Where is the justice?

[Black_Jaque]

unfortunately our legal system does not protect us adequately.

I disagree. Frankly I honestly do not live in fear of criminals.

I think it would be much worse to give the government the authority to kill us. Don’t forget Congress has just changed over to a majority of people who think it’s OK to kill innocent babies. If they can justify that, they can certainly justify killing those who defended the babies, or anyone else who gets in their way.

In the U.S. we have the unique environment where you can walk a dark alley and your worst fear is that you may be beaten, robbed, killed and dumped in the river by a crook. Other countries people would fear that they may be beaten, robbed, killed and dump in the river by the police.

 

[dessert]

thanks to OP for update on the case cited
I still don’t understand why the question “where is the Justice?” since it seems the wheels of the justice system are moving along just fine. It also seems there is more to the story that emerges as more details come forward. My only point is that a better question may be “What is the source of evil and violence in our society and what are we doing as a society to combat it?” Since we live in a society whose economic system seems to be based on marketing violence and sin of every kind, I don’t think we have to look too far for the answer.

But what about the 3 strikes and you are out rule? Do you think that there should never be a dp for anything then?
Then we should have just kept Suddam locked up.
There is another set of wheels of justice that role right along within the prison system isn’t there and so sometimes it feels like there isn’t any power int the system at all. but you are right it is being handled by the authorities and that is the way it should be because my mind was being ruled by my emotion. dessert

 

[Black_Jaque]

Then we should have just kept Suddam locked up.

Letting Sadam go would have been his own dp. I don’t think he was much of a threat after being knocked out of power.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

The Church does not agree with you. It says use of the death penalty should be so rare to be almost non-existant.

CCC 2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

Not so fast…I believe my position is in total agreement with the Church. It is a fact that murderer’s are regularly released back into society by the government and it is a fact that many of those released reoffend by committing more murders. Because it is clear that today’s system does not reliably protect society, the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor is capital punishment. As I have said before, when the government demonstrates they can protect society effectively using non-lethal means, I’ll change my view.

Iowa Mike

 

[Black_Jaque]

I. M.

Wouldn’t it be cheaper and easier just to fix the “releasing criminal” problems than it is to make certain a person is guilty before executing them?

I’ve heard that it costs the taxpayers more $ to put a man to death than to keep him in prison for life (and I mean for life).

If you don’t like spending taxes on lawyers playing games in court you ought to oppose the death penalty.

And again, what about the possibility of the D.P. being abused?

 

[Celeste88]

The evil behind wilful murder is the same evil behind abortion.

It is also very clever to use the system to get it to support its evil ends. Only by us being good ourselves and praying for those in authority, is there any hope in a just and supportive society.

Perhaps we could think about doing penance to expiate the evil in society that leads to killing and the death culture which prevails.

Penance to expiate evil? Perhaps the evil lies in poverty, drug abuse, little education? Maybe we should start by giving children a decent start in life?

 

[Wolseley]

The State of Wisconsin has one of the lowest capital murder rates per thousand population in the US. Texas, a strong capital punishment state has one of the highest. It would seem that a violent society breeds more violence. The US has many more murders per capita than the countries of Europe which do not have the death penalty. We are almost alone in the Western nations when it comes to our advocacy of the death penalty and we have the most violent crime. Just a coincidence?

The nation of Switzerland has one of the lowest capital murder rates in the entire world (1.2 per 100,000 in 1997, according to the Swiss Federal Police). The United States has one of the highest (between 9.8 per 100,000 and 5.5 per 100,000 since 1985).

Capital punishment is illegal in Switzerland and legal in the United States, of course; which would seem to fit with your contention above. However…

Switzerland is also one of the most heavily-armed populations in the world, with between 1.2 and 3 million weapons (many of them military-style assault rifles) in private Swiss homes, out of a population of 7.3 million, as opposed to 48 million weapons in private American homes, out of a population of more than 298 million.

In other words, one of the most heavily-armed populations in the world also has one of the lowest murder rates (with around half the number actually committed being perpetrated by non-resident foreigners, not Swiss citizens, by the way), a rate that is actually below many, many other countries with much stricter gun-control laws.

Just a coincidence?

 

[Iowa_Mike]

I. M.

Wouldn’t it be cheaper and easier just to fix the “releasing criminal” problems than it is to make certain a person is guilty before executing them?

I’ve heard that it costs the taxpayers more $ to put a man to death than to keep him in prison for life (and I mean for life).

If you don’t like spending taxes on lawyers playing games in court you ought to oppose the death penalty.

And again, what about the possibility of the D.P. being abused?

Black Jaque,

It’s not about the money. It’s about protecting society. Please understand, I don’t take capital punishment lightly. I’ve been waiting all of my life for the ‘system’ to put murderers away and keep them there. Not only it isn’t happening, it’s actually getting worse.

My goodness…watch the news. People are getting 10 years in prison for murders that can only be described as horrific. Others are sentenced to 25 or 30 years or more but get off in half the time. These are people who committed deliberate, calculated murder. Do you really want one of these people to move in next door to you or someone you love?

I really don’t get it. In Holland euthanasia is widely practiced. All you need is a two family members to attest that an elderly person is suffering physically or mentally and won’t get better and wammo…bye bye. Also Holland hospitals withhold food and nourishment from some sick babies who are not expected to be high functioning or will have other significant handicaps. They actually have some kind of point system, if the baby doesn’t score high enough…bye bye. In Switzerland they are actually talking about euthanizing mentally ill people. In Oregon assisted suicide is legal.

I don’t hear uproar about the above situations, but oh my…put a convicted child killer or serial killer to death and everyone gets excited. Many of the same people decrying capital punishment are outspoken proponents of abortion and euthanasia…many describe themself as Catholics…can any one spell hypocrite?

Yikes, where are the priorities?

Iowa Mike

 

[Sheeniac]

dessert;1826642:

Last week we had a triple homicide in our city. Where is the justice? Is prison too good for the demons that are out there?

Is the Bible also violent?
Is God violent?
As a secular humanist I believe that a person who commits a violent act is responsible, but not possessed by demons as many Catholics believe. Wouldn’t being possessed by demons dissolve any responsibility? One need not look to Christianity, God or the Bible for moral authority (after all God did send his only son to be killed, right?), because we each have in us the ability to discern right from wrong. It is of our choosing as individuals or as a society as a whole what acts we carry out. With that mind, it should be easy to see why I am also against the death penalty.

I believe in Free Will, and that many people choose to do wrong. They justify it to themselves in a variety of ways. Are there some that are truly mentally ill? Yes. Possessed? Maybe. But I believe in accountability too. And I am in favor of the death penalty too.

 

[Sheeniac]

I think the Church teach is that you may use the death penalty to protect the society from being assaulted again by the prisoner.

You may NOT use the death penalty as a means of satisfying justice or revenge.

But what is society? What about the criminals who are murdered by murderers in prison? We have a responsibility to them as well.

 

[dessert]

Letting Sadam go would have been his own dp. I don’t think he was much of a threat after being knocked out of power.

I think the news said that he was sent back to Iraque or whereever and they executed him, so yes he did receive the dp in his own way.
Prisoners in prisons have a way of dealing with their own kind and all you can do is pray that they hear the gospel and repent.
So just being in prison can be a death penalty on its own. dessert

 

[Iowa_Mike]

The nation of Switzerland has one of the lowest capital murder rates in the entire world (1.2 per 100,000 in 1997, according to the Swiss Federal Police). The United States has one of the highest (between 9.8 per 100,000 and 5.5 per 100,000 since 1985).

Capital punishment is illegal in Switzerland and legal in the United States, of course; which would seem to fit with your contention above. However…

Switzerland is also one of the most heavily-armed populations in the world, with between 1.2 and 3 million weapons (many of them military-style assault rifles) in private Swiss homes, out of a population of 7.3 million, as opposed to 48 million weapons in private American homes, out of a population of more than 298 million.

In other words, one of the most heavily-armed populations in the world also has one of the lowest murder rates (with around half the number actually committed being perpetrated by non-resident foreigners, not Swiss citizens, by the way), a rate that is actually below many, many other countries with much stricter gun-control laws.

Just a coincidence?

I find it absolutely fascinating when comparisons between countries like Switzerland and the U.S. are made. It’s a lot like comparing birds and helicopters, the only thing the two have in common is that they both fly. Switzerland has a fairly homogeneous population. Check out Switzerland’s immigration, birth and death statistics. Comparing the melting pot of America to a European country is simply fallacious. There is one interesting exception….check out the impact of Muslim immigration on Holland, the UK and France……there are some interesting dynamics relative to crime statistics and race relations.

It is true that the murder rate in Europe is much lower that the United States, or is it really? The Europeans have found new ways to murder. We fought WWII to get rid of Hitler who was murdering people in massive ways. He killed the mentally retarded, Jews, Catholics, Gypsies, political opponents, non-Arian men, women and children of all nationalities. You’d think the defeat of Hitler would have put this behind humanity. But not so fast, the Europeans now believe that euthanasia of the elderly (Holland), mentally ill (Switzerland) and ill/handicapped babies (Holland, Switzerland) is OK. So the old Europeans, lead primarily by our French friends, go bananas at the mere mention of capital punishment, “Oh my….the old barbaric Americans are executing murderers again. We can’t extradite anyone to America unless the Americans promise not to use the death penalty.” It’s tragic and hypocritical that they don’t give the same consideration to Grandma when she is at her most vulnerable. How about hospitals in Holland that withhold food and drink from infants on the basis of a point system that measures/projects their future quality of life/worth??? And murdering the mentally ill was unthinkable just 50 years ago, but today……

So for me capital punishment is not about deterrence, it’s not about vengeance; what it is about is the protection of society from individuals that murder. Our system does not put murderers in a place where the rest of us can be sure they will never again menace society, until they do……I support the death penalty.

Iowa Mike

 

[dessert]

Go to my link on page one you will see another article about lawyers objections. For Feb 14 2007.

 

[dudleysharp]

Once you execute someone, you can never ever bring them back again. IF you find out you killed the wrong guy, there is absolutely nothing you can do to make it right. No amount of compensation, no amount of apologies can ever make up for killing an innocent guy.
.

Innocents are more at risk without the death penalty.

We all know that living murderers, in prison, after escape or after our failures to incarcerate them, are much more likely to harm and murder, again, than are executed murderers.

No knowledgeable party questions that the death penalty has the most extensive due process protections in US criminal law. Therefore, it is logically conclusive, that actual innocents are more likely to be sentenced to life imprisonment and more likely to die in prison serving under that sentence, that it is that an actual innocent will be executed.

Thirdly, 10 recent studies find for death penalty deterrence. Some believe that all studies with contrary findings negate those 10 studies. They don’t. Studies which don’t find for deterrence don’t say no one is deterred, but that they cannot measure those deterred, if they are.

Ask yourself: “What prospect of a negative outcome doesn’t deter some?” There isn’t one, although committed anti death penalty folk may say the death penalty is the only one. However, the premier anti death penalty scholar accepts it as a given that the death penalty is a deterrent, but does not believe it to be a greater deterrent than a life sentence. I find the evidence compelling that death is feared more than life - even in prison.

In choosing to end the death penalty, or in choosing not implement it, some have chosen to put more innocents at risk.

Furthermore, possibly we have sentenced 20-25 actually innocent people to death since 1973, or 0.3% of those so sentenced. Those have been released upon post conviction review.

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

Dear Dudly,
You cry out in the name of justice, but you seek vengeance.
‘Vengeance is mine saith the Lord’.
We should I believe, treat dangerous people as we treat dangerous animals.
If they serve no useful purpose, they should be placed in absolute confinement, at minimal cost, but without un-necessary torment. They should then be given the alternative of euthanasia, with the prospect of atonement by the harvesting of parts.
All this should be done with humanity, for dangerous people are in some way deranged, and should be judged as deranged, to be placed in a ‘place of safety’, not as evil, to be punished.
Do not forget, we manufacture dangerous people in our armed forces, and deliberately desensitise them to ‘evil’. When a military person goes ‘off the rails’, is he evil, or deranged?
You, being the licensor of your government are responsible for his condition.
Be slow to judgement.
Some dangerous people can be useful.
One was recently wasted, who had devoted the remnant of his life to turning others away from crime.
Another possible service that dangerous people can provide, is in making safe, the fields of battle, littered with abandoned instruments of death and injury. They can do ‘mine clearance’. Yes, some will be killed thereby, but the death will not be a waste, and they will thus provide atonement for their fault, by giving their lives to serve others.
Perhaps by doing this humanitarian service, their souls may be cleansed, and if they survive a quota of tasks, they may be fit to re-enter society. It is certainly clear that dangerous people enjoy dangerous work, it is their need for danger that makes them dangerous.

 

[AndyF]

dessert:

They do get punished as we all do. But it isn’t our option to exact vengeance. The more one thinks of such things the more it eats at him. It is left in God’s hands and our intructions are that unless there is no other option to protect society from further harm from him we can exact capital punishment.

AndyF

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

dessert:

They do get punished as we all do. But it isn’t our option to exact vengeance. The more one thinks of such things the more it eats at him. It is left in God’s hands and our intructions are that unless there is no other option to protect society from further harm from him we can exact capital punishment.

AndyF

Hi Andy,
I believe you made a logical error in your last sentence, I think you actually meant:‘It is left in God’s hands and our intructions are that *****IF ** ***there is no other option to protect society from further harm from him we can exact capital punishment.’
I am in agreement with the above, but I believe that the punishment should be the denial of freedom, and if that denial of freedom has no hope of being recinded at any time, however remote, then euthanasia should be offered as an option. It should not be seen as a punishment, but as a merciful act of atonement.
The euthanasia should be of a method which shuts down the brain, but leaves the rest of the body unharmed, and available for medical use, and harvesting of organs if suitable. This way, the ending of the condemned life can have a positive outcome, both to the soul of the condemned, and to society.
Of course, all this is only applicable, if there is no useful way of using the condemned person, as outlined in my previous posting.

 

[dessert]

The latest is July 12 2007 for the site of the Gazette post #28
The word is there is not enough evidence ;ie; no witnessess, of course how could there be he killed them all.
He is doing a sort of 2 year DUI jail stint, I agrree that another death doesn’t really do him justice and our city needs to pray more and start watching more. He was really after the young daughter, broke into her bedroom window months before the murder so sad how this has all gone. I’m sure whatever happens he will be watched like a hawk on a mouse. After he is out if he gets out then I pray others in the victims family don’t try to act vengeance ither thank you for all who have prayed and kept vigils for us here. We are greatful I am thankful Dessert

 

[Sixtus]

Celeste 88 posted:

Perhaps the evil lies in poverty, drug abuse, little education? Maybe we should start by giving children a decent start in life?

I am all in favour of ‘Rehabilitation’ and opposed to ‘Retribution’. But I fail to see how you can blame a brutal triple murder of mother and children on 'poverty, drug-abuse and little education.

In my experience of working with a very broad variety of criminals, all with only one exception [and he being criminally insane] recognise the boundaries that murder is murder.

 

[Amolibri]

“My goodness…watch the news.” Your first mistake, Iowa Mike.
The “media” is our society’s prime promoter of fear. I agree about the distinction between a homogeneous culture and the US, but in our “advanced” society, the death penalty is an abomination.

When we use fear to make our legal system “work” we lower ourselves and let the state do our murdering for us. Take a look at the nyadp.org site… Your justification by fear -of a murderer moving next door to you is really over the edge. I challenge you to visit a prison. I’ve worked with prison librarians, and have been inside several facilities.

We have the where withall to isolate violent criminals and with our technological knowledge the need for the state to kill is unnecessary. (for all the reasons stated by previous writers).
I was impressed by the stats involving Texas & Wisc.

Life without parole is a sentence used commonly these days.