where is the historical church founded by Jesus Christ?

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rinnie said:
then I would have to show you where the word of God disagrees with you.

The Church is Pepetual

Isaiah 9:
6 of Christs goverment there will be no end
Daniel 2:44 Gods Kingdom will not be destroyed
Matt. Jesus is like the wise man who build his church on rock
Matt 16:18 the gates of hell will never prevail against Christs Church
John 14:16 The Holy Spirit will be with you always
Matt 28:19-20 I am with you all days.

So I would have to say the Good Lord shot you down there. He said he is the CC and will be here until the end of time. THe HS is the advocate teaching the CHurch until Jesus comes again in glory.

So as we see, what you think, and what Jesus says are two Very different things.
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May I ask a question on this and give my comment?
Where does Jesus say he is the CC?

The CC isnot the Kingdom, Heaven is.
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His church on a rock don’t mean the CC but instead its his teachings that Peter and the apostles are to build upon.

The gates of hell will never prevail against Christs Church which is his body not a single man named orginization.See the gates of hell has no power over Christ and can do nothing to destroy him.

The Holy Spirit is with all Christians all the time not just with the CC.

Christ is with all Christians not just the CC.
 
rev_kevin said:
If we don’t agree with the early church why would we use it to bolster our claims?
You use the early church because you believe it but like I said not everyone sees things your way or the Catholic way. You want us to accept your view but you won’t accept ours. Like I said if Peter was fallible and he is the rock then what makes you believe that the CC teachings are infallible and not fallible?
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Because in John 15:16 Jesus chose special men to be his Apostles.
Matt Jesus gave the Apostles the Power to legislate
Matt 28:18-20 Jesus delegates ALL power to the Apostles. (Tell me Rev Kev do you feel that Jesus did not have the authority to do this or what)?

Luke 10:16 Jesus give the Apostles the power to Speak with Christs voice.

Here is why I know Peter is infallible when he speaks with the voice of Christ.

Lile 22:29-30 I confer a kingdom on you, just as my Father conferred one on me, you will eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and you will sit on thrones to judge the twelve of Israel.

Luke 22:31 Peter appointed to be the chief shepherd (that peters faith my not fail) Jesus prayed that Peters faith would not fail. The prayers of Jesus should be enought for anyone.

We cannot and will not ever accept your way Rev Kev because you have no authority. Authority is passed down by the laying of hands straight from the apostles.
 
rev_kevin said:
May I ask what is so funny about that?
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nothing personal rev. you just left that one wide open, it was all in good fun. by the way i have about 5 baptist ministers in my family, one in Tx. near toledo bend. I love every one of them. Ever heard of Rev. Dennis LaFleur?
 
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rev_kevin said:
May I ask a question on this and give my comment?
[SIGN]Where does Jesus say he is the CC?[/SIGN]The CC isnot the Kingdom, Heaven is.
.
His church on a rock don’t mean the CC but instead its his teachings that Peter and the apostles are to build upon.

The gates of hell will never prevail against Christs Church which is his body not a single man named orginization.See the gates of hell has no power over Christ and can do nothing to destroy him.

The Holy Spirit is with all Christians all the time not just with the CC.

Christ is with all Christians not just the CC.
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Easy in acts 9:4 Saul Saul why are you persecuting me, he said who are you sir the reply came JESUS THE ONE YOU ARE PERSECUTING. The first church was called the Christian Church and the second Pope Ignatius was ordained by Peter, He is the first to call the Christian Church the Catholic Church. 🤷
 
rinnie said:
then I would have to show you where the word of God disagrees with you.

The Church is Pepetual

Isaiah 9:
6 of Christs goverment there will be no end
Daniel 2:44 Gods Kingdom will not be destroyed
Matt. Jesus is like the wise man who build his church on rock
Matt 16:18 the gates of hell will never prevail against Christs Church
John 14:16 The Holy Spirit will be with you always
Matt 28:19-20 I am with you all days.

So I would have to say the Good Lord shot you down there. He said he is the CC and will be here until the end of time. THe HS is the advocate teaching the CHurch until Jesus comes again in glory.

So as we see, what you think, and what Jesus says are two Very different things.
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Thank you Rinnie, But I just don’t feel shot down. I know all those scriptures and I agree 100% with each one of them. I just don’t see the CC in them?
 
rinnie said:
Because in John 15:16 Jesus chose special men to be his Apostles.Yes he did but how does that prove the CC?
Matt Jesus gave the Apostles the Power to legislate
Matt 28:18-20 Jesus delegates ALL power to the Apostles. (Tell me Rev Kev do you feel that Jesus did not have the authority to do this or what)?It says, Jesus came and told his disciples, “I have been given complete authority in heaven and on earth There for go and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you, And be sure of this; I am with you always, even to the end of days.” Jesus told them to make disciples of ALL nations meaning ALL men. How does this fit in with Jesus being the CC.

Luke 10:16 Jesus give the Apostles the power to Speak with Christs voice.This is about Jesus sending out 72 disciples and he was instructing the 72 disciples that he sent out to the towns and villages he planned to visit he was not just instructing the 12.

Here is why I know Peter is infallible when he speaks with the voice of Christ.

Lile 22:29-30 I confer a kingdom on you, just as my Father conferred one on me, you will eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and you will sit on thrones to judge the twelve of Israel.Peter is fallible because he is human and when he took Jesus aside to correct him Jesus called him Satan and that you are seeing things merely for a human point of view not form God’s.

Luke 22:31 Peter appointed to be the chief shepherd (that peters faith my not fail) Jesus prayed that Peters faith would not fail. The prayers of Jesus should be enought for anyone.Satan wanted to crush Peter and the other disciples. He hoped to find only chaff and blow it away. But Jesus assured Peter that his faith, although it would falter, would not be destroyed.

I never asked you to accept my way now did I. Just because you believe that the CC is to only one with any authority means nothing to me. I know I have authority that comes from God.

We cannot and will not ever accept your way Rev Kev because you have no authority. Authority is passed down by the laying of hands straight from the apostles.
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Dokimas said:

You mean the quotes from the NT isn’t ‘early church’ enough for you?​

BTW, it’s your attitude that needs work, not your ability to read CC doctrine and writings and tell us your findings.
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We’ve all supplied you with the Scripture verses that support the Catholic position.
I brought in the Early church Fathers because of the hardness of your heart and your rejection of the Scriptures.

**You won’t believe either source so the onus is oon you do disprove what the historic christian faith has ALWAYS taught. **
Oh, and I’m not talking about the 500 year old Protestant version of history - I’m talkin’ the real deal - 2000 years of steady doctrine.

And really try this time and don’t come back until you’re ready to bring some EVIDENCE into the conversation.👍
 
kempo1 said:
nothing personal rev. you just left that one wide open, it was all in good fun. by the way i have about 5 baptist ministers in my family, one in Tx. near toledo bend. I love every one of them. Ever heard of Rev. Dennis LaFleur?
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I took it wrong sorry
No I have never heard of Rev. Dennis LaFleur I live in the Houston area and do you know how many baptist churches there are in the Houston area, too many to count and too many ministers to keep up with all the names. But maybe one day me and Dennis’ path may cross. Ya never know.
 
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rev_kevin:
Because the Church is the mystical Body of Christ.

Tell me Rev Kev if you have authority where did it come from. If it came from God and you have the authority then do you claim that you can give me absolution for my sins?

Do you have the gift of the Holy Spirit through the laying of hands which is Holy Orders

How about the Eucharist?

Last Rites?

How many Sacraments do you acknowledge Rev Kev? Jesus acknowledged them all.

THe RCC has been here for over 2000 years. Can you say that?

Jesus CHrist is the One and only Church.
 
rinnie said:
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Easy in acts 9:4 Saul Saul why are you persecuting me, he said who are you sir the reply came JESUS THE ONE YOU ARE PERSECUTING. The first church was called the Christian Church and the second Pope Ignatius was ordained by Peter, He is the first to call the Christian Church the Catholic Church. 🤷
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So the first church was not called Catholic instead it was called the Christian Church so how can you claim that the CC is the first church. He is the first to rename a church.
 
rinnie said:
Because the Church is the mystical Body of Christ.You said it the Church is the Body of Christ not the CC.

Tell me Rev Kev if you have authority where did it come from. If it came from God and you have the authority then do you claim that you can give me absolution for my sins? yep

Do you have the gift of the Holy Spirit through the laying of hands which is Holy OrdersHands were laid on me

How about the Eucharist?What about the Euchrist?

Last Rites?Yes and I have given them

How many Sacraments do you acknowledge Rev Kev? Jesus acknowledged them all.I’m not Jesus

THe RCC has been here for over 2000 years. Can you say that?And this proves what, that its old.

Jesus CHrist is the One and only Church.
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True the church is his body not a man named church. Remember the first Church was called the Christian Church not Catholic.
 
elvisman said:
Because people of different Protestant sects don’t usually agree - unless it’s against the Catholic Church.
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You are so wrong. I deal with other denominations and we agree on a lot of things not just about the CC. which we never discuss.
 
rev_kevin said:
True the church is his body not a man named church. Remember the first Church was called the Christian Church not Catholic.
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The Catholic Church is the exact same Church that is refered to as the Christian CHurch in Acts. Are you saying the local Church of Antioch and the Church that Ignatius was Bishop of were not the same Christian Church. Prove it, I have showed you that it is and he is the first one who called the Christian Church Catholic.

I never said that THE RCC was a Man named Church. The RCC was started by Jesus Christ and founded on Peter.

Infalibility belongs in a special way to the Pope as head of the bishops Matt 16:17-19 John 21:15-17

The infalibility of the Pope is not a doctrine that sudden appeared in Church teaching it was implicit in the Early Church. THe doctrine of infallibility is implicit in these Petrine texts John 21:15
Luke 22:32
Matt 16:18

No one ever said Peter or the Pope had any power on their own. When the Pope and Peter are talking with the Power of the Holy Spirit which was given to them by God they are infallilble.

Jesus gave the power of the Church to Peter and promised the protection of the Holy Spirit to guide them into all the turth. That mandate and promise guarantee tha the Church willl never fall away from his teachings Matt 16:18 1 Tim 3:15 even if individual Catholics might.

That is the promise we have from God.

No one ever said that they could not have sin,or everything they may have thought on their own was infallible. I said and I will repeat when they speak in the seat of Peter they cannot be wrong. It is the teaching of the Holy Spirit not them.

Are you really a Rev Kev. Because if you are, you seem to be so full of anger. It is very hard to believe if you are. I will pray for you.
 
I just thought I’d put my two cents in here! 🙂

Simply put, unless one disavows, ignores etc. in apostolic succession and the writings of the early Church Fathers, I cannot find a reasonable argument against the current “Catholic Church” being the “historical church founded by Jesus Christ”.
 
kempo1 said:
so i guess your 20 year or 2 week old church has a new divine revalation on scriptures, look to the early church fathers and you will see the Catholic Church is the church Jesus built and God gave it divine revalation and apostolic succesion. Jesus is alive and well in the Catholic church and has never left, he said the gates of hell would never prevail against it ,never!!Luther came from the Catholic Church not protestantism, protestantism came from Luther. And if you say we have the wrong teachings then you must not believe in the bible because all our teachings come from the bible. So what crazy doctrine teaches you that Jesus left the Catholic church because then you are saying Jesus lied and me and your faith is in vain, remember when Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against his church,THE CATHOLIC CHURCH THAT HE BUILT UPON PETER THE ROCK!!!

,
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Oh good we need a Catholic to explain indulgences in another thread, perhaps you could give us the scripture that says a man can pay to have his sins removed or to get a loved one out of purgatory. it sounds a little like fleecing the flock to me. You could either jion the other thread or answer here and I willl cut and paste. please, I dont want a link with some complex Catholic legal jargon or a book recommendation. Just a sound scriptural defense.
 
kempo1 said:
so i guess your 20 year or 2 week old church has a new divine revalation on scriptures, look to the early church fathers and you will see the Catholic Church is the church Jesus built and God gave it divine revalation and apostolic succesion. Jesus is alive and well in the Catholic church and has never left, he said the gates of hell would never prevail against it ,never!!Luther came from the Catholic Church not protestantism, protestantism came from Luther. And if you say we have the wrong teachings then you must not believe in the bible because all our teachings come from the bible. So what crazy doctrine teaches you that Jesus left the Catholic church because then you are saying Jesus lied and me and your faith is in vain, remember when Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against his church,THE CATHOLIC CHURCH THAT HE BUILT UPON PETER THE ROCK!!!

,
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I love this line you guys keep using, "If God didnt do exactly as I think He did, then Jesus lied! How bout this, the leadership of the RCC gets off track on a few doctrines but the effectiveness of Christs work on the cross continues to save millions of souls through her, sounds to me like the gates of hell fail despite the errors of flawed men.
 
elvisman said:
Hey - I don’t care that you presented a Baptist view. My only problem is that you presented it - and taunted me with it - as the truth.

**All I had to do was to present the testimony of the Early Church to demolish **your (and George Eldon Ladd’s) inane arguments.

You are right about one thing - we (Christians) are all children of God. The only difference is that some of us (Protestants) have chosen to divorce ourselves from God’s family.

Okay . . . ummm . . . sunshine? :rolleyes:
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I wonder if its possible that Catholics like yourselves have your favorite “church fathers” and favorite church father quotes, that seem to believe as you do. while other writings from other church fathers pass on into obscurity that might have contradicted your position. this is why I keep asking the same question about the early church that No one seems to want to answer. If the early church believed that the Bishop of Rome was infallible and was the ultimate authority, why did they debate and vote about the deity of Christ???
 
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