where is the historical church founded by Jesus Christ?

[Cursilista]

Thats my point, they would have believed what they were told because they could not read it for themselves, and because of this they were not able to understand or comprehend so they had no choice but to believe what they were told it says and because of this the “founding fathers” may have taken advantage of them being illiterate and they knew they would believe anything they were told about what was written.

this is the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard. Jesus taught by oral teachings, the apostles taught by oral teachings. are you saying that what they taught was in error?

oh , wait i see, they didnt have the bible so their teaching was wrong.

The Bible didnt exist till 400 ad

Rev Kevin, just because they may not have been able to read does not eqaute with being dumb.

Where were the Baptist and their teachings before the printing press?

 

[kempo1]

sounds like that old lie about the cc withholding the bible from the regular folks to keep them dumbed down is still floating around. the fact is the ones continuing that old wves tale owe the cc a debt of gratitude for putting the scripture together and giving it to the world. the problem is with the old tale is it is a lie, when will they realize[people who believe it] that the broken up body of christ is because every tom, dick, and harry was able to grab a bible and declare themselves a preacher of the gospel with no authority, training, or anything to tell them wether or not they were teaching the bible correctly, which has lead to 30 thousand different religions all claiming to have divine revelation of the scriptures. none in agreement. man wake up people!!!

 

[Cursilista]

sounds like what rev is saying happened to early christians is actually happening to him

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

This goes against Catholic teaching. The one truly Christian Church is the one unifed Catholic Church, under the pastoral care of the Bishop of Rome. The Protestant denominations “are not Churches, in the proper sense”.

I think a rereading of Dominus Iesus and Mystici Corporis is in order. The Catholic Church is the sole universal Church; it is the one true Church; the Mystical Body of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church. Protestant denominations are man-made institutions, and not a part of the Church, with all respect to their sincerity. From the Baltimore Catechism:

Obviously this excludes the Protestant denominations. How could they be part of the universal Church, when there is one sole universal Church, the Catholic Church?
And:

And:

You sure do have a lot of words of man to describe God’s church

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

Exactly. If they are part of the Catholic Church, even while they are unknowing, it is in spite of their Protestantism.

Without the Sacramental life of the one Church? I don’t think so. They are in a true but impaired communion due to the valid,** visible**, Catholic sacrament of Baptism, but that’s it.

So the orphans, widows, addicts, hungry and prisoners we minister to in Christs name dont please our Lord because we dont have our rituals just the way you like them?

 

[tweetymom]

I’m not that Baptist preacher and disagree with his statement. I can’t do anything about your friend swallowing what he says but you can tell him that what he is saying is not that of Christ. We are to love one another not hate. As far as rejecting the church he established, I have not, the church is Christ not some church with a name. It’s the body of Christ that was established, the church is the body of Christ, he is the head of the body. It says if you believe in me, Christ, you shall have eternal life. It don’t say if you believe in the CC or anyother denomination you shall have eternal life. Where do you see that you have to be a Catholic inorder to have a personal relationship with Christ? As far as the authority part, I said I will not discuss that anymore. I’m not bashing the true church because the true church is Christ himself and I will never bash him. As far as interperating the Bible, I don’t leave it up to just some one religion to say that is what the Bible means, See back in their days it was fine because almost everyone could not read nor had a education and because of their lack of education they had no choice but to believe what they were told by the “founding fathers” because they could read and had a education. The reason they accpet it is because they don’t know any different.

:clapping:

 

[dnu]

More Protestant conspiracy theories…

Keep it up, you’re pushing more people to the truth of the Catholic Church every day.

Protestants are our best recruiters.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

Oh yes. A Protestant who is walking within the light of the revelation given to him, even without the sacraments, has the potential to a better life of holiness than a so called Catholic who is in rebellion against the teachings of the Church, and partakes of the Sacrament in an unworthy manner as a result.

All one need do is observe the very short lines outside the confessional in any Latin parish, and compare them to the very long lines at communion to realize that the vast majority in attendance are in a state of profane rebellion. If those who claimed to be Catholic actually behaved according the the teachings of the Church, America would look very different today. Where is the salt and light? It has lost it’s flavor,a nd the lamp is under the bushel.

I was thinking about this today. When I was a junky and in a very bad way it was protestants who reached out to me and who treated me with compassion a protestant who told me that I needed Jesus in my life. perhaps there were no Catholics who knew me but to this day I dont know a devout Catholic outside of this forum. Do Catholics evangelize?

 

[guanophore]

Guan, are you saying that my Church is not Catholic:crying:

Rinnie, we have been down this road before. The Latin (Roman) Rite is not any more Catholic than any of the other 22 Catholic Rites that are in communion with the successor of Peter.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

I have to agree with you 100% here. Being catholic has almost become a birthright rather than a choice . It seems many catholics have no desire to really learn what being catholic is anymore… so they often turn to protestant churches because it’s easy. Case in point… my own children (but the fault lies in me when I was raising them)

Being protestant is easy? this is the second time Ive heard that its harder to be a Catholic. I watched a Mass it didnt seem that difficult. our elders do serve us in our seats, we dont bow but some times we kneel, without those little pads! I think its a wash.

 

[guanophore]

Because they don’t believe the church He established is the same one you do. Or they believe Christ needed to reform it so the gates did not prevail. Is anger still one of the 7 deadly sins?

What would make them think it is not?

The Church founded by Christ is pure and spotless. She has no need of reform. This thinking is the error of the Reformation. Only the fallible humans attached to the Church need reform. People are always in need of Reform.

He established His Church and if He had to reform it so the gates did not prevail then He had to reform it is all I’m saying. I merely answered your question as to how others might believe they can have a relationship with God with the hope you could understand.

There was nothing wrong with the doctrine. Jesus kept his promise to lead the Church into all Truth. The mistake made by the Reformers was that the doctrine needed reform, when it was the people who were failing to adhere to it that needed attention.

Why is it necessary for “others” to rebel against what Jesus established in order to feel that they have a relationship with God?

why are you going to a Church that teaches the wrong thing?

Are you attending a non-Catholic church? If so, perhaps that explains why your posts are so anti-Catholic!

Can you revise your affiliation so that it is more accurate?

No such thing as a perfect Church…once one of us wretched sinners walk in it is ruined

Ahh, such thinking comes from a deficient understanding of the nature of Church. The Church has Christ as her Head, and the HS as her soul. These divine elements make her Holy and infallible. The wretched sinners connected to the Body are, indeed, imperfect. However, no amount of imperfection on the part of humans can contaminate divinity.

 

[dnu]

“Ahh, such thinking comes from a deficient understanding of the nature of Church. The Church has Christ as her Head, and the HS as her soul. These divine elements make her Holy and infallible. The wretched sinners connected to the Body are, indeed, imperfect. However, no amount of imperfection on the part of humans can contaminate divinity.”

It’s called a joke

Thank you for the correction though.

 

[guanophore]

It don’t say if you believe in the CC or anyother denomination you shall have eternal life.

The CC is not a 'denomination". On the contrary, all other ecclesial communties are denominated from Catholicism. All of them began by defining themselves by what part of Catholicism they rejected. The more denominating that goes on, the further people get from the Apostolic faith.

 Where do you see that you have to be a Catholic inorder to have a personal relationship with Christ?

Christ is not separated from His Body. Everyone who has a personal relationship with Him therefore is a member of His One Body, the Church. He only established One Church. He only has One Body.

As far as the authority part, I said I will not discuss that anymore.

I think authority is really the crux of the matter. It was at the time of the Reformation, and it still is to day.

As far as interperating the Bible, I don’t leave it up to just some one religion to say that is what the Bible means,

The Church founded by Christ is not “some one religion”. Jesus gave every thing to the Apostles, and they to their successors. This is what has been preserved by the Church through Sacred Tradition, by the power of the HS. Only Jesus has the authority to interpret the Scriptures, and He gave that authority to His Apostles. Those who are separated from the Apostolic succession interpret the Sacred Scriptures apart from the Apostolic Teaching.

See back in their days it was fine because almost everyone could not read nor had a education and because of their lack of education they had no choice but to believe what they were told by the "founding fathers" because they could read and had a education.

No, rev kev, this is not the case. In fact, for the first three centuries of the Church, almost everyone could read. The illiteracy did not occur until the middle ages, when war ravaged all the civilized areas. During that time, libraries, schools, and much scholarship was destroyed.

People believed the “founding fathers” because they were the ones that were authorized to keep and to teach the faith.

The reason they accpet it is because they don’t know any different.

No. Those of us that accept the Catholic faith as passed on by the Apostles have studied our way here. I left the Church for 20 some years, sojourned in five different denominations and spent three years in a Protestant seminary before I realized that the Catholic Church is the one founded by Christ, and that the Teachings are those of the Apostles.

You will find that most of the apologists on this forum have had a similar experience. We do not cling to our faith because we are ignorant.

If I don’t believe in some of the teachings of the CC do you really think the by opening the Cathechism will make a difference? It won’t change my mind.

It will if your disagreements are based upon wrong information. Most people don’t really know and understand the Catholic faith, including most Catholics.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

No, it means that God’s ability to protect His Church from error cannot be thwarted by the shortcomings of man.

I don’t see how anyone could even consider becoming catholic with the kind of prejudice you seem to have!

Im saying I dont believe the pope is infallible Im not saying he should sit in the back of the bus. Im trying to understand what Catholics believe and why and hoping to explain why I believe as I do. I would not say Im considering converting. though If God wants me in the Catholic Church I have no doubt he will get me there.

 

[elvisman]

If I don’t believe in some of the teachings of the CC do you really think the by opening the Cathechism will make a difference? It won’t change my mind.

**I’m not advising you to read it so that you’ll convert to Catholicism.
I’m telling you that you should do your homework before engaging in debates with faithful, educated Catholics. The Catechism is where you’ll find most of the answers to the questions you have about the Church in the first place.

Softening your heart and opening your eyes to the truth is God’s job. Mine is in pointing you in the right direction.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

What are your criteria for a “valid church”?

Would it matter to you if your criteria, and those of the early Christians were different?

A church that teaches the word of God, that ministers to the needs of people and reaches out to the world with the gospel. Yes

 

[rev_kevin]

The CC is not a 'denomination". On the contrary, all other ecclesial communties are denominated from Catholicism. All of them began by defining themselves by what part of Catholicism they rejected. The more denominating that goes on, the further people get from the Apostolic faith.
hog wash

Christ is not separated from His Body. Everyone who has a personal relationship with Him therefore is a member of His One Body, the Church. He only established One Church. He only has One Body.we are all part of the body of Christ not just the CC

I think authority is really the crux of the matter. It was at the time of the Reformation, and it still is to day. Like I said I’m not discussing it anymore.

The Church founded by Christ is not “some one religion”. Jesus gave every thing to the Apostles, and they to their successors. This is what has been preserved by the Church through Sacred Tradition, by the power of the HS. Only Jesus has the authority to interpret the Scriptures, and He gave that authority to His Apostles. Those who are separated from the Apostolic succession interpret the Sacred Scriptures apart from the Apostolic Teaching.Jesus gave them the power to carry on his teachings

No, rev kev, this is not the case. In fact, for the first three centuries of the Church, almost everyone could read. The illiteracy did not occur until the middle ages, when war ravaged all the civilized areas. During that time, libraries, schools, and much scholarship was destroyed. Not according to history, So you are saying that people got dumber as time went on.

People believed the “founding fathers” because they were the ones that were authorized to keep and to teach the faith. because they didn’t know any better

No. Those of us that accept the Catholic faith as passed on by the Apostles have studied our way here. I left the Church for 20 some years, sojourned in five different denominations and spent three years in a Protestant seminary before I realized that the Catholic Church is the one founded by Christ, and that the Teachings are those of the Apostles.I’m happy for you

You will find that most of the apologists on this forum have had a similar experience. We do not cling to our faith because we are ignorant.didn’t say you were ignorant

It will if your disagreements are based upon wrong information. Most people don’t really know and understand the Catholic faith, including most Catholics.

Thats them, I’m not them I think on my own

 

[elvisman]

Im saying I dont believe the pope is infallible Im not saying he should sit in the back of the bus. Im trying to understand what Catholics believe and why and hoping to explain why I believe as I do. I would not say Im considering converting. though If God wants me in the Catholic Church I have no doubt he will get me there.

Although I disagree with you about the Pope (BTW - we don’t believe he’s impeccable and he’s not infallible about everything) - I appreciate your honesty.

Sometimes, I read some of your posts that seem to be on the attack, then I read one like this that is very sincere.

 

[guanophore]

I was thinking about this today. When I was a junky and in a very bad way it was protestants who reached out to me and who treated me with compassion a protestant who told me that I needed Jesus in my life. perhaps there were no Catholics who knew me but to this day I dont know a devout Catholic outside of this forum. Do Catholics evangelize?

I had the same experience. Catholics seem to have forgotten how to evangelize. it is our separated brethren, when they come home, that are bringing the evangelistic gift back. There are a few really good Catholic evangelists, but the personal sense of mission that should live in the heart of every Christian is not very evident. Most Catholics are woefully unprepared to give an account of the hope that is within.

That being said, evangelism through the care of the needy in the world is no where better attended to than by the Catholic Church. There are more outreaches and missions, schools, hospitals, and corporate works of mercy engaged in by Catholics than any other organization, political or religious. For Catholics, evangelism is faith, working through love, and it is by our fruit that we are to be known to the world.

Im saying I dont believe the pope is infallible Im not saying he should sit in the back of the bus.

Did you think that Catholics believe he is?

Im trying to understand what Catholics believe and why and hoping to explain why I believe as I do. I would not say Im considering converting. though If God wants me in the Catholic Church I have no doubt he will get me there.

It is for people like you that CAF is here.

I am sure you are right, that God will get you where He wants you, so long as you are willing to follow Him wherever He leads. Catholics believe that the HS is always working toward unity.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

Pope Pius XII:

The words* subsistit in* have caused some problems, as some Catholics have mistakenly thought they represented a reversal in Catholic dogma (which is impossible). In previous encyclicals, it was worded as “is”. However, in another document promulgated on the same day as* Lumen Gentium*, the Council referred to “the Holy Catholic Church, which is the Mystical Body of Christ” (Orientalium Ecclesiarum). Sebastian Tromp, a Dutch Jesuit and close friend of Pope Pius XII, is considered to be the main ghostwriter of Mystici Corporis. As advisor to Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani he was influential in the document’s phrasing of “subsistit in”, which, to his understanding of Latin, did not mean anything new or unstated by previous documents, but indicates completeness. The document also never stated that the Church of Christ subsisted in any Protestant denominations.

It is also to the Catholic Church, not to a distinct “invisible Church of Christ”, that has been entrusted “the fullness of grace and of truth” that gives value to the other Churches and communities that the Holy Spirit uses as possible instruments of salvation, inasmuch as they contain some Catholic truths— again, the Church of Christ is still not said to subsist in any of them. In fact, the Council combined the two terms “Church of Christ” and “Catholic Church” into a single term, “Christ’s Catholic Church” in its Decree on Ecumenism, promulgated at the same time as its Constitution on the Church

There are not two separate “Churches”, invisible and visible; that’s a Nestorian ecclesiology. There is one Church Church with two aspects. And the Mystical Body is that one Church.

Pope Pius XII:

Pope Paul VI:

Well Im glad to see having one pope at the top has eliminated all confusion for you guys We clearly dont know what were missing. just teasing of course but in a way it does make a serious point. there still seems to be lots of interpretations you just have more documents to be interpreted.