where is the historical church founded by Jesus Christ?

[CMatt25]

No.
The Church teaches that they are RELATED to the Body of Chrsit but are separated brethren - self-separated, I might add.

Elvis, as to whether the Church considers Protestants, though perhaps imperfect in the eyes of the CC, still part of the body of Christ. you responded “No”.

But the catechism says something else.

Incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ

1267 Baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ: “Therefore . . . we are members one of another.” Baptism incorporates us into the Church. From the baptismal fonts is born the one People of God of the New Covenant, **which transcends all the natural or human limits **of nations, cultures, races, and sexes: **“For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body.” **

**The sacramental bond of the unity of Christians **

1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: **"For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. **Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church. **"Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all **who through it are reborn.

And CAF Apologetics appear to disagree with you as well.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6337007

 

[tweetymom]

I think Tweety is to be commended for changing her public affiliation. I think this is a sign that she is not in as much denial. It is not fair to fault her because she is Protestant in faith. She is doing the best she can with what little she has.

Sorry but I do a lot with the lot I have.

 

[guanophore]

Sorry but I do a lot with the lot I have.

Yes, of course! You do a lot, since you are very active in your parish and are involved in a number of ministries. Given that you are able to do so much with a truncated Christianity, it boggles the mind to imagine what you might do if you embraced the full Truth!

 

[CMatt25]

Yes, of course! You do a lot, since you are very active in your parish and are involved in a number of ministries. Given that you are able to do so much with a truncated Christianity, it boggles the mind to imagine what you might do if you embraced the full Truth!

I find it absolutely mindboggling with how much work Tweetymom does do in her Catholic parish based on what I have gathered from the forum, and yet how persecuted and how much of a cross she must bear from her fellow believers here on CAF. But I know Christ gives us no heavier cross than we can bear. Sad though.

 

[Masters_Servant]

Question for non-Catholics: I believe that all Protestant churches, the Catholic church and the Eastern Orthodox church comprise the mystical Body, the Church(es) (as opposed to church) - to which Jesus Christ is the Head and Savior. However they are all isolated autonomous churches.

If all of the isolated autonomous PC’s are churches founded by men (as opposed to God, on Pentecost, in Jerusalem, circa AD 33) - and the autonomous EOC and the autonomous CC are churches founded by men (as opposed to God, on Pentecost, in Jerusalem, circa AD 33) - then where, in the world today, is the historical church of Matthew 16, founded by Jesus Christ on Pentecost, in Jerusalem, circa AD 33?

It lies in the hearts of those that belong to Jesus Christ and transcends all Christian religions; god is not a respecter of persons much less formal religionist. Very simple answer to a very simple question.

The message is quite simple as well; accept Jesus and all that that entails and you will be in heaven; reject the son of God in any manner and you will be in hell; only in the sense of a point in time when one accepted or rejected. The seed may have been planted in the mind of the rejecter; therefore the ultimate destiny of the rejecter will be solely dependent on the moving of the Holy Spirit to unveil the mask of unbelief.

Consider Lydia as an example of the latter: Acts 16:14
Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us {Paul & Silas}. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.

Further examples:
2Co 3:13 - [In Context|Read Chapter]
unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away.

2Co 3:14
But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.

2Co 3:15
But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.

2Co 3:16
Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

 

[guanophore]

I find it absolutely mindboggling with how much work Tweetymom does do in her Catholic parish based on what I have gathered from the forum, and yet how persecuted and how much of a cross she must bear from her fellow believers here on CAF. But I know Christ gives us no heavier cross than we can bear. Sad though.

Her cross got a lot lighter when she stopped claiming to be Catholic. Protestants are welcome in the Catholic church, and it is noble that she gives such great service to her parish. It is important, though, that her beliefs be recognized for what they are, and what they are not.

 

[CMatt25]

It lies in the hearts of those that belong to Jesus Christ and transcends all Christian religions; god is not a respecter of persons much less formal religionist. Very simple answer to a very simple question.

Servant, Christ did indeed make it simple, didn’t He? Man makes it difficult.

Rom 10:9 For if thou confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him up from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Col 3:23 Whatsoever you do, do it from the heart, as to the Lord, and not to men

Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God

Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting.

And one of my favorites…

Jn 13:35 By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another.

 

[CMatt25]

Her cross got a lot lighter when she stopped claiming to be Catholic. Protestants are welcome in the Catholic church, and it is noble that she gives such great service to her parish. It is important, though, that her beliefs be recognized for what they are, and what they are not.

If Tweety was baptized Catholic and wanted to continue calling herself Catholic she could have. This has already been settled, established approximately 80 posts ago and in other places elsewhere on CAF and according to the Church you profess to agree with. If she didn’t want to that was her choice as well. No one else’s.

 

[CMatt25]

Her cross got a lot lighter when she stopped claiming to be Catholic. Protestants are welcome in the Catholic church, and it is noble that she gives such great service to her parish. It is important, though, that her beliefs be recognized for what they are, and what they are not.

guan, you do understand don’t you whatever the adjective, the noun is still Catholic, don’t you?

 

[Dokimas]

non-Catholic Christians do adhere to many of the Sacred Traditions. They just don’t realize they are doing it. Many realize what the Bible says and follow it.

Why would Jesus leave us orphaned, not knowing the truth, after He promised He would not?
He hasn’t. There are many core beliefs (ones that really deal with salvation) that are common and find their source in the Bible. It’s the other things that we let our humanity get involved, thus the division. Division started in the 1st century. That’s what Paul in 1 Corinthians dealt with: you say your of Paul, the other Cephas, another Applos … this should not be!!! (my paraphrase)

Why would He expect us to find our way without guidance? What kind of shepherd does that to his sheep? He has given His Holy Spirit and shepherds and many of the shepherds have been in the CC, just not all of them and there’s are the only ‘called ones’.​

To the extent that the service of the Church is to bring souls to heaven (and what do you think a major objective of the evangelical ‘community’ is all about?), I suppose letting everyone know that the Truth in fullness is present could be said to be self serving. Letting everyone know about the Truth is to speak about Jesus, not bringing into the a specific church as THE way, the truth and the life (that’s how many here speak of the CC … just look at the posts I challenge equating the CC with Jesus.)]

It is kinda like Jesus saying “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no one comes to the Father but by me” is self serving. (No, it’s more like saying ‘I’m more loved by our father that you are and he told me so’ to a fellow sibbling.)

Jesus is God and He spoke of Himself so we’d know of Him. We do well to speak of Him and not about ourselves unless we testify of the mud, pit, wickedness He took us out of.

 

[Dokimas]

Guanophore in black; Doki in color:

It is always great to hear when our separated brethren have retained these foundations of the Apostolic Faith. Very condesending!! ‘I’m better than you, so there,’ type of statement.

It matters because it is our duty as His creatures to worship Him as He has directed. Do you lift up holy hands in worship? Do you lay prostrate before Him? Are you thankful in ALL things? Do you esteem others better than yourself (all except non-catholic, probably)?​

BTW, how do non-catholic Christians not worship God correctly?

It seems that you are quite resistant to the idea that Jesus founded One Church (not me; it’s you’re understanding that I disagree with), and that it was called Catholic (correct). The Church He founded was True (correct but made up of us sinners which can and does cause problems which Jesus foreknew and uses to His glory), and it has been around the longest because He promised that this would be the case (the CC has been around for over 1500 yrs; Jewish ‘religion’ has been around 2000*2500 yrs longer – so what?). I wonder what would have to change for you if you accepted these facts? Maybe if the CC would change some of it’s teachings and proclaimations.?.?

While I agree that “bickering” is not helpful, clarifying the areas where we disagree, and why, is important. (Agreed) I agree that God is not happy with our separations (on His terms: not on your terms, the terms of the CC or any other church nor MY TERMS either), but having a lack of understanding about them will not heal them (some non-catholic Christians have tried to help you understand ).

Yes, I believe that clinging strong to a part of the Truth is better than none at all. however, it does matter about worship. As His creatures, we have an obligation to worship Him as He has directed.

 

[Dokimas]

Yes, of course! You do a lot, since you are very active in your parish and are involved in a number of ministries. Given that you are able to do so much with a truncated Christianity, it boggles the mind to imagine what you might do if you embraced the full Truth!

Cheap shot and uncalled for and probaby very inaccurate.

 

[Dokimas]

Her cross got a lot lighter when she stopped claiming to be Catholic. Protestants are welcome in the Catholic church, and it is noble that she gives such great service to her parish. It is important, though, that her beliefs be recognized for what they are, and what they are not.

I’m beginning to understand the position of some of you here and your need to defend the CC. Tweetymom is so dangerous to your cause she needs to be ‘inquisitioned’. Some here, I’m sure, are proud of your ability to defend the CC against Tweetymom.

 

[guanophore]

If Tweety was baptized Catholic and wanted to continue calling herself Catholic she could have. This has already been settled, established approximately 80 posts ago and in other places elsewhere on CAF and according to the Church you profess to agree with. If she didn’t want to that was her choice as well. No one else’s.

Yes, of course, a person can claim to be anything they want, whereever they like! And I am sure that Tweety represents herself that way in her “real” community. The scandal that it causes here on CAF, though, when people such as yourself claim they are Catholic, yet repudiate Catholicism, is that people coming here to learn Catholic Answers read your posts and can become confused. They may misunderstand that your point of view represents a Catholic one, when it is not. I have great respect for Tweety that she does not do this anymore. It means that she is committed to integrity (walking her talk) and that she does not want to mislead people. Indeed, it is her choice, and a commendable one that I hope you will soon reach also.

 

[guanophore]

-. Many realize what the Bible says and follow it.

Indeed.

The problem lies not in those that embrace the obedience of the faith, but with those who have a “realization of what the Bible says” that is a significant departure from what the Apostles believed and taught. These type of “realizations” result in heresies and misconduct.

-. He hasn’t. There are many core beliefs (ones that really deal with salvation) that are common and find their source in the Bible.

Not really, Dokimas. The faith was whole and entire before any of it was written in the NT. The Teaching of Jesus is the Source of all the “core beliefs” (a term never defined in scripture). The NT is a reflection of the the faith of the Church, not the source of it.

-. It’s the other things that we let our humanity get involved, thus the division. Division started in the 1st century. That’s what Paul in 1 Corinthians dealt with: you say your of Paul, the other Cephas, another Applos … this should not be!!! (my paraphrase)

While it is true that it is our humanity that causes divisions, it is also true that Scripture does not specify which doctrines are “core” (essential) and which are not. As soon as man takes upon himself the task of defining these, rather than accepting the Apostolic Teaching, division runs rampant.

-. He has given His Holy Spirit and shepherds and many of the shepherds have been in the CC, just not all of them and there’s are the only ‘called ones’.

The Apostles taught that authentic shepheds were ordained by themselves, and those to whom they delegated the authority.​

**

-.

[Letting everyone know about the Truth is to speak about Jesus, not bringing into the a specific church as THE way, the truth and the life (that’s how many here speak of the CC … just look at the posts I challenge equating the CC with Jesus.)]

It is Jesus who equates Himself with the Church. I invite you to challenge Him on this behavior. I am sure He can take you on.

-. (No, it’s more like saying ‘I’m more loved by our father that you are and he told me so’ to a fellow sibbling.)

I do think that one can have a more intimate relationship with God when one is obedient to Him. However, God loves everyone he creates. You will not find any Catholic Teaching that purports He loves Catholics “better”. He loves obedience, and to the extent that our separated brethren are separated from his instructions to “do all that I have commanded” they are lackikng part of His revelaton.

-. Jesus is God and He spoke of Himself so we’d know of Him. We do well to speak of Him and not about ourselves unless we testify of the mud, pit, wickedness He took us out of.

Jesus equates HImself with His Church. It is not possible to come into relationship with Him, and not with the Church.**

 

[guanophore]

Guanophore in black; Doki in color:

It is always great to hear when our separated brethren have retained these foundations of the Apostolic Faith. Very condesending!! ‘I’m better than you, so there,’ type of statement.

I don’t understand what you are saying Doki. The Faith was deposted to the Church by God. None of us “own” it, or can claim to be the origin of it. How is it condescending to rejoice when one learns that someone who has been separated from the Source of the faith still clings to some parts of it?

Do you think that Prisca and Aquilla did not rejoice over Apollo?

It matters because it is our duty as His creatures to worship Him as He has directed. Do you lift up holy hands in worship? Do you lay prostrate before Him? Are you thankful in ALL things? Do you esteem others better than yourself (all except non-catholic, probably)?

Personally, I do, but I will concede that there are many Catholics who do not. Do you think these passages are a complete accounting of how God has commanded us to worship Him?

BTW, how do non-catholic Christians not worship God correctly?

That very important question is outside the scope of the thread. Suffice to say tht the historical Church founded by Christ is found in the Aposotlic Succession, and those united to it, and many non-Catholics reject the Teachings on worship that were passed on to us by the Apostles.

**

(not me; it’s you’re understanding that I disagree with), and that it was called Catholic**

So how do you reconcile your view with the historical record? how do you dispense with tall the references in the Early Fathers that the Church was Catholic? When do you think they went off the rails?

Dokimas:

(correct but made up of us sinners which can and does cause problems which Jesus foreknew and uses to His glory),

This is a common and deficient understanding of the nature of Church.

and it has been around the longest because He promised that this would be the case (the CC has been around for over 1500 yrs;

Is that right? Can you show me any documents that will demonstrate how and when the Catholic Church started 1500 years ago? While you are at it, can you please show me how you dispense with the Apostolic understanding of the Church as Catholic?
Dokimas;6368662:

Jewish ‘religion’ has been around 2000*2500 yrs longer

– so what?).

don’t you think that this is because God created and preserved it?

Maybe if the CC would change some of it’s teachings and proclaimations.?.?

So you could become Catholic if Catholicism would conform to your views?

The Catholic Church is not at liberty to change the Teachings of Jesus or the proclamaitons. She is duty bound to preserve that which was committed by the Apsotles, and her proclamations must conform to the doctrine of Christ.

(on His terms: not on your terms, the terms of the CC or any other church nor MY TERMS either),

It seemed clear above that you want the Church to conform to your terms. That would require the abandonment of what was commanded her to preserve that came from Christ. So how can you say not your terms?

The “terms” in the CC come from God, not man.

(some non-catholic Christians have tried to help you understand ).

Do you think I suffer from a lack of understanding of our theological differences?

 

[Dokimas]

Indeed.

The problem lies not in those that embrace the obedience of the faith, but with those who have a “realization of what the Bible says” that is a significant departure from what the Apostles believed and taught. (Getting no where) These type of “realizations” result in heresies and misconduct. (I guess you’re speaking of non-catholic Christians which probably are Christian; looks like, according to you, they (we) have bad fruit.)

Not really, Dokimas. The faith was whole and entire before any of it was written in the NT. The Teaching of Jesus is the Source of all the “core beliefs” (a term never defined in scripture) - (but surely implied - you believe babies must be baptized to go to Heaven; for you that is a core believe for salvation. What other things do you believe the Bible says is core for salvation?). The NT is a reflection of the the faith of the Church, not the source of it. That’s like saying that Jesus is a reflection of the believer… Quite backwards, IMO.

While it is true that it is our humanity that causes divisions, it is also true that Scripture does not specify which doctrines are “core” (essential) and which are not. As soon as man takes upon himself the task of defining these (the men of the CC did just as you suggested - the question remains how much of what those men did comes in fact from God and how much is slightly off?), rather than accepting the Apostolic Teaching, division runs rampant.

The Apostles taught that authentic shepheds were ordained by themselves, and those to whom they delegated the authority. Actually they also involve others - Paul involve Timothy and Titus.​

**

-.

**[Letting everyone know about the Truth is to speak about Jesus, not bringing into the a specific church as THE way, the truth and the life (that’s how many here speak of the CC … just look at the posts I challenge equating the CC with Jesus.)]

It is Jesus who equates Himself with the Church. I invite you to challenge Him on this behavior. I am sure He can take you on. Jesus says the church shed it’s blood for the sins of the world??? We are a reflection; we aren’t God in human flesh!

I do think that one can have a more intimate relationship with God when one is obedient to Him. However, God loves everyone he creates. You will not find any Catholic Teaching that purports He loves Catholics “better”. He loves obedience, and to the extent that our separated brethren are separated from his instructions to “do all that I have commanded” they are lackikng part of His revelaton. Thanks for your opinion.

Mark 9
30 ¶ Then they departed from there and passed through Galilee, and He did not want anyone to know it.
31 For He taught His disciples and said to them, “The Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of men, and they will kill Him. And after He is killed, He will rise the third day.”
32 But they did not understand this saying, and were afraid to ask Him.
33 Then He came to Capernaum. And when He was in the house He asked them, “What was it you disputed among yourselves on the road?”
34 But they kept silent, for on the road they had disputed among themselves who would be the greatest.
35 And He sat down, called the twelve, and said to them, “If anyone desires to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all.”
36 Then He took a little child and set him in the midst of them. And when He had taken him in His arms, He said to them,
37 “Whoever receives one of these little children in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me, receives not Me but Him who sent Me.”
38 Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, **we saw someone who does not follow us **casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.”
39 But Jesus said, "Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me.
40 "For he who is not against us is on our side.

Jesus equates HImself with His Church. It is not possible to come into relationship with Him, and not with the Church. (My guess is He defines His church differently than you do.)

 

[guanophore]

Cheap shot and uncalled for and probaby very inaccurate.

Not at all. I take Tweety at her word. In our discussions, it seems clear that she is very active in a number of ministries. She seems to be a servant of God pretty much 24/7. 'She is just as much in ministry when she is not in chuch as she is when she is there, a role model that no doubt could well be followed by most of the parishioners in her church.

She has chosen to reject significant elements of the Apostolic faith. Since she is a veritable powerhouse with the parts she is willing to accept, it stands to reason that she potentially could bear even more fruit if she were willing to accept the fullness of the faith. I think this is true for all of us.

I’m beginning to understand the position of some of you here and your need to defend the CC. Tweetymom is so dangerous to your cause she needs to be ‘inquisitioned’. Some here, I’m sure, are proud of your ability to defend the CC against Tweetymom.

I have not noticed that the Catholic faith needs any defense against Tweety. The only problematic element was claiming to belong to a faith she did not espouse. She no longer does that.

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

The Holy Spirit

Did the holy spirit interpret the bible for you tweety?

Matthew

 

[guanophore]

Did the holy spirit interpret the bible for you tweety? :confused

Matthew

Based on my previous dialogue with Tweety, I can say that she definitely and honestly believes that this is the case. It also happens with her very personally and individually,independent of any Church.