. He established ONE Church and ONE Authority (Matt. 16:15-19, 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, 20:21-23) - not many man-made authorities 1500 years later.

Tell me something:
In Matt. 18:15-18, Jesus gave the Apostles a formula by which the Church has the final say. Where do Protestants go for this "final say"?

 

[Dokimas]

Dok,

i pray that your ears will be opened to the Truth, (and I you) your eyes to be opened to see the Truth (and I you). one can only see the CC by the Grace of God. (I have a differing opinion; guess we’ll just have to wait for God to tell us in Heaven.) it is His Church (His church is His church and I’m sure it includes many who call themselves catholics) , if you come to Him with arrogance (you think I’m arrogant; have you read some of your posts with an unbias mind?), you will remain blind. dont come to Him like you know all (I’ve never said nor implied I know anything; I have kind of a clue what Paul meant in 1 Corinthians 8:2 And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know.
, do you?), for your sins will remain (So you think the Blood of Jesus can’t deal with my many, many sins?).

blessings.