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MyRdmrLvs
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I dont think my point was clear without following the other points. I was saying that we ARE conected, we are brothers and sisters in Christ but you can not see that connection visibly:hug1:.
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wisdomseeker
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you cannot say such a thing. Jesus says that His Church will teach the Truth because He gave the Spirit of Truth. what you said contradict what Jesus says. the reason you have doubts is because you dont know the Truth. you go by what you think and ignoring the historical facts of the Church. Jesus said: He would be wiht His Church until the end. if Jesus spoke the Truth then His Church, based on His promises. cannot teach error. it is difficult for one today to know the Truth due to so many groups preaching in the Name of our Lord. that is one more reason why it is so important that all men seek the Truth where the Truth is and not where i think the Truth is. we Catholics are under an authority Jesus and His Church, protestants claim authority for themselves as the Bible. but the Bible itself says no such thing. without the Church you are left with a historical Book without knowing what to make of it.
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wisdomseeker
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and just what you know about indulgences? when people do great things for the Church of God, they will receive indulgences. prove to me this is contrary to God’s will. can some people abuse? sure they can.
you cannot look at the Church with the eyes of modernists. you will have to go back in history in the same way you cannot read the Bible with the eyes of modernists.
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wisdomseeker
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I just thought I’d put my two cents in here!
Simply put, unless one disavows, ignores etc. in apostolic succession and the writings of the early Church Fathers, I cannot find a reasonable argument against the current “Catholic Church” being the “historical church founded by Jesus Christ”.
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wisdomseeker
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what Doctrines? who says any Doctrines of the CC is off track? who determines? you? as far as i know Jesus built one Church and that was 2000 yrs ago. all power and authority was given to Jesus and He gave to the Apostles(His Church).
who decides that the CC has failed? you?
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schaick
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I know that I am in Christ’s body also. I feel a common bond with all Christians, but it seems many Catholics do not feel that same bond with me.maybe Im a vestigial organ! God made me part of the body but you dont see any use for me.
But then I don’t feel that same bond with JWs, Mormons any that say Jesus is a minor god or have scripture outside of Scripture. Well at least the believe that Jesus died for them.
Ephesians 1
22And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way
Colossians 1
24Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. 25I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— 26the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints. 27To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
1 Corinthians 12
12The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 13For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
14Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
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wisdomseeker
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Now, who were the Church Fathers that dissagree with the CC? please tell us. we want to know.
you have to remember that the Church is not one man Church like protestants congregations. the Apostles appointed Bishops and many others in teh Church. as the Church went out into the world and grew these positions had to increase in numbers.
as in Acts, some teachings were popping up in some places. the Apostles got together and decided what the True teach should be. so it has been throughout the years of the Church. this has not changed. the Church protects the Truth of our Lord.
does your congregation exist for 2000 yrs and fought hereticals teachings? which doctrine has your congregation come up with? tell me.
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wisdomseeker
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how are you being used to build the Kingdom of God, if you are outside the Church and fighting against the very Chruch Jesus found?maybe Im a vestigial organ! God made me part of the body but you dont see any use for me.
** To be right in everything, we ought always to hold that the white which I see, is black, if the Hierarchical Church so decides it St Ignatious fo Loyola. **
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schaick
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Scripture should always determine doctrine, that is the final word in the matter.
Catholics limit the one church to just themselves. We see in Acts the Apostrles unlocking the Kingdom,building the Church for the Jews, Samaritans and Gentiles.
With the Scripture being written the Key has been left in the gate so to speak. Anyone can go find a Bible and see the TRUTH that can lead him to salvation.
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Dokimas
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Bla, bla, bla, bla, bla!!!We’ve all supplied you with the Scripture verses that support the Catholic position.
I brought in the Early church Fathers because of the hardness of your heart and your rejection of the Scriptures.
**You won’t **believe either source so the onus is oon you do disprove what the historic christian faith has ALWAYS taught.
Oh, and I’m not talking about the 500 year old Protestant version of history - I’m talkin’ the real deal - 2000 years of steady doctrine.
And really try this time and don’t come back until you’re ready to bring some EVIDENCE into the conversation.
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wisdomseeker
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Ok, and just how do you supposed to bond with us Catholic when you fight the very Church we belong to? just how do you bond wiht us, when you reject the Teachings of the CC?
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To be right in everything, we ought always to hold that the white which I see, is black, if the Hierarchical Church so decides it St Ignatious fo Loyola.**
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Dokimas
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I was going to say similar to this but didn’t want to waste my time. Oops, I just wasted my time.
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wisdomseeker
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this was not my question. i am waiting for the answer to my question.
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To be right in everything, we ought always to hold that the white which I see, is black, if the Hierarchical Church so decides it St Ignatious fo Loyola.**
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rinnie
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Sure we can, we can see it quite clear on how we live our lives.
Tobit 4:15 Do to no one what you yourself dislike
Matt 7:12 Do to others what you would have done to you
John 13:34 Love one another as I have loved you
Romans 3:8 Good intentions do not justify evil means
Romans 14:21 IT is not good to do anything that causes your brother to stumble.
Those are all visible signs my love, given to us by the Grace of God, And when we obey these rules we can not only see a visible connection, we can actually be a part of changing peoples lives with Gods Grace.
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elvisman
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Where do you get your so-called "facts"?
The Church was never named “The Christian Church” in the first century. It was always the Catholic Church. When Ignatius of Antioch writes to the Smyrnaeans at the beginning of the second century - it is alread a well-established name. Just as when he speaks of the Holy Eucharist - it is already a well-established belief.
Acts 11:26 tells us that disciples were first called “Christians”. History tells us that this was almost a derogatory term to identify these early “rabble-rousers”.
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elvisman
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Well, that’s an intelligent, a well-though-out response.
Your bla, bla’s speak VOLUMES about your ignorance my friend.
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elvisman
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**Yes, I certainly see that you are valued and useful. Just come home.maybe Im a vestigial organ! God made me part of the body but you dont see any use for me.
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rinnie
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Not only does the CC disagree with you. Scripture itself does.
The true rule of faith as expressed in the bible itself is Scripture plus Apostloic Tradition as manifested in the living teaching authority of the CC to which were entrusted oral teachings of Jesus and the apostles along with the authority to interpret Scripture correctly.
The bible denies that it is sufficent as the complete rule of faith. Paul says that much Christian teaching is to be found in Tradition which is handed down by WORD OF MOUTH. (2 Tim 2:2)
So how can written scripture be enough when all is not written. And how can the RCC keep it all to themself.
Secondly Read John. It does not say the bible is all we need for salvation, much less the bible is all we need for theology,nor does it say the bible is even necessary to believe in Christ.
The Early Christians never even had scripture, are you going to say they were not saved. They were saved the same way we are by the Catholic Church.
Further it is clear that the oral teaching of CHrist would last until the end of time. 1 Peter 1:25 THe wrod is the good news which has been PREACHED to you.
Paul was quite clear when he told Timothy to pass down oral teachings (TRADITION) he had received from the Apostle. He was to give these to MEN who would be able to teach other perpetuating the chain. Paul was quite clear on this before his death. Read it don’t take my word for it. 2 tim 4:6-8
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schaick
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Tertullian wrote extensively about Christianity, labeled the concept of Trinity and then left the Church to join Montanism?
Many that the Catholic Church labeled heretics weren’t.
The Orthodox Church split from the Catholic Church over traditions! Luther was forced to split over** tradtions**.
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elvisman
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Those early councils - as many of them do - were convened to combat heresies, such as the Arian Heresy in the 4th century. Virtually every heresy begins with the misconception of the nature of the nature of God.
Just as with the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15. It says that there was much debate before Peter, who was the leader, stood up and declared their beliefs - that were are saved solely by the grace of God and that gentile Christians should not be held to Jewish Law customs. Afterward, James, the Bishop of Jerusalem stood up and agreed.
The Pope is not a tyrant nor is he a king. He is here to serve the Church. One of his official titles is the “Servant of the Servants of God”.
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