where is the historical church founded by Jesus Christ?

[Dokimas]

Morning,

Your first point or question reveals an underlying misunderstanding of why Jesus came and ignorance of the first century legal procedures.

Jesus came to redeem man (That would be my guess so I also guess I had no underlying misunderstanding. **Didn’t Jesus tell His disciples they were to be like Him? Did He say He was their example to follow? If Peter was the first pope, every other pope should be like him. He was martyred for spreading the Gospel.). **If he had bodyguards to prevent His death, burial and resurrection…well God’s plan would not have happened (That would be my guess so I also guess I had no underlying misunderstanding.). Understand also, that Peter tried to turn Jesus from going to Jerusalem, the famous get thee behind me statement. In the garden, St. Peter appears to have put up a good fight in protecting Christ (**Good point; Jesus rejected body guards; His followers should do as He did, shouldn’t they?). **Until Christ stopped him. De facto, Peter was a bodyguard (In Peter’s mind only; he was disobedient on this matter; the followers of Jesus, the ones with the keys, shouldn’t they do as Jesus did?B]?).

St. Peter and St Paul were legally arrested (for the time period) tried and executed. They are martyrs of the faith because they died for their faith in Christ (suprisinglly I understand the idea behind being a Christian martyr.). A proper parallel would be if the Nation of Italy legally arrested the Pope, found him guilty of some crime and executed him. And the crime would be being a Christian. If God’s plan called for the Pope’s death, it would be a death Benedict would readily accept. I truly hope you are not alluding that the current Pope is a coward (NOT at all; **you all make such big statements for the CC and against PC that I wish you’d follow you statements to their logical conclusion) ** of the faith and would hinder the Gospel or the Kingdom.

Now to the second point. Tradition and history have each church headed by an angel also known as a Bishop. These are actual Churches under Bishops and at this time the structure of the Church had grouping of Churches under the various apostles. St Paul has many epistles to various Churches he either helped plant or was their Apostlic authority. His letters to Timothy and Titus are letters from an Apostle to Bishops. All of the Churches who got a letter in the Revelation were not independent seperate churches, but part of a larger organization. The seventh church was not infallible, just faithful. Please read the catechism of the Catholic Church 888-891 (I believe) as they discuss and explain infallibility of the Church and the Pope.

Fr.Mark

 

[joe370]

It’s all around you. It is one, holy and catholic. It is the communion of saints, the mystical union of believers, the community of faith.

Now, yes, some Christians have chosen to associate with congregations legally affiliated with The Catholic Church or The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod - but these denominations are not the one, holy, catholic church - the communion of saints, the mystical union of beleivers, the community of faith. The people in the congregations that are legally affiliated with those denominations are members of His church - but the denominations are geopolitical, institutional, intracongregational legal entities. Apples and oranges.

 

[joe370]

Dokimas:
Dok, thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut but it really didn’t answer my question. Please answer my question if you get the chance.

 

[joe370]

I like your answer; thank you. The true Church, the Kingdom of God, is within us and among us. Like Jesus said.

Our friend Joe370

Please stop assuming and simply answer the question. I already said that Jesus’ church(es) are spiritual, a community of faith and a mystical union of ALL believers, I believe that your church is part of the Mystical Body of Christ, to which Jesus is the head and savior.

Please, just answer my question??? It’s a very simple question.

Thanks…

 

[joe370]

Please, if anyone does come back to this thread I hope you will simply answer the question, directly.

Thanks, Joe…

 

[Dokimas]

Question for non-Catholics: I believe that all Protestant churches, the Catholic church and the Eastern Orthodox church comprise the mystical Body (not the churches but individual members that are truly believers), the Church(es) (as opposed to church) - to which Jesus Christ is the Head and Savior (Agreed). However they are all isolated autonomous churches.

If all of the isolated autonomous PC’s are churches founded by men (If they were called by God then they are a part of the one church Jesus founded) (as opposed to God, on Pentecost, in Jerusalem, circa AD 33) - and the autonomous EOC and the autonomous CC are churches founded by men (as opposed to God, on Pentecost, in Jerusalem, circa AD 33) - then where, in the world today, is the historical church of Matthew 16, founded by Jesus Christ on Pentecost, in Jerusalem, circa AD 33? (Spread out throughout the whole earth - found under many different church names - What binds us in faith in Jesus the Messiah, Savior, Creator)

 

[AmericanJosiah]

Please, if anyone does come back to this thread I hope you will simply answer the question, directly.

Thanks, Joe…

I did.

Several others did, as well.

.

 

[AmericanJosiah]

The church is one, holy and catholic. It is the communion of saints, the mystical union of believers, the community of faith.

Where did I post that the church is invisible?

Here’s Matthew 5:14-16, “You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead, they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house.”

Some questions:

1. Did you know that the “you” here is a plural, personal pronoun? It’s referring to PEOPLE, not a geopolitical/ institutional/ intracongregational/ denominational entity, an “it.”
2. Did you notice it says “PEOPLE” - not denomination? How, exactly, can The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints or The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod or The United Reformed Church USA do as Jesus suggests?

Jesus made that the church was to be ONE Body John 17, (Eph. 4:3-6) and not many bodies making up one body. He established ONE church Matt. 16:15-19, 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, 20:21-23

I couldn’t agree more. That’s why I posted what I did.

.

 

[chaunceygardner]

Please stop assuming and simply answer the question. I already said that Jesus’ church(es) are spiritual, a community of faith and a mystical union of ALL believers, I believe that your church is part of the Mystical Body of Christ, to which Jesus is the head and savior.

Please, just answer my question??? It’s a very simple question.

Thanks…

Hi Joe, it’s like we’re becoming old friends, isn’t it?

I am curious as to why you keep asking others to answer a question you seem to be very eager to provide the answer for? And then keep insisting that, despite all the attempts several people have made to answer it, that we keep trying.

Anyway, to address the question about “where is the historical church”, my answer will be that the church you ask about is back in history. It does not exist today, at least in a form and a manner that you desire. That historical church began disappearing within a few decades of the Crucifixion and for the most part was totally changed when Constantine “adopted” Christianity as the official religion. What we have after that point and up until today is the shell of what once was the true, historical church of the Gospels.

The Good News is that the historical church, while not existing in any one denomination, DOES exist in the hearts, minds and souls of those who believe in and live the Gospel. As I believe AmericanJosiah was saying in his first post, that encompasses people of many church affiliations, and (I would say) many other non-affiliated people as well.

We, the people of God, are where that church is, which means it is everywhere the Spirit is, acting within us and through us. That includes you, Joe, and I pray even me.

Peace and blessings.

 

[Dokimas]

Hi Joe, it’s like we’re becoming old friends, isn’t it?

I am curious as to why you keep asking others to answer a question you seem to be very eager to provide the answer for? And then keep insisting that, despite all the attempts several people have made to answer it, that we keep trying.

Anyway, to address the question about “where is the historical church”, my answer will be that the church you ask about is back in history. It does not exist today, at least in a form and a manner that you desire. That historical church began disappearing within a few decades of the Crucifixion and for the most part was totally changed when Constantine “adopted” Christianity as the official religion. What we have after that point and up until today is the shell of what once was the true, historical church of the Gospels.

The Good News is that the historical church, while not existing in any one denomination, DOES exist in the hearts, minds and souls of those who believe in and live the Gospel. As I believe AmericanJosiah was saying in his first post, that encompasses people of many church affiliations, and (I would say) many other non-affiliated people as well.

We, the people of God, are where that church is, which means it is everywhere the Spirit is, acting within us and through us. That includes you, Joe, and I pray even me.

Peace and blessings.

Very good comments. I don’t see a church where everyone sells all they have to help the needy. The CC like many ‘big’ churches have magnificent structures worth mega bucks. Seems far from the early church.

 

[elvisman]

Where did I post that the church is invisible?

Here’s Matthew 5:14-16, “You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead, they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house.”

Some questions:

1. Did you know that the “you” here is a plural, personal pronoun? It’s referring to PEOPLE, not a geopolitical/ institutional/ intracongregational/ denominational entity, an “it.”
2. Did you notice it says “PEOPLE” - not denomination? How, exactly, can The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints or The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod or The United Reformed Church USA do as Jesus suggests?

I couldn’t agree more. That’s why I posted what I did.
.

You posted:
**“The church is one, holy and catholic. It is the communion of saints, the mystical union of believers, the community of faith.”
**
Unfortunately - this does not include every single Protestant denomination.
It only includes the Catholic Church established by Jesus - the church he identified himself with in Acts 9:4-5.
Your church - and all other Protestant denominations - were established by men about 1500 years later.

So, your quote was true - but unfortunately not for many of you.

 

[joe370]

I did.

Several others did, as well.

.

None of the Protestant churches were founded by God in the 1st century, in Jerusalem on Pentecost, and according to people like yourself, the CC and the EOC were not founded by God in the 1st century, in Jerusalem on Pentecost. So you see, you really did not answer the question. As I said, I know that all believers (regardless of the church) - comprise the Mystical Body, the church(es) to which Jesus is the head and savior; no doubt about that. I am simply asking someone to identify the historical church (original assembly of believers) - of Matthew 16, founded by Jesus Christ (as opposed to a mere man) - in the 1st century, in Jerusalem, on Pentecost?

Thanks…

 

[joe370]

Hey chaunceygardner, you said:

Hi Joe, it’s like we’re becoming old friends, isn’t it?

Amen to that. I regard all Christians (regardless of denomination) - my brother or sister in Christ.

I am curious as to why you keep asking others to answer a question you seem to be very eager to provide the answer for? And then keep insisting that, despite all the attempts several people have made to answer it, that we keep trying.

Well, other than you, no one has attempted to answer the question.

Anyway, to address the question about “where is the historical church”, my answer will be that the church you ask about is back in history. It does not exist today, at least in a form and a manner that you desire. That historical church began disappearing within a few decades of the Crucifixion and for the most part was totally changed when Constantine “adopted” Christianity as the official religion. What we have after that point and up until today is the shell of what once was the true, historical church of the Gospels.

The Good News is that the historical church, while not existing in any one denomination, DOES exist in the hearts, minds and souls of those who believe in and live the Gospel. As I believe AmericanJosiah was saying in his first post, that encompasses people of many church affiliations, and (I would say) many other non-affiliated people as well.

We, the people of God, are where that church is, which means it is everywhere the Spirit is, acting within us and through us. That includes you, Joe, and I pray even me.

Peace and blessings.

Thank you for answering the question, even though I don’t agree with you, and that is certainly OK and even healthy for people to have disagreements. If, as you say, the historical church founded By God, began disappearing within a few decades of the Crucifixion, and was totally changed when Constantine “adopted” Christianity as the official religion, then how can I be certain that the church founded by God, which morphed into a man-made church within a few decades of the Crucifixion of our Lord - has reliably and accurately preserved for the world the correct inspired books of the holy bible? If what you say is true, then the gates of hell have in fact prevailed against the historical church founded by God, as opposed to the man-made churches where true believers can be found - correct? How is it that the devil was able to vanquish the historical church founded by God, in the first century, but can’t manage to do the same to all of the churches founded by sinful, fallible people? If you are correct then the holy spirit did not forever guide Jesus’ church - correct? I mean, Jesus promised to send the Paraclete to the church of Matthew 16, only, founded by Jesus. He never promised to send the Paraclete to some morphed man-made church - right? When Jesus said: *“I will build my church,” *He failed to mention that His church would cease to exist within a few decades of His death, necessitating the need for everyone to simply believe that His church will only exist in the hearts, minds and souls of those who believe in and live the Gospel. Something seems egregiously wrong with that line of thinking, IMHO. If you are right, is the HS still guiding each and every man-made church, as the HS did with the historical church founded by God, at least for the first few decades of Christianity? Do you believe that all of the PC’s, the EOC and the CC, (none of which were founded by God, if you are correct) - are a visible human assembly, united and one, in which Christ is present “until the end of time,” and, in which the Holy Spirit will always be ineffably present, guiding Jesus’ multiple brides into all truth? John 16:13 John 14:16

Continued…

 

[joe370]

If Jesus’ promise of the Holy Spirit to His established historical church, until the end of time , (as opposed to any man-made churches, including the CC if you are right) - is not a reality, then why the need to go to some man-made church and again, why would I consider the bible to be the inerrant word of God, considering the fact that Matthew 28:20 and Matthew 16 appear to be a lie? Matthew 16 says that Jesus is the builder of the church, and all we see in the world today are churches built by men. Jesus said: I will build my church; did God build in vain? Did the sin of man in Jesus’ historical church of Matthew 16 prevent God from achieving His Divine will? Jesus said to just one church: *“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the time.” *

He entrusted His church leaders in His stead, (who did the same with their successors, and so on and so on) - with the mission to teach everyone to obey everything that He commanded and promised to be with His very visible fledgling church until the end of time, via the guidance of the holy spirit - right? You are really saying that this ended in just a few decades, after Jesus’ death? If this historical church no longer exists, then which man-made church has the God given right to teach everyone to obey everything that Jesus commanded? It’s certainly not the CC if you are right about the CC! In my opinion, none of them, (including the CC, if you are right) - if these churches are not the historical church founded by God, in the Jerusalem, on Pentecost, circa AD 33, entrusted with the mission to teach everyone to obey everything that Jesus commanded, in perpetuity. The only reason why we can trust this historical church founded by God, (that no longer exists, if you are correct) - comprised of all fallible sinners, is because of the Divine guidance of the HS, protecting and safeguarding the doctrinal truths revealed to Jesus’ church leadership, in spite of Satan’s never ending onslaught and the weaknesses of the sinful church leaders of said church - right?

Chaunceygardner, could you give me the name of the man (or men) - that founded the CC, and when? I will of course do the same regarding any Protestant church, if you ask!

Hey, thanks for answering my question; most people don’t…

God bless and peace to you as well my friend…

 

[Dokimas]

If Jesus’ promise of the Holy Spirit to His established historical church, until the end of time , (as opposed to any man-made churches, including the CC if you are right) - is not a reality, then why the need to go to some man-made church and again, why would I consider the bible to be the inerrant word of God, considering the fact that Matthew 28:20 and Matthew 16 appear to be a lie? Matthew 16 says that Jesus is the builder of the church, and all we see in the world today are churches built by men. Jesus said: I will build my church; did God build in vain? Did the sin of man in Jesus’ historical church of Matthew 16 prevent God from achieving His Divine will? Jesus said to just one church: *“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the time.” *

He entrusted His church leaders in His stead, (who did the same with their successors, and so on and so on) - with the mission to teach everyone to obey everything that He commanded and promised to be with His very visible fledgling church until the end of time, via the guidance of the holy spirit - right? You are really saying that this ended in just a few decades, after Jesus’ death? If this historical church no longer exists, then which man-made church has the God given right to teach everyone to obey everything that Jesus commanded? It’s certainly not the CC if you are right about the CC! In my opinion, none of them, (including the CC, if you are right) - if these churches are not the historical church founded by God, in the Jerusalem, on Pentecost, circa AD 33, entrusted with the mission to teach everyone to obey everything that Jesus commanded, in perpetuity. The only reason why we can trust this historical church founded by God, (that no longer exists, if you are correct) - comprised of all fallible sinners, is because of the Divine guidance of the HS, protecting and safeguarding the doctrinal truths revealed to Jesus’ church leadership, in spite of Satan’s never ending onslaught and the weaknesses of the sinful church leaders of said church - right?

Chaunceygardner, could you give me the name of the man (or men) - that founded the CC, and when? I will of course do the same regarding any Protestant church, if you ask!

Hey, thanks for answering my question; most people don’t…

God bless and peace to you as well my friend…

Seems clear to me that God gave the Spirit to true believers. It is true believers that make up the universal church. We don’t know who is part of the church, only God does for sure. Maybe that’s another reason why it’s an invisible church?

 

[wisdomseeker]

Seems clear to me that God gave the Spirit to true believers. It is true believers that make up the universal church. We don’t know who is part of the church, only God does for sure. Maybe that’s another reason why it’s an invisible church?

does the Bible in anyway imply that the Church is invisible? where?

 

[FabiusMaximus]

St. Peter and St Paul were legally arrested (for the time period) tried and executed. They are martyrs of the faith because they died for their faith in Christ. A proper parallel would be if the Nation of Italy legally arrested the Pope, found him guilty of some crime and executed him. And the crime would be being a Christian. If God’s plan called for the Pope’s death, it would be a death Benedict would readily accept. I truly hope you are not alluding that the current Pope is a coward of the faith and would hinder the Gospel or the Kingdom.

In many cases the opposite occurred - the Pope taking prisoner (spiritually and morally) millions of Italians for his personal purpose.

 

[schaick]

Hmmm, nice, but, the question isn’t about the synagogues of today, but the Temple of the past, when the Hebrews beared witness to the Truth. If there wasn’t a single person in charge, then what was the High Priest for, and why was he the only one allowed to enter the Holy of Holies?

BTW, nice note about the church in Jordan. Is this it?

Well the need for the High Priest to go into the holiest of Holies on Yom Kippur to make atonement, offer the sacrifices is no longer needed because of Jesus’ sacrifice.

So we are left with the Sanhedrin.

 

[joe370]

Seems clear to me that God gave the Spirit to true believers. It is true believers that make up the universal church. We don’t know who is part of the church, only God does for sure. Maybe that’s another reason why it’s an invisible church?[/QUOT

[/QUOTE]

 

[Dokimas]

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